• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Infant Baptism

Discussion in 'Sacramental/Ordinance Theology' started by Natsumi Lam, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar," - Romans 3:1-4

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  2. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    You are the one telling me Paul didn't mean what he said so what did he mean?
     
  3. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Point? Do you think this is contrary to what he said a chapter before?
     
  4. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Actually, I believe my argument originally was that you were attempting to change Scripture in order to make a point.

    I'm asking you, now, to bother reading Scripture in context and try to understand what Paul was saying.

    My recommendation would be to sit down and read through the entire Epistle to the Romans. And really pay attention to it.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  5. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Do you think Paul wrote inserting chapter divisions in his letters? I was trying to help offer some context. See my above post.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  6. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    To which is a false claim if you would read what i posted for more then to boast your doctrine

    i said is it not logical to which you didn't understand so i explained similarities never did i change scripture as you can see from the picture i posted

    Furthermore i have been going through the NT Matthew-Jude taking notes then restarting for a couple yeare now revelations i do not take notes on as of yet

     
  7. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Its not a division

    Is
    it not obvious he was just clarifying he wasn't saying it was all in vain
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Okay, let's do some context:

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, 'The righteous shall live by faith.'

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

    Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

    Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

    He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

    For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

    But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, 'The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.'

    For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

    Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

    'That you may be justified in your words,
    and prevail when you are judged.'

    But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

    What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

    'None is righteous, no, not one;
    no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.'
    'Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.'
    'The venom of asps is under their lips.'
    'Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.'
    'Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    in their paths are ruin and misery,
    and the way of peace they have not known.'
    'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'

    Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law
    ."

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What am i missing that you must be seeing
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Paul's whole point.

    Paul's thesis for the letter is in Romans 1:16-17

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, 'The righteous shall live by faith.'"

    Paul then goes on a diatribe about the wickedness of the Gentiles, those uncircumcised Gentiles who are doing all that stuff over there.

    But he then pulls a 180 turn,

    "Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things." - Romans 2:1

    Having lulled his Jewish audience into a judgmental kind of agreement, Paul says says that they are no better. Judging "those people" and yet being just as wicked as they are.

    "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. ... For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them" - Romans 2:12,14-15

    The Jew who knows the Law is judged by it; even more the Gentile to whom the Law was never given, though acts in accordance with it, shows themselves more lawful than the Jew who does not abide by the Law though had received it.

    Paul continues,

    "But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, 'The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.'" - Romans 2:17-24

    So being a Jew, having been part of the people who received the Law, making one's boast in God about being a Jew who had received the Law, yet violating its principles renders one's boast in the Law to no effect. After all, as we've seen, the Gentile who never had the Law, yet lives in accordance with its principles, is more lawful than the Jew who having received the Law violates its precepts. Boasting that one is a Jew, boasting in the Law, is to be of no effect; for the Law instead becomes the bitter judge of the one who boasts.

    "For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law." - Romans 2:25-27

    One's circumcision marks them as a member of God's Covenant People, but what good is one's circumcision if they live in violation to the Law? It is as though they were uncircumcised, being a Gentile outside of God's Covenant. Conversely, the uncircumcised Gentile who is living in accordance with the precepts of the Law shows themselves to be more in line with God's Covenant than the circumcised person who lives in violation to God's Law and Covenant. So the lawful uncircumcised Gentile stands even as a judge over the one who breaks the commandment--simply being part of those who received the Law and have Covenant with God through it does not mean anything if one is living contrary to God's Law and acting as though they are outside of it.

    Therefore,

    "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." - Romans 2:28-29

    What does it profit one who being circumcised lives as the uncircumcised? So circumcision which profits the one who lives as the circumcised ought to live, in accordance with the precepts of God's Law which were given to their fathers on Mt. Horeb does not profit one if they live contrary to those very precepts.

    However,

    "Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?" - Romans 3:1-3

    It is not that circumcision is not of any value, that being Jewish doesn't mean anything here; because it was to the Jews that God made His covenant, that He sent the Prophets. The faithlessness of some Jews does not negate the faithfulness of God who gave them His Covenant and promises.

    And here's Paul's point that he's been leading up to for a while now,

    "What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin," - Romans 3:9

    That's what Paul has been building up to. Paul is not contradicting himself from verses 1-3 to verse 9; instead Paul has been trying to hammer the point that Jews are just as sinful as Gentiles. Judging the Gentiles is hypocrisy, boasting in one's Jewishness is empty, speaking of one's circumcision as though it made one better than the uncircumcised is rendered false. For, ultimately, the Law condemns all of us and justifies none of us.

    "'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.' ... Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin." - Romans 3:10-11,19-20

    We are all condemned under the Law, both Jew and Gentile. There is no one who is righteous under the Law, not even one.

    "But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:21-26

    For the Law being the condemnation of both Jew and Gentile, for all having sinned, no one being righteous; yet God by His grace and mercy has provided a righteousness apart from the Law, the righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. So that Christ, by His righteousness, and through faith, might be both righteous and the one who makes us righteous. This is the righteousness of God revealed through the Gospel from faith to faith, as Paul had said right there in his thesis, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile, for through it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The righteous shall live by faith.'"

    And so:

    "Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." - Romans 3:27-30

    So we see, in all of this, the Apostle is not saying that circumcision as given to the Jews was nothing; that is not his point. Of course circumcision was something, it was the sign and seal of God's Covenant with the Jewish people, that they were to be His people who having received the Law at Mt. Horeb were to be a people who walked in accordance with God's precepts to be a light to the nations.

    But that Law was not given to justify sinners. Indeed the faithlessness of the people who had been given the Covenant and promises demonstrates their sin, and that they, just like the Gentiles, are sinners.

    So what good was boasting in one's circumcision if one lived lawlessly? Therefore all boasting in the Law is rendered null and void. Jew or Gentile, it doesn't matter, for all have sinned, all have fallen short, all are condemned under God's Law. All have been found sinners, and therefore condemned. So that no one is with excuse, and no one stands justified before God.

    But God, in His love and kindness, had always purposed another righteousness, the righteousness of His own beloved Son, who having lived, died, and rose again has made peace with God for us. And His righteousness is what justifies us. A righteousness apart from the Law, the righteousness which is through faith.

    But we haven't yet finished where Paul is going, we have only just begun. Paul will continue his brilliant masterpiece of an epistle in the chapters following here.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Sir i don't understand what part of that you think i disagree with

    i never said baptism is nothing nor circumcision

    i only wanted to point that there is more to it then physical and that if the physical wasn't done it is possible

    That the Spiritual has been done for as we see

    Those who have faith like Abraham did but were gentiles

    For we know ONLY God can draw people to Christ
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +14,824
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Under the Old Covenant, was someone a member of the Covenant community without circumcision? Was the physical separate from the spiritual? That's not to say that without the physical circumcision God couldn't act; it's to say that God used the physical as part of the spiritual. These were not separate things. The physical and the spiritual are not at odds, but occur together. Because God works through external, visible means.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. Gregory95

    Gregory95 You will know them by their fruits

    606
    +187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    But i need you to understand just like in the OT just because you were circumcised don't mean you are upright

    My whole point of this was

    Baptism is more then water

    Everywhere i see people beliving THEN being baptized in the NT not once do i recall s person who is unbelieving be baptized THEN believe

    You see this is why those who study without a human telling them what to believe

    Are at odds for from everything ive gathered

    Your doctrine says

    Baptism is to be given to all at infancy not knowing if the infant is even when the time comes they are self understanding be drawn to Christ then if they follow or deny youdont know

    And worse yet truly its a stumbling block for MANY ive talk to DO believe they are saved BECAUSE of baptism as a infant

    Then also it causes a division of a people who are to be of one mind

    And yet still it causes some like the Wentzville Lutheran church to proclaim unbaptized children go to hell do you think the unbeliever will hear this and a seed is planted or do you see this harms the unbeliever view of us

    With all this on the hands of everyone who promotes that what fruit is produced from it

    You have already said it don't effect the child coming to Christ thus its impossible for not doing it to be denying the child Christ for if you are a parent are you not reading the Bible to your children from the beginning thus they are not being denied anything for when they whatever age they may be profess they believe and want to be baptized get to it and baptize them straight away

    Why if you truly believe what you say find this unacceptable for if nithing else its a step closer to stopping the division that the enemy so loves
     
  14. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +9,033
    Belize
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Democrat
    ADVISOR HAT

    This thread was moved from Christian Philosophy & Ethics (where it did not belong) to Sacraments/Ordinance Theology where it does belongs.
     
Loading...