Infant Baptism

[Albion]

Why do people care so much about traditions

If you want to create a new doctrine and want it to be binding on the people, but it is not found in the Bible, what else are you going to lean on? "Tradition" is so vague and unverifiable that its near-perfect.

 

[Albion]

Don't understand how you did t see this



What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 [a]Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Okay. Sure. We do not baptize people who are disinterested in Christ or unwilling to submit to the sacrament.

 

[JacksBratt]

But that seems to be the urging given in posts written by people who are opposed to infant baptism.

Logically speaking, Christian people who think baptism doesn't accomplish anything and that it is just a gesture...ought to be saying to the others, "Go ahead and baptize your infant children if you insist; it doesn't do anything for them, you know!"

The problem that I have is that many, even some here, believe that this, in some way, ensures salvation for the infant.

As soon as you start saying that... you are being a false teacher and misrepresenting scripture.

 

[Albion]

So that's why I've seen Catholics sprinkle?

Where have you witnessed this happening?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Why do people care so much about traditions

i know orthodox say they were told to hold to traditions however i see nopoint for what fruit do you produce by spending money on special garments and such what fruit do you produce when you dress contrary to(modest) normal

Do you think doing special rituals brings people to Christ or turns them off as they see people doing odd things not found in the Bible

That doesnt answer the question.

Both...in cases like buddhism it is easily walk over to similar rituals. In cases like going from non-denom to traditions of man, like rituals, it is a huge reminder of eastern rituals. It would be a huge turn off.

 

[Albion]

The problem that I have is that many, even some here, believe that this, in some way, ensures salvation for the infant.

Earlier, I said that no one thinks that way, but there were a few posters here whose choice of words, although ambiguous, could be made to seem to reflect that view.

If so, they do not know the teaching of the churches that baptize infants. Talking as though they are representative of anything is misleading and mistaken The end.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Odd things not in the Bible?

You mean like revivals, altar calls, and invitation hymns?

I'll bet the vestments our clergy wear during services, and especially my monastic cassock, look more like what Christ and the apostles wore than what people wear to YOUR church.

Oooo spit and fire

 

[JacksBratt]

I do not recall anyone saying that.

I do recall posts which, however, said that this absolutely is NOT the case.

If you read all the posts, you will see that there are definitely those that will not come right out and say it.. but in a round the bush way, they are telling us that an infant must be saved if it is to go to heaven and that baptizing it or reading the bible to it will save it...

 

[JacksBratt]

Earlier, I said that no one thinks that way, but there were a few posters here whose choice of words, although ambiguous, could be made to seem to reflect that view.

If so, they do not know the teaching of the churches that baptize infants. Talking as though they are representative of anything is misleading and mistaken The end.

I understand that.. However, these posters will not come out and state it.

However they skate around and post this and that... put it all together and they are saying that an baby that is not baptized, will go to hell, if it dies.

 

[Albion]

I understand that.. However, these posters will not come out and state it.

However they skate around and post this and that... put it all together and they are saying that an baby that is not baptized, will go to hell, if it dies.

They are NOT saying that. You keep appending that idea to your posts as though replying to a prior comment of someone else, but that's all there is to it.

 

[JacksBratt]

What I do feel it's logical to believe is that anyone who has no encounter with God's means of grace will not be saved by God through God's means of grace.

Well, I totally disagree.

First, IMO, anyone that never reaches a state of mental awareness of their sins... will be held accountable for them.

Second, IMO, if you were to have grown up on some Island somewhere, never seen the bible, never heard of Jesus and never knew or heard anything about God... then.. this verse tells us that you would be held with no excuse by what you saw... and God would judge you on that.

Romans 1:19-20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Gregory95]

If you want to create a new doctrine and want it to be binding on the people, but it is not found in the Bible, what else are you going to lean on? "Tradition" is so vague and unverifiable that its near-perfect.

The Word of God made flesh His doctrine is not sufficient?

 

[JacksBratt]

They are NOT saying that. You keep appending that idea to your posts as though replying to a prior comment of someone else, but that's all there is to it.

I asked, "What happens to a baby that was not baptized and dies"

They said... if a baby is not saved... it will be condemned. (which I utterly disagree with)

I then asked, how is an infant saved... they said by being baptized and reading scripture to it.


So.... conclusion... if your baby is not baptized and you don't read scripture to it... it's not saved and would go to hell if it died........

Simple piecing the quotes together.

 

[Gregory95]

Okay. Sure. We do not baptize people who are disinterested in Christ or unwilling to submit to the sacrament.

A infant???

 

[JacksBratt]

If you want to create a new doctrine and want it to be binding on the people, but it is not found in the Bible, what else are you going to lean on? "Tradition" is so vague and unverifiable that its near-perfect.

Why would I want to "create a new doctrine" for one....And... a doctrine that is not found in the bible.. for two?

 

[JacksBratt]

Okay. Sure. We do not baptize people who are disinterested in Christ or unwilling to submit to the sacrament.

So, how do you know if an infant is interested in Christ and willing to submit to the the sacrament?

 

[timothyu]

Water baptism is rather old school is it not? No one can enter the Kingdom of God without a spiritual cleansing (baptism) so obviously a water baptism is only for entrance into the church or the fleshy kingdom. Are there churches that offer spiritual infant baptism that allows them to break free of the fleshy institutions of man, true repentance?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Well, I totally disagree.

First, IMO, anyone that never reaches a state of mental awareness of their sins... will be held accountable for them.

Second, IMO, if you were to have grown up on some Island somewhere, never seen the bible, never heard of Jesus and never knew or heard anything about God... then.. this verse tells us that you would be held with no excuse by what you saw... and God would judge you on that.

Romans 1:19-20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

To "totally disagree" would mean to believe that people who have no encounter with God's means of grace will be saved by God through God's means of grace.

As for Romans 1:19-20, the natural knowledge of God's to serve as an incentive to spark a search for God. Paul doesn't suggest that the natural knowledge is a means of grace by which people might attain to salvation.

 

[Albion]

I asked, "What happens to a baby that was not baptized and dies"

They said... if a baby is not saved... it will be condemned. (which I utterly disagree with)

I then asked, how is an infant saved... they said by being baptized and reading scripture to it.


So.... conclusion... if your baby is not baptized and you don't read scripture to , . it's not saved and would go to hell if it died........

Simple piecing the quotes together.

First, I don't believe that what they said and what you have paraphrased here in an edited form amount to the same thing.

But second, we will have to have the actual quotes in order to know for sure.

Then, third, what some people who misunderstand the teaching or misunderstood you does not in any way show what the churches which believe in infant baptism--and the many members who really do know what the teaching is--believe about it.

 

[FenderTL5]

First, I don't believe that what they said and what you have paraphrased here in an edited form amount to the same thing.

But second, we will have to have the actual quotes in order to know for sure.

Then, third, what some people who misunderstand the teaching or misunderstood you does not in any way show what the churches which believe in infant baptism--and the many members who really do know what the teaching is--believe about it.

I agree Albion.
Further, another thing that's going to muddy the discussion is that there are differences, some more subtle than others, in Soteriology. So when one is saying "be saved" it may not mean exactly the same thing to someone else.