In terms of spiritual mechanics or dynamics, what does it mean being born again?

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

The process (mechanics) and purpose of the indwelling of the His Spirit (HS) is one that God alone is active (cause) in and we are effected by it according to His purpose

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

The Spirit regenerates. How often have the clear words of Jesus been misunderstood! People universally re-write ‘You must be born again’ so that the phrase reads instead, ‘You must born yourself again!’ Not only does this mis-interpretation make no sense grammatically (an intransitive verb has no object); it makes nonsense of a profound spiritual truth. Just as you did nothing to cause yourself to be born into this fallen world, so you can do absolutely nothing to bring yourself into the divinely renewed world of redemption. You must be born ‘of the Spirit’ (John 3:5, 8). You cannot even coerce the Spirit of God to effect your regeneration. The wind blows where it will — and it is the Spirit’s will, not yours, that causes a person to be born from above (John 3:3). Indeed, if your will is renewed by the regeneration of the Spirit, you will choose to cry out to God for salvation, just as the newborn baby cries out once born. But give the divine Spirit the glory He deserves! Your cry for salvation comes as a consequence of your new birth, and never could be the cause of regeneration. The Spirit Himself sovereignly does this great work of total renewal.
O. Palmer Robertson
“The Wind Blows Where It Wills”

In Him,

Bill

 

[tonychanyt]

Related to step 3.

God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love (1 John 16-18)

Right. So, have you been perfected at the end of this birthing process yet?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete?

There isn't one. He's the same Divine Person.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

There isn't one. He's the same Divine Person.

-CryptoLutheran

Is there a difference between Jacob and Isreal?

 

[Berserk]

There is a 2-fold mechanism; the first is baptism (born of water"--not amniotic fluid!) and the second is the growing "seed" of the Holy Spirit:"
"You have been born anew, not with imperishable but with imperishable SEED through the living and enduring Word of God (1 Peter 1:23)."
This "seed " is not the Word of God itself; rather, the Spirit is seeded through the impact of God's Word.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Right. So, have you been perfected at the end of this birthing process yet?

You misunderstand.

When we are born again, we are "birthed"

However, the scriptural text speaks of spiritual maturity.

Salvation is a life long journey ending in redemption, not a single event.

 

[tonychanyt]

There is a 2-fold mechanism; the first is baptism (born of water"--not amniotic fluid!) and the second is the growing "seed" of the Holy Spirit:"
"You have been born anew, not with imperishable but with imperishable SEED through the living and enduring Word of God (1 Peter 1:23)."
This "seed " is not the Word of God itself; rather, the Spirit is seeded through the impact of God's Word.

Can a person be born again without water baptism first?

 

[Soyeong]

Unfortunately, as is normal in Christianity, scripture verses are cherry-picked and presented outside of the context they were written in... Which is what you are doing, Soyeong.

Thank you, even though I do not agree that I have taken those verses out of context, I do appreciate that you are interacting with the verses that I used to support my position to explain why you disagree.

1 Peter 2:21-22... "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you a model so that you may follow in His steps; . . . Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth;...".

The "...model..." the Lord presents to us in biblical scripture is that of "...Christ also suffered on your behalf..."... And this is the "...model..." that we are to ourselves live by... Suffering on behalf of others.

And this is confirmed by in the verses that came before 1 Peter 2:21-22... Because the preposition/conjunction "...for..." tells us it verses 21-22 is directly connected to what came before.

The context related to 1 Peter 2:21-22 is found all the way back in verses 11-12...

1 Peter 2:11-12... "Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, . . . Having your manner of life excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the matter concerning which they speak against you as evildoers they may, by your good works, as they see them with their own eyes, glorify God in the day of His visitation."

Absolutely nothing in the above-quoted scripture about "...walk in obedience to God's commandments...".

What is being said is that believers should "...abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul,..."... So that we have a "...manner of life excellent among the Gentiles...", and by this, counter any speaking against us regarding our being "...evildoers..."... And this is by our doing "...good works..." so that "...they see them with their own eyes, glorify God in the day of His visitation."

And this is why the rest of your speaking in unbiblical nonsense...

There area lot of things commanded in 1 Peter 2, though they are in accordance with what God has commanded, so I don't see how you can say that they have nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments. Moreover, right after verse 21 says that Christ also suffered leaving us an example that we might follow in his steps, verse 22 says that he committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth, so I don't see how you can accuse me of taking it out of context to say that we should follow his example of refraining from sin. Do you agree or disagree that we should follow Christ example of refraining from sin and having no deceit in his mouth?

You said... "Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it."

First... Sin is NOT the transgression of God's law... Sin... Which was around long before God gave His law to Moses for the Israelites... Is separation from God... And sinning is the activity carried out in separation from God.

Adam and Eve were in sin and sinned when they separated themselves from God by ignoring His instruction regarding eating from the tree of knowledge... And the apostle Paul tells us that "...sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law..." (Rom. 5:13)... So sin is not the transgression of the law, the transgression of the law only gives rise to sin being accounted to a person.

You need to become clear on what scripture actually says about these matters, Soyeong.

In 1 John 3:4, it directly defines sin as the transgression of God's law, so I don't see how you can deny this or say that I am taking this out of context. Furthermore, in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we know what sin is, in Romans 7:7, Paul would not have even known what sin is if it weren't for it, and I don't see how else the Israelites knew what sin if not through it.

God's nature is eternal, so there has always existed a way to act in accordance with or contrary to His nature, and sin is what is what is contrary to God's nature, such as with all of God's righteous laws being eternal (Psalms 119:160) while unrighteousness is sin. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature, which is why sin is the transgression of God's law. Likewise, living in a way that is contrary to God's nature is separation from God. Sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given because people were still able to live in a way that is contrary to His eternal nature before it was given. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, and this will never change, so there were no actions that changed to being in accordance with or contrary to God's eternal nature when the Mosaic Law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.

Living by faith is a matter of living Christ Jesus as our life (Gal. 2:20)... Which is actually something higher than living in obedience to the law... As to live Christ is to live the reality of the law.

The Israelites could keep the law, and yet Jesus told us that John the Baptist, who he said was the greatest among men, was less than the least of those in the kingdom of the heavens...

John the Baptist could say only, "...Here is Christ,...", but the kingdom people can say, "...To me, to live is Christ..." (Phil: 1:21)... Therefore, the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he... Whether a person is greater or lesser depends on his relationship to Christ... Christ is the deciding factor... The closer one is to Christ, the greater one is.

So your thought regarding our relationship to Jesus is in utter error.

God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by living in obedience to it, so that is the way that we live when he is living in us, which is not actually something higher than living in obedience to God's word. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so this citizens of the Kingdom are those who have repented and are doing the will of the Father in obedience to His law. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know Christ, or in other words, how to have a relationship with Him.

Moving on...

You continued, saying... "In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we do not earn our salvation as the result of having done those works and we do not do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing them."

Titus 2:11-14... "For the grace of God, bringing salvation to all men, has appeared, . . . Training us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in the present age, . . . Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, . . . Who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify to Himself a particular people as His unique possession, zealous of good works."

It seems that you do not understand that "...the grace of God..." that is "...bringing salvation to all men..."... Is the Person of Christ Jesus.

Meaning... Christ Jesus, Himself, is the grace of God "...bringing salvation to all men...".

And it is therefore Christ Jesus, Himself, that is "...Training us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in the present age,...".

And this is why, when we are born-again of God, we are translated/transferred into Christ Jesus, and He is brought into us as the Spirit who comes to dwell in our regenerated spirit.

It is by our being in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus being in us... That He is able to teach us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.

And He does this by causing us to take His life and nature as our life and nature... Which is the reality of our being transformed and conformed to His image and likeness (Rom. 8:26 & 12:2, 2 Cor. 3:18).

In Titus 2:11-14, it essentially describes our salvation as being trained by grace to embody God's word, and what you said does not show that what I said was taken out of context or detract from what I said, but rather what you said is in accordance with what I said. God is gracious to us by teach us to obey His word and Christ is the embodiment of God's word, so I do understand the grace of God as being the person of Christ, and the embodiment of God's word saves us by leading us to also embody God's word, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to embody God's word while those who do not embody God's word and not born again.

Moving on...

You continued... "In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting God's law on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith."

The writer of Psalms 119:29-30 was not clear about God's plan in Christ Jesus, and so was still thinking according to the law given to Moses for the Israelites

Yet... If you understand that Christ Jesus is the fulfillment and reality of the law, and read Psalms 119:29-30 (and really, all old testament scripture regarding the law) in this light, you will hopefully have a proper understanding of what is being said.

Everything said in the OT has a plain meaning that is true, it is not taking the OT out of context to quote its plain meaning, and the plain meaning of Psalms 119:29-30 is that it connects the way that God is gracious to us with Him teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law and connects choosing the way of faithfulness with the Mosaic Law being written on our hearts. The OT also has a deeper Messianic meaning that is in accordance with its planing meaning and does not detract from it. The amount of knowledge that the author of Psalms 119 has about God's plan in Christ does not change the plain truth of what he said. Thinking about embodying God's word is the same as thinking about the one who is the embodiment of God's word.

Moving on...

You continued... "God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to believe in God's word made flesh instead of believing in God's word."

John 3:16... "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life."

Notice... Nothing is said about believing the law that was given to Moses... What we are told is to believe into a Person... To believe into "...Him...", and not some written words.

While is is true that believing in Jesus is the way to have eternal life, Jesus also said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), and this is straightforwardly because God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, or in other words, God teaching us to embody His word is teaching us to believe in the one who is the embodiment of His word. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, and in Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life.

Moving on...

You continued... "Again, in 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again,...".

Here again, you are in error... As "...lawlessness..." in 1 John 3:4, is not speaking about the law God gave to Moses... It is speaking to being without any law... Which is what "...lawlessness..." means.

Being without any law in context is referring to God's law, or at the very least is inclusive of God's law, and I don't see any grounds for interpreting it as referring to something other than God's law. Furthermore, God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness. For as long as God's nature has been eternal there has existed a way to act in accordance with His nature, which has been revealed through His law. In other words, the existence of sin requires there to be something that defines what sin is, which is what is contrary to God's nature as revealed through His law.

Moving on...

You continued... "...and in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law."

Romans 4:13

Romans 4:1-5

We do not earn the promise or our righteousness by obeying God's law because it was never given for those purposes, but that does not mean that we should not obeying it for the purposes for which it was given. Furthermore, nothing said in Romans 4-15 or 4:13 contradicts the fact that Romans 8:4-14 contrasts those who are born again of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law.

And again, here...

Romans 8:1-4.

It's not about trying to keep the law God gave to Moses... It's about Christ being in us, and us being in Christ.

In Romans 7:25-8:4, Paul contrasts the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin, so he was equating the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, after all the Spirit is God. Jesus freed us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Law of God and meet its righteous requirement. Again, Romans 8:4-7 contrasts those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. Christ walked in obedience to God's law so that is the way that we live when he is living in us and why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

Moving on...

I didn't cite any scripture because I didn't think I had to.

If you can cite Scripture to support your position, then you should do it, that way people can verify whether what you are saying is in accordance with Scripture and not just things that you made up.

Everyone who is born-again is born of divinity...

1 John 5:1... "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God, and everyone who loves Him who has begotten loves him also who has been begotten of Him."

To be "...begotten of God..." is to be begotten of divinity.

Therefore... To be born-again of God is to be a divine being... Which, in the case of a human... Is to be divinely human... Divine according to God's life and nature... Human according to the created vessel that we were created by God to be, which is composed of our body, soul, and spirit.

When a person is born-again of God, this person's spirit is immediately regenerated with God as its content.

Because of this, those who are born-again of God have the opportunity to cooperate with the inward-dwelling God for the working out of our salvation, through the renewing of our human faculty that is our soul (mind, emotion, and will).

To be born-again of God ultimately means... To contain and express God... This is why biblical scripture tells us that we have the hope of glory in Christ Jesus... As we will express God... And God expressed is... Glory.

I've cited verses that connect being born again and believing in Jesus with living in obedience to God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature, which is the way to express God. For example, when we do good works, we are expressing, experiencing, loving, believing in, and testifying about God's goodness, which is why obeying His instructions for how to do good works brings glory to Him (Matthew 5:13-16).

 

[Berserk]

Can a person be born again without water baptism first?

Jesus and Peter treat baptism as an essential part of the born again process:

"And baptism... now saves you, not through a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21)."

But that does not necessarily mean that the regenerating work of the Spirit can't precede baptism (see Acts 10:44-47). John's image of the Spirit as an unpredictable wind allows for a variety of timing for receiving the Spirit.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That's a long process for just giving birth or just awakening

Have you arrived at the end of this process yet?

I think it is a dynamic life long process for all of us. Just like knowing God who is infinite. There is no end.

 

[Derf]

I used to wonder greatly at the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. It didn't seem like the two were talking about the same things.

Nicodemus starts: "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

Jesus obviously anticipates that Nicodemus wants to know or needs to know more than he is asking, and completely skips all the niceties of small talk: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

Nicodemus responds: "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Jesus seems not to hear him and repeats himself: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

But the KJV is a little archaic. What Jesus says is "Truly, truly...". In other words, Jesus seems to be confirming what Nicodemus says about re-entering one's mother's womb to be born again.

When Nicodemus questions him once more, "How can these things be?" we can see that Jesus's answer about being born again is still bothering him. How can one enter a second time enter his mother's womb and be born???

Jesus confirms it one more time, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" Knowest not what things? The thing about being born again.

I'd never seen anything in the Old Testament scriptures, which Nicodemus would have known extremely well, which talks about being born again, especially in the way Jesus was speaking. Have you?

Here's what I came up with.
Psalm 139:13, 15 KJV - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. ... My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
David associates his mother's womb with "the lowest parts of the earth". Jesus associates the grave with "the heart of the earth", as part of the sign of Jonah. Jonah says that he was in the grave, of sorts, when in the belly of the fish.
Matthew 12:40 KJV - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jonah 2:6 KJV - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Thus, as Jonah was released from the grave, so Jesus will be released from the grave, so everyone desiring to enter the kingdom of God must be released from the grave. This is the mechanics of being born again. Fortunately, when we are in Christ, we are released from the grave in His resurrection. We HAVE been, in Him, put back into our mothers' wombs (the heart of the earth, as per David) and released.

Therefore, Nicodemus should have understood already about the mechanics of being born again, which is the same as receiving life back from the dead--the whole purpose of Jesus's coming to earth as a man.

 

[Above & Beyond]

Thank you, even though I do not agree that I have taken those verses out of context, I do appreciate that you are interacting with the verses that I used to support my position to explain why you disagree.


There area lot of things commanded in 1 Peter 2, though they are in accordance with what God has commanded, so I don't see how you can say that they have nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments. Moreover, right after verse 21 says that Christ also suffered leaving us an example that we might follow in his steps, verse 22 says that he committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth, so I don't see how you can accuse me of taking it out of context to say that we should follow his example of refraining from sin. Do you agree or disagree that we should follow Christ example of refraining from sin and having no deceit in his mouth?


In 1 John 3:4, it directly defines sin as the transgression of God's law, so I don't see how you can deny this or say that I am taking this out of context. Furthermore, in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we know what sin is, in Romans 7:7, Paul would not have even known what sin is if it weren't for it, and I don't see how else the Israelites knew what sin if not through it.

God's nature is eternal, so there has always existed a way to act in accordance with or contrary to His nature, and sin is what is what is contrary to God's nature, such as with all of God's righteous laws being eternal (Psalms 119:160) while unrighteousness is sin. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature, which is why sin is the transgression of God's law. Likewise, living in a way that is contrary to God's nature is separation from God. Sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given because people were still able to live in a way that is contrary to His eternal nature before it was given. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, and this will never change, so there were no actions that changed to being in accordance with or contrary to God's eternal nature when the Mosaic Law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.


God's law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he embodied God's word by living in obedience to it, so that is the way that we live when he is living in us, which is not actually something higher than living in obedience to God's word. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so this citizens of the Kingdom are those who have repented and are doing the will of the Father in obedience to His law. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know Christ, or in other words, how to have a relationship with Him.


In Titus 2:11-14, it essentially describes our salvation as being trained by grace to embody God's word, and what you said does not show that what I said was taken out of context or detract from what I said, but rather what you said is in accordance with what I said. God is gracious to us by teach us to obey His word and Christ is the embodiment of God's word, so I do understand the grace of God as being the person of Christ, and the embodiment of God's word saves us by leading us to also embody God's word, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to embody God's word while those who do not embody God's word and not born again.


Everything said in the OT has a plain meaning that is true, it is not taking the OT out of context to quote its plain meaning, and the plain meaning of Psalms 119:29-30 is that it connects the way that God is gracious to us with Him teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law and connects choosing the way of faithfulness with the Mosaic Law being written on our hearts. The OT also has a deeper Messianic meaning that is in accordance with its planing meaning and does not detract from it. The amount of knowledge that the author of Psalms 119 has about God's plan in Christ does not change the plain truth of what he said. Thinking about embodying God's word is the same as thinking about the one who is the embodiment of God's word.


While is is true that believing in Jesus is the way to have eternal life, Jesus also said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28), and this is straightforwardly because God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, or in other words, God teaching us to embody His word is teaching us to believe in the one who is the embodiment of His word. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, and in Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life.


Being without any law in context is referring to God's law, or at the very least is inclusive of God's law, and I don't see any grounds for interpreting it as referring to something other than God's law. Furthermore, God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness. For as long as God's nature has been eternal there has existed a way to act in accordance with His nature, which has been revealed through His law. In other words, the existence of sin requires there to be something that defines what sin is, which is what is contrary to God's nature as revealed through His law.


We do not earn the promise or our righteousness by obeying God's law because it was never given for those purposes, but that does not mean that we should not obeying it for the purposes for which it was given. Furthermore, nothing said in Romans 4-15 or 4:13 contradicts the fact that Romans 8:4-14 contrasts those who are born again of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law.


In Romans 7:25-8:4, Paul contrasts the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin, so he was equating the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit, after all the Spirit is God. Jesus freed us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Law of God and meet its righteous requirement. Again, Romans 8:4-7 contrasts those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. Christ walked in obedience to God's law so that is the way that we live when he is living in us and why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).


If you can cite Scripture to support your position, then you should do it, that way people can verify whether what you are saying is in accordance with Scripture and not just things that you made up.


I've cited verses that connect being born again and believing in Jesus with living in obedience to God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature, which is the way to express God. For example, when we do good works, we are expressing, experiencing, loving, believing in, and testifying about God's goodness, which is why obeying His instructions for how to do good works brings glory to Him (Matthew 5:13-16).

That's a bit of a book you wrote there, Soyeong... I'll just take your thoughts one at a time...

First one...

You said... "There are a lot of things commanded in 1 Peter 2, though they are in accordance with what God has commanded, so I don't see how you can say that they have nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Okay... So before I go any further... Get this straight... I don't do people being dishonest regarding my speaking... And you were just dishonest regarding my speaking in your above-quoted comment.

Here's why I can say this...

I never said, nor suggested that what is said in 1 Peter chapter two "...nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Here's what I actually said...

"The context related to 1 Peter 2:21-22 is found all the way back in verses 11-12...

1 Peter 2:11-12... "Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, . . . Having your manner of life excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the matter concerning which they speak against you as evildoers they may, by your good works, as they see them with their own eyes, glorify God in the day of His visitation."

Absolutely nothing in the above-quoted scripture about "...walk in obedience to God's commandments..."....".

See that... My reference was to 1 Peter 2:11-12... That's two verses of chapter 2, not the entire chapter.

Check yourself and get back to me.

Having given you the above correcting word... I'll add this now...

In the entire chapter 2 of 1 Peter there is absolutely NO reference to any commandment of God, or "...walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Absolutely nothing.

The closest any speaking in 1 Peter chapter two gets is in 1 Peter 2:11... "Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul,...".

The Greek word translated into English as "...entreat..." means admonish, exhort, teach, instruct... Not command.

So what we have is you misrepresenting what biblical scripture actually says... And doing so because you possibly think you can get away with doing it... Another dishonest act on your part.

Is it at all possible for you to present something honest, Soyeong?

I hope so... As if not, then all of my speaking in response to what you say will simply be exposing and correcting your dishonesty... Which is not the way of proper fellowship.

Before you say anything... Take time to check if what you're saying is honest... Including your presentation of biblical scripture.

Amen.

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus and Peter treat baptism as an essential part of the born again process:

"And baptism... now saves you, not through a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21)."

But that does not necessarily mean that the regenerating work of the Spirit can't precede baptism (see Acts 10:44-47). John's image of the Spirit as an unpredictable wind allows for a variety of timing for receiving the Spirit.

Define born again.

Define regeneration.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is there a difference between Jacob and Isreal?

No, he is the same person.

Jacob didn't become someone else when God gave him the name Israel. But the name "Israel" is significant in the context in which it was given. So much so that it came to identify the whole of the nation that came from Jacob, the people who wrestle with God, struggling with God's covenant with them.

The title of Paraclete given to the Holy Spirit speaks to the Holy Spirit's work to comfort and guide the Church, He is the One who not only guides the apostles themselves to all truth (and through them, the whole Church benefits) as the Spirit of Truth, but He works through the preaching of the Law to convict us of our sin, and through the preaching of the Gospel to work, strengthen, and create faith. He is, therefore, our Comforter, the One who bears us in Christ through faith, and Who bears Christ to us through Word and Sacrament. So that we attribute to Him the work of regeneration, we attribute to Him the work of conversion, we attribute to Him the work of sanctification, etc.

Not that the Holy Spirit does this to the exclusion of the other two Divine Persons, obviously; since we cannot separate the Divine Persons, for the Three are One in the Unity of the Divine Essence--for the Son is only-begotten of the Father from all eternity as God of God, and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father [and the Son] as the Spirit of Father and Son--for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial. But to the Holy Spirit is attributed the power and work of regeneration, conversion, of working and creating faith, of sanctification, and so on and so forth.

Thus He is our Comforter, the One who brings Christ into our hearts and who bears us in Christ before the Father--it is the Holy Spirit who unites us to Christ, and it is in Christ that we are found blameless before the Father on account of Christ's finished and perfect work, granted to us as the gift of God through faith. So that we can be called righteous before God, not on account of anything we have done; but on account of what Christ alone has done for us.

So no, there's no difference, He is Himself. In the same way that the Second Person of the Trinity is called both Only-begotten Son and also Word, He is eternally Himself, but He is called both Son and Word. The Holy Spirit is, likewise, called Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Son, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, Comforter (Paraclete), etc. He is still Himself, the Eternal Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus and Peter treat baptism as an essential part of the born again process:

"And baptism... now saves you, not through a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21)."

But that does not necessarily mean that the regenerating work of the Spirit can't precede baptism (see Acts 10:44-47). John's image of the Spirit as an unpredictable wind allows for a variety of timing for receiving the Spirit.

From the Lutheran POV we point to Mark 16:16. That baptism is essential to God's regenerative work, as the Lord Jesus Himself taught us in John 3:5, and which St. Paul alludes to in Titus 3:5 is unmistakable and obvious. But that doesn't mean the opposite is true: that a person cannot be regenerated apart from the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

As the Lord says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned." Baptism conveys the gift and promise, and it is real and efficacious for God has connected His word to the water (Ephesians 5:26), and it is the word which works and creates faith (Romans 10:17); but the absence of baptism doesn't deprive a person of God's word, deprive a person of saving faith, etc.

So Baptism is necessary, we would say, but not "absolutely necessary". The ordinary means which God uses to give us new birth is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, it is how the vast majority of Christians have throughout history entered into the Household of Faith. Now, that doesn't mean it's the only possible way a person can come to faith, or that either due to ignorance or circumstance a person may not yet have received baptism though they have believed for a while, and it is as though that faith were somehow deficient. Faith is never deficient, because it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).

This is why trying to turn God's saving work into a system, or a program, or some kind of mechanism just doesn't work. Salvation isn't a twelve step program that we are supposed to follow to attain a specific end point. The journey of faith is quite different for every Christian.

Some people were born and raised in the faith, some were baptized as infants, some were baptized later. Other people are converted later as adults.

But like the Lord teaches in the Parable of the Laborers, whether one was working in the field from early morning or working in the field just minutes before night time, the owner of the field has promised the same wages for all. Whether we came to faith early through our baptism as infants and raised in the faith by our parents; or whether we came late, even on our death bed, even without a chance to be baptized before expiring--it is the same Lord who grants to us the gift of eternal life by what He has done alone.

That doesn't mean we should put off till tomorrow what we can do today, when the Ethiopian eunuch saw water, he said to Philip, "Look, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized?" Because Christ Himself instituted this precious and holy Sacrament for our benefit. Baptism was instituted by the Lord for us, that through this washing of water with the word (Ephesians 5:26), we are born anew by the Spirit, by the grace of God, that we should be adopted as children by grace and become members of God's family, the Church, of which Christ is Head and Foundation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

No, he is the same person.

Jacob didn't become someone else when God gave him the name Israel. But the name "Israel" is significant in the context in which it was given. So much so that it came to identify the whole of the nation that came from Jacob, the people who wrestle with God, struggling with God's covenant with them.

The title of Paraclete given to the Holy Spirit speaks to the Holy Spirit's work to comfort and guide the Church, He is the One who not only guides the apostles themselves to all truth (and through them, the whole Church benefits) as the Spirit of Truth, but He works through the preaching of the Law to convict us of our sin, and through the preaching of the Gospel to work, strengthen, and create faith. He is, therefore, our Comforter, the One who bears us in Christ through faith, and Who bears Christ to us through Word and Sacrament. So that we attribute to Him the work of regeneration, we attribute to Him the work of conversion, we attribute to Him the work of sanctification, etc.

Not that the Holy Spirit does this to the exclusion of the other two Divine Persons, obviously; since we cannot separate the Divine Persons, for the Three are One in the Unity of the Divine Essence--for the Son is only-begotten of the Father from all eternity as God of God, and the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father [and the Son] as the Spirit of Father and Son--for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial. But to the Holy Spirit is attributed the power and work of regeneration, conversion, of working and creating faith, of sanctification, and so on and so forth.

Thus He is our Comforter, the One who brings Christ into our hearts and who bears us in Christ before the Father--it is the Holy Spirit who unites us to Christ, and it is in Christ that we are found blameless before the Father on account of Christ's finished and perfect work, granted to us as the gift of God through faith. So that we can be called righteous before God, not on account of anything we have done; but on account of what Christ alone has done for us.

So no, there's no difference, He is Himself. In the same way that the Second Person of the Trinity is called both Only-begotten Son and also Word, He is eternally Himself, but He is called both Son and Word. The Holy Spirit is, likewise, called Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Son, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, Comforter (Paraclete), etc. He is still Himself, the Eternal Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

Is there a difference between water and H20?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is there a difference between water and H20?

Nope.

And while we're at it, there's no difference between a cat and a feline, between a dog and a canine, between pigs and swine, dirt and earth, or CO2 and carbon dioxide,

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

Nope.

And while we're at it, there's no difference between a cat and a feline, between a dog and a canine, between pigs and swine, dirt and earth, or CO2 and carbon dioxide,

-CryptoLutheran

Let proposition P1 = The Paraclete showed up in the OT.

True?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Is there a difference between water and H20?

H20 is water, but drinking water has more than just 2Hs and 1O.

See also.

Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality: Guideline Technical Document – pH - Canada.ca

Health Canada technical document related to the quality of drinking water in Canada

www.canada.ca

https://www.ars.usda.gov/arsuserfiles/80400525/articles/ndbc32_watermin.pdf

 

[Soyeong]

That's a bit of a book you wrote there, Soyeong... I'll just take your thoughts one at a time...

First one...

You said... "There are a lot of things commanded in 1 Peter 2, though they are in accordance with what God has commanded, so I don't see how you can say that they have nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Okay... So before I go any further... Get this straight... I don't do people being dishonest regarding my speaking... And you were just dishonest regarding my speaking in your above-quoted comment.

Here's why I can say this...

I never said, nor suggested that what is said in 1 Peter chapter two "...nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Here's what I actually said...

"The context related to 1 Peter 2:21-22 is found all the way back in verses 11-12...

1 Peter 2:11-12... "Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, . . . Having your manner of life excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the matter concerning which they speak against you as evildoers they may, by your good works, as they see them with their own eyes, glorify God in the day of His visitation."

Absolutely nothing in the above-quoted scripture about "...walk in obedience to God's commandments..."....".

See that... My reference was to 1 Peter 2:11-12... That's two verses of chapter 2, not the entire chapter.

Check yourself and get back to me.

Having given you the above correcting word... I'll add this now...

In the entire chapter 2 of 1 Peter there is absolutely NO reference to any commandment of God, or "...walking in obedience to God's commandments."

Absolutely nothing.

The closest any speaking in 1 Peter chapter two gets is in 1 Peter 2:11... "Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul,...".

The Greek word translated into English as "...entreat..." means admonish, exhort, teach, instruct... Not command.

So what we have is you misrepresenting what biblical scripture actually says... And doing so because you possibly think you can get away with doing it... Another dishonest act on your part.

Is it at all possible for you to present something honest, Soyeong?

I hope so... As if not, then all of my speaking in response to what you say will simply be exposing and correcting your dishonesty... Which is not the way of proper fellowship.

Before you say anything... Take time to check if what you're saying is honest... Including your presentation of biblical scripture.

Amen.

In 1 Peter 2:21, it says "for this you have been called", so at least everything that Paul spoke in regard to them being called is within the context of that verse starting with them being obedient children who are commanded to be holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:14-16), through all of 1 Peter is within its context, so I honestly didn't think that you would object to any part of 1 Peter being included in a discussion about its context, and it is ridiculous for you to consider that to be dishonest. There are many things instructed in 1 Peter 1:1-2:21 that are in accordance with what God has commanded, and that is also true of 1 Peter 2:11-21, so again it is ridiculous to consider for you to consider it to be dishonest to refer to them as such. In 1 Peter 2:9-11, Paul urged them to do things that were in accordance with their calling, which in context is referring to them doing things that God has commanded. For example, in regard to 1 Peter 2:11-13, God has commanded to abstain from passions of the flesh and to do good deeds, so even if we're only talking about 1 Peter 2:11-21, it would be false to claim that there is no reference to any command of God. Likewise, claiming that it has no reference to any command of God is essentially the same as claiming that it has nothing to do with walking in obedience to God's commandments.

So not only is your quibbling without merit, it misses the main point that 1 Peter 2:21-22 connects following Christ's example with refraining from sin, and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). Again, do you think that we should not follow Christ's example of refraining from sin? Again, do you agree or disagree that we should follow Christ example of refraining from sin and having no deceit in his mouth?

So yes, it is possible for me to present something honest, as I have done, is it possible for you to do that?