In search of

[timothyu]

You're welcome.

The failure to love is a complicated human phenomenon.

I would say it is based on love of 'self'.

A log in one's own eye is often abuse towards another based on 'self' interest

 

[Paidiske]

I think it's not necessarily that simple. Especially when one's sense of self has been malformed in the first place.

One of the consequences of the fall is that a healthy "self," in relation to God and others, is not at all a given.

 

[Jipsah]

'self' is the downfall of man and creates all our woes.

a very Buddhist viewpoint.

 

[timothyu]

a very Buddhist viewpoint.

So the entire Bible was based on Buddhism?

 

[FireDragon76]

I think it's not necessarily that simple. Especially when one's sense of self has been malformed in the first place.

One of the consequences of the fall is that a healthy "self," in relation to God and others, is not at all a given.

I've been studying adult human development in the past few months, particularly theories of the Harvard psychologist, Robert Kegan, and the developmental psychologist Clare Graves (whose ideas were later taken up and developed as Spiral Dynamics in the human potential movement). According to what I've studied, it's not inevitable that people get much past the bare minimum to be a somewhat functioning adult and hold down a job.

In the US, a large minority of the population is operating at a relatively primitive level of development, focused on traditional social norms, or worse, on purely egotistical power-seeking behaviors. They haven't begun to think critically about themselves and their lives, deconstruct and unpack the baggage of their upbringing and cultural expectations, and try to work through for themselves what is actually helpful for their situation in terms of personal growth.

Studying the Enneagram with Richard Rohr has helped me to understand people can't all look the same as they develop and grow, because they all have different starting points in terms of their basic personalities. What's conventionally considered healthy behavior for one person could be toxic for another person.

I think it's not necessarily that simple. Especially when one's sense of self has been malformed in the first place.

One of the consequences of the fall is that a healthy "self," in relation to God and others, is not at all a given.

Not to mention, people experience the self differently. Women and marginalized groups sometimes suffer from being dispossesed or disenfranchised, not being "selves" in the first place, in the sense western cultures usually thinks of the self (usually based on the assumptions of the dominant white, male, middle-class majority).

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe part of the issue why people don't develop further: too many of us enable others in the name of upholding some social convention or given expectation of who we should be, and become co-dependent in unhealthy relationships. We also don't have alot of guidance on what is healthy behavior anymore, especially in modern society with its libertarian notions of personal freedom and fulfillment, which are oriented towards maximizing self-expression and material achievement only (basically, one one personality type has a realistic chance to thrive under this default mindset, everybody else is almost guaranteed a certain level of dysfunction).

This is where studying the Enneagram has been helpful for me as well. I'm a type 4 with a wing of 5, the Romantic, but also an Investigator, to a slightly lesser degree. Years ago, I was a people-pleaser and deffered to authority figures, and I thought that was the "best" way to be a Christian. I am a highly sensitive person, and I developed fibromyalgia as I slowly took on the worries, concerns, and even opinions and customs of others, degenerating towards the type 2 (the Helper). I should have been focused on being more like a Type 1, the Reformer (oriented towards truth and moral principles), and a type 8, the Challenger (more self-assertive). Since that time, I've been learning to take care of myself, to be unconventional if necessary (as a Romantic it's basically who I am, anyways), and my fibromyalga has mostly gone away over the years.

 

[eleos1954]

Christians link themselves to God.

Do you seek God, or the will of God ?

"link" ..... relationship with God .... sure. The will of God is that we overcome sin ..... Jesus helps us to do that when we have an ongoing relationship with Him.

 

[timothyu]

The will of God is that we overcome sin ....

Sin being what?

 

[eleos1954]

Sin being what?

Jus what HIs Word says .... sin is transgression of the law.

Berean Standard Bible
Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4​

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

 

[timothyu]

Jus what HIs Word says .... sin is transgression of the law.

Sin existed before the law. Re-define please

 

[Jipsah]

So the entire Bible was based on Buddhism?

Roughly none of it. Where in the Bible did you find "self is the downfall of man and creates all our woes?

 

[timothyu]

Roughly none of it. Where in the Bible did you find "self is the downfall of man and creates all our woes?

From beginning with Eve to end... where all through God says put my will ahead of yours. The entire Bible is an example of what happens when man tries to run the show.

 

[David's Harp]

Because some people only seek God but have no concept of following His will over our own.

Can you seek God without following His Will? Is this not akin to to someone entering His presence by another way? (John 10:1)

Another question to consider is: are you seeking God (who may be impersonal) over Jesus (who is eminently personal)?

 

[timothyu]

Can you seek God without following His Will?

You can seek God anyway you want but it doesn't mean upon finding Him you will obey. People and church often use God to justify their own existence without doing His will. Many profit wildly following the self interest will of man. Some even act in the ways of the secular governments of man using God to justify their power grabs. They know He is there but don't follow, just as many talk about Jesus but ignore His Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

Another question to consider is: are you seeking God (who may be impersonal) over Jesus (who is eminently personal)?

Do not both lead to the same place.. the Kingdom/governance of God?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Because some people only seek God but have no concept of following His will over our own.

The body of Christ can’t even agree what the will of God is so how can they follow it. I see that all the time on these forums. Even when it’s spelled out in black and white, for example scripture says it’s Gods will that none should parish, but man makes up all kinds of ways to say that it’s not really Gods will because they know what his will is.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

Lol

it’s almost as if God has left our interpretation of his Word to our own conscience.

 

[timothyu]

The body of Christ can’t even agree what the will of God is so how can they follow it.

Probably due to the fact if they looked to what God's will isn't, they'd have to look at themselves to understand His will is opposite to ours which is based on self (interest, justification, centeredness, serving, determination, etc.)

 

[eleos1954]

Sin existed before the law. Re-define please

Law has always been ..... the first sin was committed by lucifer and the 1/3 angels in heaven.

Judgement ..... there can't be judgement unless there is a standard (law).

to judge judiciously, to bring to trial, to be brought to account, to administer government over

1 John 3:4​

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

 

[timothyu]

God's law was always His will first. Our OT version of that law came later.