In Context: The Beast of Revelation 13

[OttawaUk]

Zadock, exactly.

Revelation 13 actually reveals a Satanic Trinity.

Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet (Second Beast).

Satan is a master deceiver and mimics our true God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Barraco, at least you agreed that it is the war in Heaven that precedes Satan's casting out. Its not possible to determine from scripture when this event will happen.

OU

 

[Tyndale]

Utter hogwash. Calling fire down from heaven at the snap of his fingers, THAT is the kind of lying wonder the world will witness the false christ doing.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do...

I think you should begin to understand that the revelation is a vision. It cannot be taken literally word for word. It's about the battle of good over evil and how we as God's people identify those lies.

 

[Zadok7000]

I think you should begin to understand that the revelation is a vision. It cannot be taken literally word for word. It's about the battle of good over evil and how we as God's people identify those lies.

Ahhh...it's another one of those "you're not enlightened enough to get it" posts...got it.

As I said, HOGWASH.

 

[Tyndale]

Zadok7000, do you believe in the Baptismal Regeneration, Sacramental grace, The Absolution of the Confessional, Transubstantiation, the mass, and extreme unction ??

would you be so quick to call these inventions Hogwash?

 

[Zadok7000]

Zadok7000, do you believe in the Baptismal Regeneration, Sacramental grace, The Absolution of the Confessional, Transubstantiation, the mass, and extreme unction ??

Am I a Roman Catholic? No, I am not. So kindly stop your fishing expidition.

 

[Barraco]

The 2nd beast, the Pseudoprophetes, is an individual (as compared to the 1st beast, which one could call an organisation). He cannot, in ANY way, be the "priests of Rome".



Utter hogwash. Calling fire down from heaven at the snap of his fingers, THAT is the kind of lying wonder the world will witness the false christ doing.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do...

wouldn't it seem unbiblical to transfer the interpretation of a beast from a kingdom to an individual? It doesn't make sense anyhow.

May I make a suggestion? Revelation describes the beast as having the appearance of a leopard, feet of a bear, and mouth of a lion. We know that this is suggesting, using Daniel 7's progression of beasts in reverse order, that the beast John is seeing is in the Roman Empire stage. He notices that one of the seven heads are wounded mortally as well, but is miraculously healed. He also notices ten horns. The ten horns are ten kingdoms that were to come out of the Roman Empire. We indentify these as the barbarian kingdoms that formed when they took over the Roman providences after the fall of Augustus in Rome to Odoacer in A.D. 476, the deadly wound dealt to the Roman kingdom. This wound was healed when Charlemagne was crowned Augustus by the pope in A.D. 800. This began a new kingdom, as Revelation 13 suggests, which had two kings; the emperor to rule over the temporal, and the pope to rule over the spiritual. Eventually, toward the close of the 12th century, the pope gained more favor than the emperor, especially with his claim of vicarius christi. This allowed the false prophet to form a strong Church-based government called the Papacy, or the Roman See. The Papal states were like an image of the beast, a spiritual replica of the imperial kingdom, but imperialized the hearts and minds of men. The Catholic Catchism became the Roman Law. This allowed the Church to exercise legal judgement on any who followed a different faith; even to pass anti-labor laws on the Jewish citizens. Thus were they not allowed to work or sell.

And like was mentioned earlier, the fire from heaven was a symbol of Elijah asking God to send fire from heaven to turn Israel's heart back to true worship. This symbolism presents an opposite effect, seeing that the false prophet does it and not a true prophet of God. This is all symbolism of having the influence to take men's hearts from true worship.

God bless

 

[Zadok7000]

Revelation describes the beast as having the appearance of a leopard, feet of a bear, and mouth of a lion. We know that this is suggesting, using Daniel 7's progression of beasts in reverse order,

Yes, I'm with you so far...

that the beast John is seeing is in the Roman Empire stage.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The 7 heads tips us off that it's no ordinary empire (see Rev. 12 and notice how the crowns went up from 7 to 10). Satan offered to Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time". IE the 1st beast of Rev. 13. 7 mountains = 7 continents. This beast is global.

He notices that one of the seven heads are wounded mortally as well, but is miraculously healed.

Don't forget, later in Revelation we are told what those heads are. It is not a "hill of Rome" that is wounded. It is one of the geographical areas of the world. It prevents the System from operating, Satan must heal it himself with a "miracle". Who is able to make war with a system that has for the first time established world peace?

He also notices ten horns.

Again, be careful. We are told what those 10 horns are both in Daniel and Revelation. They are kings. These kings "hate the harlot" of Babylon. They give their power to the beast for "one hour". IE the "hour of temptation" when the Tempter himself is here.

The ten horns are ten kingdoms that were to come out of the Roman Empire. We indentify these as the barbarian kingdoms

I have heard this claim many times, but after researching it, I just can't say it's true. Basically, it's "wishful thinking" on part of the "1st Beast of Rev. 13 = Rome" crowd.

And like was mentioned earlier, the fire from heaven was a symbol of Elijah asking God to send fire from heaven to turn Israel's heart back to true worship. This symbolism presents an opposite effect, seeing that the false prophet does it and not a true prophet of God. This is all symbolism of having the influence to take men's hearts from true worship.

And God LITERALLY did send fire down to prove He was the True God. As this false one will LITERALLY do as a "sign" of his Divinity. Why do you have trouble coming to that conclusion?

 

[OttawaUk]

Exactly Zadok.

OU

 

[Barraco]

Yes, I'm with you so far...



I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The 7 heads tips us off that it's no ordinary empire (see Rev. 12 and notice how the crowns went up from 7 to 10). Satan offered to Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time". IE the 1st beast of Rev. 13. 7 mountains = 7 continents. This beast is global.

What the beast represents is the entirity of Gentile kingdoms: The seven heads: Babylon, Persia, the four kingdoms of Greece, and Rome. Thats why the beast was described with animals, to show you which stage the Gentile kingdom was in.

Its just like when Nebuchadnezzar saw the dream of the statue....they were different stages of the image, but still one image......so different stages of Gentile rule, but still one kingdom.

Don't forget, later in Revelation we are told what those heads are. It is not a "hill of Rome" that is wounded. It is one of the geographical areas of the world. It prevents the System from operating, Satan must heal it himself with a "miracle". Who is able to make war with a system that has for the first time established world peace?

Those are two different beasts that Daniel is seeing. I know this because the first beast of Revelation 13 doesn't describe the persecution of the saints like the 2nd one does. the beast of Revelation 17 has a women that has summed up the history of the persecution of the saints. the ten horns of the beast of Revelation 13 are ten kingdoms that come up out of the beast and rule as seperate kingdoms as the beast, while the ten horns of Revelation 17's beast are ten kingdoms that join the beast.

rev 13: the ten horns come out of the beast
rev 17: the ten horns join the beast
thus two different beasts

Again, be careful. We are told what those 10 horns are both in Daniel and Revelation. They are kings. These kings "hate the harlot" of Babylon. They give their power to the beast for "one hour". IE the "hour of temptation" when the Tempter himself is here.

these kings hate the harlot.....thus they are not of the beast like the ten kings of the beast of Revelation 13 are. I havn't found the words to exactly put this, but when I do, I will respond better.

I have heard this claim many times, but after researching it, I just can't say it's true. Basically, it's "wishful thinking" on part of the "1st Beast of Rev. 13 = Rome" crowd.

no, they are. The anglo-saxons, the burgundians, the franks, the visigoths, the allemani, the vandals, the ostrogoths, the lombards, the suevi, and Odoacer's kingdoms in Rome. Its no coincedence that when the Roman Empire fell, in its place formed several smaller kingdoms that became what we know today as European nations. These were conquered by the Franks who then became the kingdom over all the others, but yet subdued by the Roman Church. This formed the Holy Roman, in which so many witnesses lost their lives for what they believed. Rome's history is full of persecution of the martyrs.

And God LITERALLY did send fire down to prove He was the True God. As this false one will LITERALLY do as a "sign" of his Divinity. Why do you have trouble coming to that conclusion?

Because God wouldn't do that for a false prophet. So thus, God wouldn't literally do it. Why would God have a hand in decieving people? The people decieve themselves for their own pleasure, and thus the symbolism isn't literal. God would not have a hand in condemning the innocent.

And there is still the question that no one has answered: Why wait 2,000 years to persecute the saints? And why wouldn't the last 2,000 years of Christian persecution be mentioned to the early Church for our sakes. Why would God wait 2,000 years to start bringing about His kingdom? God bless

 

[OttawaUk]

Barraco,

Nobody is discounting persecution which has happened in the past 2000 years, but to use that to discount a future period of global immense persecution in the last days is un-Biblical.

Also, God's Word is clear that there will be false Christs and false prophets doing miracles and wonders to deceive people. Jesus even said it Himself.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24)

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10)

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." (Rev 13:13-14)

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Revelation 19:20)

The LORD told us why He was allowing this to come to pass.

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

God's Word is clear on this issues, there will be false signs and wonders done for the purposes of deceiving the ungodly because they have pleasure in unrighteousness.

OU

 

[Zadok7000]

What the beast represents is the entirity of Gentile kingdoms: The seven heads: Babylon, Persia, the four kingdoms of Greece, and Rome. Thats why the beast was described with animals, to show you which stage the Gentile kingdom was in.

Its just like when Nebuchadnezzar saw the dream of the statue....they were different stages of the image, but still one image......so different stages of Gentile rule, but still one kingdom.

That's fine, but the visions of Daniel for were for "the time of the end". When the beasts are described, the 4 winds were blowing - the 4 winds are not released until the Elect are Sealed. This has not yet occured. Babylon, Persia, Greece etc were TYPES. The fulfillment of Dan. 7 has not yet occured. The animals are COMBINED, they are not "stages" of the beast.

Those are two different beasts that Daniel is seeing. I know this because the first beast of Revelation 13 doesn't describe the persecution of the saints like the 2nd one does. the beast of Revelation 17 has a women that has summed up the history of the persecution of the saints. the ten horns of the beast of Revelation 13 are ten kingdoms that come up out of the beast and rule as seperate kingdoms as the beast, while the ten horns of Revelation 17's beast are ten kingdoms that join the beast.

rev 13: the ten horns come out of the beast
rev 17: the ten horns join the beast
thus two different beasts

I assume you meant John, not Daniel?
This is just incredibly poor discernment. There are 2 beasts in Rev. 13 - they are described together in Rev. 17 because they are both the "Dragon" - IE Satan. His system and his role as the False Christ.

no, they are. The anglo-saxons, the burgundians, the franks, the visigoths, the allemani, the vandals, the ostrogoths, the lombards, the suevi, and Odoacer's kingdoms in Rome.

You can repeat and repeat the same junk, but it's still junk. There is no historical evidence of the Roman Empire "becoming 10". It's a lie. There were nomadic tribes in Europe before and after Rome ceased to be an Empire.

Because God wouldn't do that for a false prophet. So thus, God wouldn't literally do it. Why would God have a hand in decieving people?

See OttawaUK's correctly Scriptural reply above.