Impossible to be saved like the thief on the cross!

[eldermike]

I found this statement of Faith on one of the site links from your posted link. Can you tell me if this is accurate to your beleifs and if so then is it not just another creed? And if you are going to call Bible things by Bible names do you speak greek, Hebrew, (not todays greek btw). Or is it ok to use translated words and can you provide scripture supporting that it's ok to translate the Bible.

"BROTHER GRAVES: I feel myself called upon in an editorial article in your issue of March 31st to answer certain queries that you have propounded. Your paper reached me to-day. Your inquiries are based upon the following expressions employed by me in a short review of 'Jeter on Campbellism:'

"'With his views as formerly expressed we could not sympathize, but as recently expressed they are in conformity with our own views.' . . . In the remark above I have reference to his views as set forth in the following articles, published, I think, in 1846: [615]

"'1. I believe all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, is profitable for teaching, conviction, instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly accomplished for every good work.

"'2. I believe in one God as manifested in the Father? the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are therefore one in power, nature and volition.

"'3. I believe that every human being participates in all the consequences of the fall of Adam, and is born into the world frail and depraved in all his moral powers and capacities. So that without faith in Christ it is impossible for him, while in that state, to please God.

"'4. I believe the Word which from the beginning was with God, and which was God, became flesh and dwelt among us as Emanuel, or "God manifest in the flesh," and did make an expiation of sins by the sacrifice of himself, which no being could have done that was not possessed of superhuman, superangelic and divine nature.

"'5. I believe in the justification of sinners by faith without the deeds of law; and of a Christian, not by faith alone, but by the obedience of faith.

"'6. I believe in the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word, but not without it in the conversion and sanctification of the sinner. . . .

"'7. I believe in the right and duty of exercising our own judgment in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

"'8. I believe in the divine institution of the evangelical ministry, the authority and perpetuity of baptism and the Lord's Supper.'

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
I agree, there are no denominations, all saved believers are in the same Body of Christ no matter what denomination they attend, don't you agree?

But you can relax, you don't need to dunk em in water as soon as they profess Christ. The only reason they know Christ is beacuse their Father in heaven told them. And He already gave them a full baptisim. The water will feel good and we should obey our Father in Heaven, but they will be saved going in and coming out.

You first statement makes no sense at all, you said "I agree, there are no denominations" then you turn around and say "no matter what denomination they attend".  If the first century did not have any denominations, why are they here?  There is no biblical authority for them.  Your last statement also is not a biblical statement, nor is it the teachings of the apostles of Jesus Christ, this is the BIG problem, you say that you want to follow Jesus Christ, but yet you want to do things your WAY and not HIS.

In Acts 8:26-39 can you please break down this passage verse by verse? 

And answer a few questions for me.

1. What was Philip to do here?

2. What did Philip preach?

3. In his lesson, did he say any thing about baptism while he was teaching the eunuch?

4. When we teach people about Christ, should we like Philip teach people to be baptized?

5. When we teach, is it important to baptize people once they believe and confess the name of Jesus Christ like Philip did in this text?

6. At what point in this story was the eunuch saved? 

 

[eldermike]

I am not going to debate baptisim, we went though that scripture already.



There are no denominations in the Body of Christ. There is noting wrong with calling yourself a baptist or whatever. There is no contridiction in that thinking. I attend and belong to a baptist church, I am a Christian, I am saved. I don't fish in the church, I fish for the lost.

If you fish in the church, what are you trying to catch?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
I found this statement of Faith on one of the site links from your posted link. Can you tell me if this is accurate to your beleifs and if so then is it not just another creed? And if you are going to call Bible things by Bible names do you speak greek, Hebrew, (not todays greek btw). Or is it ok to use translated words and can you provide scripture supporting that it's ok to translate the Bible.

"BROTHER GRAVES: I feel myself called upon in an editorial article in your issue of March 31st to answer certain queries that you have propounded. Your paper reached me to-day. Your inquiries are based upon the following expressions employed by me in a short review of 'Jeter on Campbellism:'

"'With his views as formerly expressed we could not sympathize, but as recently expressed they are in conformity with our own views.' . . . In the remark above I have reference to his views as set forth in the following articles, published, I think, in 1846: [615]

"'1. I believe all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, is profitable for teaching, conviction, instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly accomplished for every good work.

"'2. I believe in one God as manifested in the Father? the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are therefore one in power, nature and volition.

"'3. I believe that every human being participates in all the consequences of the fall of Adam, and is born into the world frail and depraved in all his moral powers and capacities. So that without faith in Christ it is impossible for him, while in that state, to please God.

"'4. I believe the Word which from the beginning was with God, and which was God, became flesh and dwelt among us as Emanuel, or "God manifest in the flesh," and did make an expiation of sins by the sacrifice of himself, which no being could have done that was not possessed of superhuman, superangelic and divine nature.

"'5. I believe in the justification of sinners by faith without the deeds of law; and of a Christian, not by faith alone, but by the obedience of faith.

"'6. I believe in the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word, but not without it in the conversion and sanctification of the sinner. . . .

"'7. I believe in the right and duty of exercising our own judgment in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

"'8. I believe in the divine institution of the evangelical ministry, the authority and perpetuity of baptism and the Lord's Supper.'

I was hoping that you would just use this info to learn more about restoring the Lords church, this man A. C. was a Presbyerian, and in studing the bible like those in Acts 17:11, he came out of that denomination and had a desire to start the restoration of the first century church doing all that the bible taught that all men should do.

Is there a such thing as a false teacher or prophet?

Who are they and where are they?

We were given only two gates to enter by Jesus in Matt.7:13-14, did we all enter the same gate?

Is it the first gate or the second gate?

 

 

[eldermike]

Bible is Right,

I work every day in the Lords Church. Am I lost if I don't agree with you?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
I am not going to debate baptisim, we went though that scripture already.



There are no denominations in the Body of Christ. There is noting wrong with calling yourself a baptist or whatever. There is no contridiction in that thinking. I attend and belong to a baptist church, I am a Christian, I am saved. I don't fish in the church, I fish for the lost.

If you fish in the church, what are you trying to catch?

1. "There is nothing wrong with calling yourself a baptist or whatever" there is according to Paul, 1 Cor.1:10-13 vs. Now this I say, that everyone of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.  13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

2. "I attend and belong to a baptist church"  where is it in the new testament, was anyone in the new testament a member of any baptist church?  If not why?

3. Matt. 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness".   Acts 2:47 "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved".

 

[eldermike]

Bible is right,

How can you hide your message in debates about baptisim, in good conscience. Your message is, that all that don't agree with you are lost. I do not believe that the Christian Only areas of this forum are intended for such a message of fear and division. You do not seek fellowship with Christian brothers, you seek to save them.

Tell me where I am wrong on this thinking.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible is right,

How can you hide your message in debates about baptisim, in good conscience. Your message is, that all that don't agree with you are lost. I do not believe that the Christian Only areas of this forum are intended for such a message of fear and division. You do not seek fellowship with Christian brothers, you seek to save them.

Tell me where I am wrong on this thinking.

My message is not about baptism, its about the truth!

1 Cor.5:6 "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

 

[eldermike]

No, your message is not building up the church, not edifying in the least. It should not be in the Christian Only areas of this forum.

We should be encouraging each other on to good works just as Paul told us, We should gather together in encouragment, not the discouraging message of follow me or you are all lost.

You have broken fellowship with all who are not in your teaching.

 

[Ben johnson]

It's all true, all makes total sense, but none of it says you can lose salvation, none of it, nadda, not one single word.

Really? And after I have posted verse after verse after verse after verse that speaks of falling-from-salvation. Shall we start a new thread and begin again?

Salvation is by faith alone. Believe and you are saved.

Ooooo---Louis & I agree! Kewl! (Well, it's by our faith, through His grace---and I'm SURE we agree on that...)

Oh, and btw, TBIR...

There are many baptisms in the Bible. The word, in Greek, simply means, "To Immerse".

&#149There is a baptism with the Holy Spirit---arguably, this is identical to "being FILLED with the Holy Spirit" (Matt3:11)

&#149There is a baptism of fire for sinners---obviously this is Hell (Matt3:11-12)

&#149There is a baptism of water---which is not bathing, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, and that all righteousness be fulfilled (Mat3:15, 1Pet3:21)

&#149And, there is a baptism, an immersion into Jesus---His death & resurrection, meaning that our sinful nature DIES and we are BORN AGAIN. This is immersion into JESUS, has nothing to do with water... (Rm6:4-11---do you see? "Buried with Him through baptism into death"---not baptism in water; in context, it only means the old nature dies, is buried with CHrist's death.)

Now, in Eph4:5 says there is ONE BAPTISM...

Which, if you had to choose from the above list, which "immersion" do you suppose Paul means?

Immersion into water? Nope.

Immersion into the Spirit? Well, not really.

Immersion into fire? Can't be, that's Hell...

Hmmm, immersion into CHRIST? Yeah, that does seem to be it...

And, also, many places in Scripture the "double narrative" is employed, the "Twice-Told-Tale". Something is stated, then told again for emphasis. There are not two creations in Genesis, but only one, told twice.

In John3, Jesus engages in a little of this:

"Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Then He says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Two choices here---either Jesus totally jumped-context and inserted something about water-baptism, or this is simply, a "twice-told-tale".

Born of water, and the Spirit.
Born of flesh, and the Spirit.

Could Jesus have meant, "WATER = FLESH"? Welllll, in Greek, "water" here is "Hudor"---which does indeed carry the meaning of "water-as-the-fundamental-element".

Born of water/flesh, AND born of the Spirit. Very clear. We must be born again. Born once, of the flesh, of water-as-fundamental-element, and born of the Spirit.

The "ONE BAPTISM", is immersion into CHRIST

BORN AGAIN.

It is the foundation on which all our faith is based.

We are born again by believing, by receiving Christ, by faith-unto-salvation, by abiding in Him, by walking in Him and in the Spirit, by fellowship with Jesus & God, all of that says the same...

 

[eldermike]

Ben,

You can start another one if you want too. But it's not what the verses say, it's what they mean. If you read all those verses, which I have read and taught for years with a different idea, the idea that they are not about slavation, you will see them differently.

I am not and never have been concerned about losing salvation I walk with Jesus the very best I can. The God I worship is a big God, when I accepted His gift He accepted me. All the growth, all the works are all His.

If you change one other idea it makes all the verses read differently. That Idea is that we do not work for God, He works through us. He dosn't need my obediance to my ideas about God, He just needs my heart, my feet and hands do His will when He owns my heart.

I love to read the Bible, study and learn about the Lord. But little of it actually applys to a sold out Christian. I have no plans to sin, in fact I sin all I want to sin, I just don't want to.

I don't want this to sound wrong, I really mean that. I have been where you are. I teach a non denominational small group bible study. My ministry is to get people out of the mode of thinking about their salvation, to set them free so they can lead others to Christ. Many of them have been Christians all thier lives and all they have done with it is debate scripture. Debate what is and what is not a sin. They worry if they are doing enough for God. They are in fact useless in this world to God. It takes about 6 weeks to get them from reverting back to looking at themselves and asking questions about obediance to some out of context scripture. They lact an understanding of God's plan for salvation, they do not understand the cross.

You can start a new thread Brother, but you will never convince me that the Bible says we work for God. God works through us.

Blessings

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Really? And after I have posted verse after verse after verse after verse that speaks of falling-from-salvation. Shall we start a new thread and begin again?
Ooooo---Louis & I agree! Kewl! (Well, it's by our faith, through His grace---and I'm SURE we agree on that...)

Oh, and btw, TBIR...

There are many baptisms in the Bible. The word, in Greek, simply means, "To Immerse".

•There is a baptism with the Holy Spirit---arguably, this is identical to "being FILLED with the Holy Spirit" (Matt3:11)

•There is a baptism of fire for sinners---obviously this is Hell (Matt3:11-12)

•There is a baptism of water---which is not bathing, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, and that all righteousness be fulfilled (Mat3:15, 1Pet3:21)

•And, there is a baptism, an immersion into Jesus---His death & resurrection, meaning that our sinful nature DIES and we are BORN AGAIN. This is immersion into JESUS, has nothing to do with water... (Rm6:4-11---do you see? "Buried with Him through baptism into death"---not baptism in water; in context, it only means the old nature dies, is buried with CHrist's death.)

Now, in Eph4:5 says there is ONE BAPTISM...

Which, if you had to choose from the above list, which "immersion" do you suppose Paul means?

Immersion into water? Nope.

Immersion into the Spirit? Well, not really.

Immersion into fire? Can't be, that's Hell...

Hmmm, immersion into CHRIST? Yeah, that does seem to be it...

And, also, many places in Scripture the "double narrative" is employed, the "Twice-Told-Tale". Something is stated, then told again for emphasis. There are not two creations in Genesis, but only one, told twice.

In John3, Jesus engages in a little of this:

"Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Then He says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Two choices here---either Jesus totally jumped-context and inserted something about water-baptism, or this is simply, a "twice-told-tale".

Born of water, and the Spirit.
Born of flesh, and the Spirit.

Could Jesus have meant, "WATER = FLESH"? Welllll, in Greek, "water" here is "Hudor"---which does indeed carry the meaning of "water-as-the-fundamental-element".

Born of water/flesh, AND born of the Spirit. Very clear. We must be born again. Born once, of the flesh, of water-as-fundamental-element, and born of the Spirit.

The "ONE BAPTISM", is immersion into CHRIST

BORN AGAIN.

It is the foundation on which all our faith is based.

We are born again by believing, by receiving Christ, by faith-unto-salvation, by abiding in Him, by walking in Him and in the Spirit, by fellowship with Jesus & God, all of that says the same...

Ben, Ben, Ben How long did it take you to come to that conclusion?

You have taken the simple truth, and have twisted it so bad, and you aught to be shame.

Some things in the bible need no inerpretation, the passages you use are such.  After reading the things you said hurts my heart that we don't allow God's word to speak to us, instead we speak to and about it.

Let's start with Eph. 4:5, this is a simple verse to understand, all one have to do is go to the book of Acts and read, it will become very clear which baptism Paul is talking about, because thousands have obeyed the same thing, they were immersed in water for the remission of sins.

John 3:5 is also simple, if compared with Col.2:12, along with 1John 5:8, Here God opperates on the sinner with the circumcision of the heart, it's a spiritual thing, can we see it?  No!  But by faith we believe it.  And to make it real simple, we just need to understand plane english, the word "and" in the sentence is what hold's it all together, that is the "water and the spirit" if you notice in 1John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one".  The things that agree in one are spirit, water, blood, who's blood?  The blood of Jesus of course.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" Eph. 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith"  Here's a question, are these two scriptures opposed to one another or do they agree with one another?

Is  the results the same or will we get different results from the above scriptures?

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is equal to "For by grace are ye saved through faith"!  How do we know this, by the word saved!  And all we have to do is go to the book of Acts 19:1-20:1-38 we know that Paul baptize some men in Ephesus, and that a conregation started there, and that Paul later wrote the letter to this church, all of who were baptized into Christ. Per Mark 16:16. Jesus said that "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".  Now who don't believe that?

 

[livingforJesus-Shaun]

Originally posted by The Bible is Right

• Paul never taught anything that was false, people just misunderstood what Paul taught.

 

• Paul never taught that baptism in water was a work, therefore not necessary for salvation.

 

• Paul never taught that we are saved by "faith alone".

 

• Paul never taught that one church is as good as another (denominational churches) because there were no denominational churches when he was alive, nor did he ever condone them.

 

• Paul never taught anyone to say the sinners prayer.

 

• Paul never taught that men can use instrumental music in worship.

 

• Paul never taught once saved aways saved.

 

[SHADOW=deeppink]My Bad sorry! [/SHADOW]

 

[Ben johnson]

Col2:12: "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your trangressions ...He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgression..."

This is identical with Rom6---where the word, "baptism", literally means "immersion"---let's read the two passages together with that word:

"...having been buried with Him in immersion, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith..."

"Do you not know that all who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him through immersion into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection..."

You say that it means "immersed in WATER into Christ", I say that it means "immersed into CHRIST". The immersion-into-water, is symbolic of the immersion-into-Christ-which-is-SALVATION.

1Jn5:6 in my Bible carries the cross reference to Jn19:34---where Jesus' side was pierced and both blood & water issued. But I believe the water here, combined with the Spirit and the blood is a reference to deity. SSalvation is called, "the WATER of LIFE"---(Jn4:14, Rev21:6,22:7)

The problem with these verses, as you have presented them, is that they do not produce a "smoking-gun", indicative that salvation does not exist apart from water-baptism...

Same with Mark 16:16---(which, btw, is in a passage that is not in the older manuscripts) it simply does not say "he who has disbelieved AND HAS NOT BEEN BAPTIZED shall be condemned". If baptism was so instrumtental to salvation in Mark's mind, why does he say "believed & baptized will be saved" (notice he doesn't say "believe & be baptized TO be saved"), but doesn't say "disbelieved and NOT be baptized will NOT be saved"? If baptism is part of salvation, we need a verse that says so...

You neglected to cite one other "oft-used-verse" (by the batize-salvation-group)---so if I may, Acts 2:38. But in THIS verse, is it the BAPTISM that saves us, or the NAME OF JESUS that forgives our sins?

Let's look at another verse, that might provide a "smoking gun"---but I regret to tell you it is not the smoking gun that you want:

"For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' "
Acts 10:44-48

Do you understand, TBIR? They had the Holy Spirit, they were saved---and they had not yet been water-baptized. It is indeed a "smoking-gun"---plainly conveying that "water-baptism accompanies salvation, but does not cause it...

Salvation is cause by BELIEF. "He who BELIEVES and is water-baptized is saved, he who DISBELIEVES shall be condemned".

It is not the lack-of-dipping that condemns them, it is disbelief.

It is not the wetting that saves us, it is belief.

True belief will be succeeded by water-baptism. But it is the belief that saves, not the physical water.

I still say that John3 uses "water/hudor-as-the-fundamental-element";

"Flesh/water, spirit/Spirit"...

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Col2:12: "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your trangressions ...He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgression..."

This is identical with Rom6---where the word, "baptism", literally means "immersion"---let's read the two passages together with that word:

"...having been buried with Him in immersion, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith..."

"Do you not know that all who have been immersed into Christ Jesus have been immersed into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him through immersion into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection..."

You say that it means "immersed in WATER into Christ", I say that it means "immersed into CHRIST". The immersion-into-water, is symbolic of the immersion-into-Christ-which-is-SALVATION.

1Jn5:6 in my Bible carries the cross reference to Jn19:34---where Jesus' side was pierced and both blood & water issued. But I believe the water here, combined with the Spirit and the blood is a reference to deity. SSalvation is called, "the WATER of LIFE"---(Jn4:14, Rev21:6,22:7)

The problem with these verses, as you have presented them, is that they do not produce a "smoking-gun", indicative that salvation does not exist apart from water-baptism...

Same with Mark 16:16---(which, btw, is in a passage that is not in the older manuscripts) it simply does not say "he who has disbelieved AND HAS NOT BEEN BAPTIZED shall be condemned". If baptism was so instrumtental to salvation in Mark's mind, why does he say "believed & baptized will be saved" (notice he doesn't say "believe & be baptized TO be saved"), but doesn't say "disbelieved and NOT be baptized will NOT be saved"? If baptism is part of salvation, we need a verse that says so...

You neglected to cite one other "oft-used-verse" (by the batize-salvation-group)---so if I may, Acts 2:38. But in THIS verse, is it the BAPTISM that saves us, or the NAME OF JESUS that forgives our sins?

Let's look at another verse, that might provide a "smoking gun"---but I regret to tell you it is not the smoking gun that you want:

"For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' "
Acts 10:44-48

Do you understand, TBIR? They had the Holy Spirit, they were saved---and they had not yet been water-baptized. It is indeed a "smoking-gun"---plainly conveying that "water-baptism accompanies salvation, but does not cause it...

Salvation is cause by BELIEF. "He who BELIEVES and is water-baptized is saved, he who DISBELIEVES shall be condemned".

It is not the lack-of-dipping that condemns them, it is disbelief.

It is not the wetting that saves us, it is belief.

True belief will be succeeded by water-baptism. But it is the belief that saves, not the physical water.

I still say that John3 uses "water/hudor-as-the-fundamental-element";

"Flesh/water, spirit/Spirit"...

Your first point about immersion water  being symbolic with immersion into Christ, I agree with you here.  Because the only way into to Christ is by immersion in water by faith.

So to address you point about Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"  This fit's the above statement.

You and other have addressed Mark 16:16b "He that believeth not shall be comdemned.  You decided to add "and is not baptized" to the text, first, it's wrong to add to God's word Rev.22:18 "For I testify unto every man that shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book".  So if I were you I would not be so quick to do that.  Then, let's just take that part of the text and let the bible answer the none belief question... in Matt. 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?  And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?  So from their own reasoning, none-belief produces non-action or no response.  Therefore Jesus did not have to say "he that believeth and is not baptized shall be comdemned"  two negatives in a sentence is not good english.

1John 5:6-8 is also letting us know where we meet the blood of Jesus, that's in the water, the blood acts as a detergent on our souls cleansing us of sins by faith. 1John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin".  This verse tells us what the blood of Jesus Christ can do to sins.  So when we look at John 19:34, we need to understand the significance of the blood coming out of the wound of Jesus along with water.  Some would boldly tell us that water has nothing to do with Salvation, but I believe they are wrong, dead wrong.  God is telling us something with this great event.  Why the water with the blood?.....   We know the blood cleanses us from sins, but why the water, what was it's purpose?  When we wash our cothes and things, to get them clean we must use a detergent in the water.

 

[Ben johnson]

I agree with you, that we are not to add anything to Scripture---although that verse you cited was written only about the Revelation to John...

I often quote from John 15:4, where I add my own words, parenthetically:
"Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you." I do not believe I am actually adding to the text, I believe those words in parentheses are meant and intended by John...

JESUS-IN-US is always conditional on our RECEIVING Him... (and our abiding in Him)

The point that I was tryin' to make with the Acts 10:44-48 passage, is that salvation occurs indepentencly of water-baptism. Water-baptism can ACCOMPANY salvation.

It can PRECEED salvation.

And it can SUCCEED salvation.

Therefore it is not PART OF salvation...

 

[cthoma11]

Originally posted by Ben johnson


It can PRECEED salvation.

Hi Ben,

I noticed the TBIR ignored your example from Acts when Cornelius was baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit and thus after being saved. He ignored it when I raised the same point in another thread as well. I whole heartedly agree with you and believe there is no way his position can be reconciled with this example (not to mention all of Romans, etc.)

I'm curious how you see baptism preceeding salvation. Isn't that just a bath in that case?

Regards,

Clinton

 

[LouisBooth]

"Water-baptism can ACCOMPANY salvation.

It can PRECEED salvation."

Totally agreed ben, but then again you have to get dunked again if you "turn away" don't ya hehehe.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I agree with you, that we are not to add anything to Scripture---although that verse you cited was written only about the Revelation to John...

I often quote from John 15:4, where I add my own words, parenthetically:
"Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you." I do not believe I am actually adding to the text, I believe those words in parentheses are meant and intended by John...

JESUS-IN-US is always conditional on our RECEIVING Him... (and our abiding in Him)

The point that I was tryin' to make with the Acts 10:44-48 passage, is that salvation occurs indepentencly of water-baptism. Water-baptism can ACCOMPANY salvation.

It can PRECEED salvation.

And it can SUCCEED salvation.

Therefore it is not PART OF salvation...

You said that I ignored Acts 10:44-48, There is no point in trying to get you to understand what happened in that conversion, it was a special conversion, which let the Jews know that God had excepted the gentiles, now was it salvation when the spoke with tongues, or when they were baptized in the name of Jesus?

Which brings up this point here, Mark 16:16a "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"  Jesus placed salvation after baptism, here, Acts 8:16 "(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus).  Question, where was salvation?  Were these saved here in Acts 8:16?  Note also that Peter commanded them to be baptized in Acts 10:48, now if we take Mark 16:16a in both cases, where is salvation?  Salvation is to the one that believes and is baptized!

And if you want to argue Mark 16:16b "BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE COMDEMNED!"  I would not want any part of the this section of this text.

The (a) part is where salvation is. (He that believeth and is baptized shall be SAVED!"  THIS IS THE ONLY PART I WOULD WANT!

Can anyone show in the new testament where it says that "he that believeth and speaks in tongues shall be saved?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Jesus Christ is King of kings, and he made a decree in Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"!  These are the words of the King of kings.

Matt. 7:24-27 The King of kings show us where wisdom is, by showing us two types of people, in verse 24-25 is the wise person.  Verse 26-27 is the foolish person.

The wise of Matt.7:24-25 will follow the decree of the King of kings, in Mark 16:16a.

The foolish of Matt.7:26-27 will not follow the decree of the King of kings, so they are a product of Mark 16:16b.

 

What we must remember is that Matt.28:18 states: "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (AUTHORITY) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.!

He's King of kings and Lord of lords!!!