"Do your sins have to be forgiven in order to be saved? "
Yup, happens at salvation, not water ritual.
I agree with you here LB. We do have to have to have our sins forgiven to be saved. Some water ritual by itself will just get you wet. The bible clearly shows that it is our faith in the operation of God that we know that when we are being baptised with Christ that we are being united together with him and having our sins washed away. When we are being raised up out of that watery grave of baptism we know that we are being raised a new creature and that we are being added to that one church by God. The water is not magical its about our faith in God and knowing that these things happen at the point of baptism by our obedince of faith. Notice the following verse teachs this.
Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
It is very clear from this passage that your sins are not forgiven until you are baptized into Christ. I don't want to leave any stones unturned so here is more scriptual proof.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death, CERTAINLY we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now IF we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Can you deny that baptism puts you into Christ Death? Can you deny that in Baptism we are united with Christ in the likeness of his death? Can you deny that our old man is cruified with Christ in baptism? Can you deny that verse 7 teaches that when we die with Christ in baptism that we have been freed from sin. Finally can you deny the condentional statement in verse 8 that says IF WE DIED WITH CHRIST (THEN) WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM.
Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
You know the story here LB. Paul belived that Jesus was the son of God because he talked with him on that road. We also know that Paul was very sorry for what he had done in fact he has spent 3 day fasting and praying before Ananais showed up. He was still in his sins. Notice what Ananais says. WHY ARE YOU WAITING? (Notice he did'nt say lets wait until the end of the month so your family can be present to see you get baptized. He knew the urgence just like you find through out the bible. When people heard the word of God they were always in a hurry to be baptized because it was part of salvation as we see in the rest of this verse. ARISE AND BE BAPTIZED AND WASH AWAY YOUR SINS, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Pauls sins were not washed away until he was baptized. Or at least thats what the bible says.
"One of you said that you have to have the HS before your saved."
I'd say lost, but then again its a "what if" and has no bearing on the situation or docerinal disscusion.."what if Esau didn't give away his birthright?
"Please set aside your traditions and what you have been taught in the past"
What's funny is you assume i haven't done this already. I did this a looonnngg time ago and found the views I have now. I urge you to shed the trappings of this world and do the same.
That is really interesting LB. So with your view when Philip being filled with the HS just baptized these people in Sameria with a usless water baptism and then left them in a lost condtion until the 2 apostles came and laid hands on them so they could recieve the HS. Then later in Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
So with your view we have Philp just water baptizing this eunch and the HS takeing Philip away leaving this eunch in a lost condtion. The poor eunch even thought he was saved once he was water baptized because he went his way rejoicing. Looks like Philip pulled the wool over his eyes. If this is not what your view is saying please correct me.
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