Originally posted by eldermike
bible,
I pray you will take this as it's given, with love and true concern for a Christian brother.
I didn't know we were this far apart. Put the book of Acts, Romans and any other NT book away and go read John.
There will be plenty of time later to read all of the NT many times. And, if you have a solid foundation (doctrine) you can read the rest of it and not get jerked all over the place. It's all true, all makes total sense, but none of it says you can lose salvation, none of it, nadda, not one single word. It's your doctrine that's off. It's the way you see the cross.
Bible, you can't in my opinion form a consistent and workable doctrine concerning salvation by mixing what is the work of God (salvation) and the requirements of an ideal Christian walk. You will just tie yourself in a legalistic knot. Read John. You will find salvation in John. I use John as a bondage breaking Bible study. It doesn't require confrontation, arguments, it speaks clearly about this issue. The only challenge is to keep a person from turning over to another NT book and putting the chains back on before they understand it. Once they get it, it's a done deal, they are free forever.
To be in the Church one is already saved. To "go to a church" has no relationship to being "in the Church". Salvation is a requirement of being in the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. Only saved people are in the Body of Christ. They are all headed for eternal life, all of them.
This is one of my ministries and the reason I am posting in this thread. It is amazing to see what happens to a Christian when this bondage is finally broken.
Bible, if what you believed was not true, would you want to know it? I pray you said yes. Then put all other materials away and read John until you hear from God, you will hear. Seek Him and stop trying to defend a works doctrine, Jesus came to set you free, not chain you to a works program.
Read John.
I pray you hear this.
Blessings
The book of John just happen's to be my favorite book, and I read your post on John 3, and in my opinion you are Nicodemus, and I mean this is a nice way. When you say that Jesus is talking about physical birth in this chapter you miss the whole point of being in Christ, the whole meaning of what it means to be buried with Christ and raised up to sit together with him. You miss seeing the kingdom of God, and finally, you miss entering into the kingdom of God.
When Jesus first said to Nicodemus, vs. 3 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God".
Just to let us understand, that Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus was talking about, He ask, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? This is the physical mind at work in Nicodemus, but that is not where Jesus is coming from, so Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus explains, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Here Jesus compares what has said with what Nicodemus has said. Nicodemus was speaking of fleshly things and Jesus was speaking of spiritual things.
Jesus said, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
An old testament example of this is Naaman the Syria, he did not know how the muddy waters of the Jordan could cleasne him of leprosy. 2Kings 5:11
But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold,
I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the Lord his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damasus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan,
according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
Nicodemus, like Naaman, didn't know how God was able to do what he does for us,
But the whole thing is listen to the WORD OF GOD, THE WORDS OF JESUS, AND THE WORDS OF THE MEN OF GOD IN THE BIBLE, when we hear and obey we will be saved.
1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
So what is the Lord's delight? HEARING AND OBEYING HIS VOICE!
You said that Jesus was speaking of two birth's, but as one can clearly see, he was speaking of only one birth, which is by water and the Spirit vs. 5 Nicodemus said How can this be?
Jesus said, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things. vs. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye beleive not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
vs. 14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. vs 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosovever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Now where was Jesus heading all of this time?
Can just beleiving cause one to be born again? We know beleif is the starting point, but it's not the ending point. We must obey the voice of the Lord.