Impediments

[CelticRebel]

I wanted to mention that another thing I have a problem with is exaggerated clergy titles, which is also found in Anglicanism.

How can such titles as His Eminence, His Beatitude, His Grace, Most Reverend, Very Reverend, etc., be justified considering what Jesus taught about titles, humility, etc. Our faith was founded by a carpenter, after all.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I'd say that these titles are pretty much forced upon these guys, and they humbly accept them. It will be rare that you will meet an arrogant EO Bishop or elderly clergy. Humility is at the core of Orthodox Christianity. I have heard a Bishop's homily start more than once with "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me, the first amongst sinners." Once you've met and gotten to know a few of these guys (and yes when they come to your church they will stay and eat lunch with your people and mingle and chat) you will realize what incredible people they are. This is part of why it is important to "Come and See", because one can get the totally wrong impression if just looking at the words without having the context.

 

[CelticRebel]

I'd say that these titles are pretty much forced upon these guys, and they humbly accept them. It will be rare that you will meet an arrogant EO Bishop or elderly clergy. Humility is at the core of Orthodox Christianity. I have heard a Bishop's homily start more than once with "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me, the first amongst sinners." Once you've met and gotten to know a few of these guys (and yes when they come to your church they will stay and eat lunch with your people and mingle and chat) you will realize what incredible people they are. This is part of why it is important to "Come and See", because one can get the totally wrong impression if just looking at the words without having the context.

Thanks; I appreciate your perspective.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'd say that these titles are pretty much forced upon these guys, and they humbly accept them. It will be rare that you will meet an arrogant EO Bishop or elderly clergy. Humility is at the core of Orthodox Christianity. I have heard a Bishop's homily start more than once with "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me, the first amongst sinners." Once you've met and gotten to know a few of these guys (and yes when they come to your church they will stay and eat lunch with your people and mingle and chat) you will realize what incredible people they are. This is part of why it is important to "Come and See", because one can get the totally wrong impression if just looking at the words without having the context.

That's very true.

I've made it a habit on FB to request friendships from people who give incredible answers. Without knowing who they were, I've made friends with a few bishops and personalities that others know who they are - in my ignorance, I didn't, LOL. A few times I chatted with them like they were just anybody I met on the street, and only later realized they were who they were. I would be very embarrassed, and apologize, etc. I think in every single instance, they were very kind and humble, and often didn't really like to be addressed so formally and would try to turn it aside. They often said they didn't like the fancy language. I have never once had one get offended and insist on the formal address.

And I have also read that it is not proper for a layman to bless a priest, but I've never found a good thing to say instead when what I WANT to say is "God bless you" or "God be with you". I have also had them very humbly thank me for my blessing and say they would like to receive it, and none has ever once chastised me for my "presumption".

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can't get past the teaching that water produces a spiritual effect.

What about the idea that bread and wine have a spiritual effect?

 

[CelticRebel]

What about the idea that bread and wine have a spiritual effect?

I guess I should distinguish between having a spiritual effect and having a regenerative spiritual effect. I can affirm the former but not the latter. And I don't believe water or bread and wine have a spiritual effect on someone who is not even aware of them, like infants.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess I should distinguish between having a spiritual effect and having a regenerative spiritual effect. I can affirm the former but not the latter. And I don't believe water or bread and wine have a spiritual effect on someone who is not even aware of them, like infants.

OK. You need someone else who can better address these things with you too, I'm just asking questions.

But I have to wonder ... do you understand that it is the grace of God that gives us the spiritual effect? How can that be dependent on our intellect? That would seem to imply that we "create" the grace somehow, or are in control of it, by our own minds.

That is SO very foreign to me now. The grace of God is uncreated, and part of His energies. He gives it, He controls it. I honestly have a very difficult time seeing how we can take that role.

He could CHOOSE to withhold based on our lack of belief, or lack of purity of heart, etc. I'm NOT saying this is the case, but offering a possibility that God is in control of. But that would be up to Him. And why would He choose to deny infants?

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's how I see it -- that the scripture presents it as a sign. Can you tell me why you believe otherwise?

well, the Scripture doesn't present it as a sign or lack of a sign. what it does is that it presents baptism as of water and the Spirit, where you put on Christ. what the Scripture presents is that baptism is the entry of someone into the Church. even after St Paul realized the risen Lord on Damascus road, he still needed to be baptized.

my recommendation is not to define something that is not for us to define.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wanted to mention that another thing I have a problem with is exaggerated clergy titles, which is also found in Anglicanism.

How can such titles as His Eminence, His Beatitude, His Grace, Most Reverend, Very Reverend, etc., be justified considering what Jesus taught about titles, humility, etc. Our faith was founded by a carpenter, after all.

those titles are for the office, not the individual man. and the laity get titles as well, because of their enrollment in the royal priesthood as members of the Church. humility is also accepting titles and awards given

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess I should distinguish between having a spiritual effect and having a regenerative spiritual effect. I can affirm the former but not the latter. And I don't believe water or bread and wine have a spiritual effect on someone who is not even aware of them, like infants.

they are only unaware of them if it is merely a mental exercise. someone can be very awake in their soul (or nous), even if an infant. and infants, because of their purity, are much more spiritually aware than us adults who are darkened by our sins.

 

[CelticRebel]

OK. You need someone else who can better address these things with you too, I'm just asking questions.

But I have to wonder ... do you understand that it is the grace of God that gives us the spiritual effect? How can that be dependent on our intellect? That would seem to imply that we "create" the grace somehow, or are in control of it, by our own minds.

That is SO very foreign to me now. The grace of God is uncreated, and part of His energies. He gives it, He controls it. I honestly have a very difficult time seeing how we can take that role.

He could CHOOSE to withhold based on our lack of belief, or lack of purity of heart, etc. I'm NOT saying this is the case, but offering a possibility that God is in control of. But that would be up to Him. And why would He choose to deny infants?

I don't think it is dependent on our intellect. But I don't think faith is dependent on our intellect. While the intellect may have some part, it is our hearts and spirits that are involved. I do believe that God gives grace without regard to faith, but I don't believe He gives saving grace without regard to faith.

 

[CelticRebel]

those titles are for the office, not the individual man. and the laity get titles as well, because of their enrollment in the royal priesthood as members of the Church. humility is also accepting titles and awards given

I don't believe the laity get such exalted titles as Eminence, Very Reverend, Most Reverend. Can you tell me what titles laity get?

 

[CelticRebel]

they are only unaware of them if it is merely a mental exercise. someone can be very awake in their soul (or nous), even if an infant. and infants, because of their purity, are much more spiritually aware than us adults who are darkened by our sins.

I can agree with that much, definitely.

 

[CelticRebel]

Let me ask this: Does Orthodoxy teach that baptism cleanses an infant from original sin or ancestral sin?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't believe the laity get such exalted titles as Eminence, Very Reverend, Most Reverend. Can you tell me what titles laity get?

as individuals usually Servant of God, Handmaiden of God, or Child of God. as a seminarian, I have been called the Most Devout Seminarian Matthew....which I admit was odd to my ear (plus, I know me so I know that ain't right). but again, remember those titles are for the office that a person holds, not the person himself. so those titles are given to bishops, priests, and deacons because our true bishop, priest, and deacon is our Lord. it points us to Him in the offices He has given to His Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Let me ask this: Does Orthodoxy teach that baptism cleanses an infant from original sin or ancestral sin?

we would call it the ancestral sin, the mortality and hold that sin has over us because of the Fall. the term original sin can be used, but with the understanding that is Orthodox: that we are not guilty of Adam's sin, but must deal with the after effects. it's those after effects of death and corruption and an inclination to sin that baptism cleanses us of.

 

[CelticRebel]

as individuals usually Servant of God, Handmaiden of God, or Child of God. as a seminarian, I have been called the Most Devout Seminarian Matthew....which I admit was odd to my ear (plus, I know me so I know that ain't right). but again, remember those titles are for the office that a person holds, not the person himself. so those titles are given to bishops, priests, and deacons because our true bishop, priest, and deacon is our Lord. it points us to Him in the offices He has given to His Church.

I'm afraid I can't see that.

 

[CelticRebel]

we would call it the ancestral sin, the mortality and hold that sin has over us because of the Fall. the term original sin can be used, but with the understanding that is Orthodox: that we are not guilty of Adam's sin, but must deal with the after effects. it's those after effects of death and corruption and an inclination to sin that baptism cleanses us of.

Please don't think I am disrespecting this belief, but I just can't go along with that. And even in believer's baptism, if I believed that water baptism regenerated, I wouldn't believe that it cleanses of the inclination to sin. I believe even in the regenerated, this inclination remains, just as mortality remains. But I believe we are to grow in grace toward sanctification.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm afraid I can't see that.

which is understandable. remember as well the titles come with service to others, and not lording authority over folks. and it's okay if you don't see it, I can tell you that is the understanding.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Please don't think I am disrespecting this belief, but I just can't go along with that. And even in believer's baptism, if I believed that water baptism regenerated, I wouldn't believe that it cleanses of the inclination to sin. I believe even in the regenerated, this inclination remains, just as mortality remains. But I believe we are to grow in grace toward sanctification.

right that is why I said in some post that it is the HOLD that it erases. yes, we still live in a fallen world and we still can follow our fallenness because our will is free. baptism may cleanse, but we can always resoil the wedding garment.