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Impediments

CelticRebel

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which is understandable. remember as well the titles come with service to others, and not lording authority over folks. and it's okay if you don't see it, I can tell you that is the understanding.

And from what I've read of Orthodoxy, I believe you. And that's different from in the RCC and to a degree in Anglicanism.
 
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CelticRebel

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right that is why I said in some post that it is the HOLD that it erases. yes, we still live in a fallen world and we still can follow our fallenness because our will is free. baptism may cleanse, but we can always resoil the wedding garment.

Okay, that makes more sense to me. Even if I still don't agree on what water baptism does, I can see your point on this particular matter.
 
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ArmyMatt

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And from what I've read of Orthodoxy, I believe you. And that's different from in the RCC and to a degree in Anglicanism.

indeed as a former Anglican myself. remember as well that the real honor in the Church is holiness. so a real pious old laywoman is held in higher esteem than a worldly bishop.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Okay, that makes more sense to me. Even if I still don't agree on what water baptism does, I can see your point on this particular matter.

and as I said before, just leave it to being a mystery. which it is. we humans tend to run into trouble when we define stuff that God has not. we know water is used, we know what Scripture says, just leave it at that.
 
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CelticRebel

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and as I said before, just leave it to being a mystery. which it is. we humans tend to run into trouble when we define stuff that God has not. we know water is used, we know what Scripture says, just leave it at that.

I know I'm analytical, and that doesn't come from being a Western Christian, either. It comes from my father, whereas the other and opposite side of my personality comes from my mom.

I probably want to know too much.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I know I'm analytical, and that doesn't come from being a Western Christian, either. It comes from my father, whereas the other and opposite side of my personality comes from my mom.

I probably want to know too much.
You remind me of myself. ;)

Asking every question I could think of, wanting to analyze it all, create a systematic understanding. It's how I naturally am too.

(It's funny now, I can easily be pulled into a discussion that I can recognize as unprofitable now, and even unwise, but due to my natural inclination I still fall into it at times, even knowing a little bit better now.)

I'm not saying not to ask questions. A person must understand, and no one should blindly accept everything. Questions are good. :)

But it took me some time to begin to shift my way of approaching things. And it probably happened much more quickly than it might have done, since I really credit listening to AFR with helping me tremendously, and I would listen for hours every day.

Matt has great advice though. It's important to understand that some things we don't try to explain. :)
 
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CelticRebel

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You remind me of myself. ;)

I resemble that remark. :)

Asking every question I could think of, wanting to analyze it all, create a systematic understanding. It's how I naturally am too.

(It's funny now, I can easily be pulled into a discussion that I can recognize as unprofitable now, and even unwise, but due to my natural inclination I still fall into it at times, even knowing a little bit better now.)

I'm not saying not to ask questions. A person must understand, and no one should blindly accept everything. Questions are good. :)

But it took me some time to begin to shift my way of approaching things. And it probably happened much more quickly than it might have done, since I really credit listening to AFR with helping me tremendously, and I would listen for hours every day.

Matt has great advice though. It's important to understand that some things we don't try to explain. :)

Thanks! And see my comment highlighted in red in your post, after your first sentence. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I know I'm analytical, and that doesn't come from being a Western Christian, either. It comes from my father, whereas the other and opposite side of my personality comes from my mom.

I probably want to know too much.

oh I know, that is why I said we humans (myself totally included, hahahaha). and it is okay to want to know. it's just that when it's God at work often the way to know is to stand in silence and prayer.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Quakers would agree with that.

there is a nugget of Truth everywhere. Christ wants us to have all the Truth He offers, not just some of it. the problem with Quakers is since they are outside of the life of the Church, they don't have what God gives to cultivate that silence and prayer.
 
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~Anastasia~

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there is a nugget of Truth everywhere. Christ wants us to have all the Truth He offers, not just some of it. the problem with Quakers is since they are outside of the life of the Church, they don't have what God gives to cultivate that silence and prayer.

Good point. Simple silence and prayer can actually be dangerous without certain guidance.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Many Quakers have that guidance. Many do not. Just as in other traditions.
That's one tradition I never had opportunity to learn much about, though there was a time I was very interested, for just that reason.

If there are those who have guidance in that area, I'm glad for them. :)
 
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CelticRebel

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That's one tradition I never had opportunity to learn much about, though there was a time I was very interested, for just that reason.

If there are those who have guidance in that area, I'm glad for them. :)

Quakers have evolved in different directions since George Fox -- some closer to his original teachings than others. Some are conservative holiness leaning, and some can barely be recognized as Christians. The there's a centrist group, "programmed" and "unprogrammed" in worship. Many years ago, I considered myself a Quaker; I identified with them anyway, even though there were no churches anywhere close to me.
 
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~Anastasia~

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CR, I ran across something I was reading today on the GOARCH website about sacraments, and it made me think of you. It might make a little more sense of the idea of baptism and how that works - especially if you have the impression that we regard it as kind of "magical" and without any necessary faith at all on the part of man.

Anyway, here's the excerpt, and the link to the entire article should be above. (the added emphasis via bolding is mine)


HUMAN RESPONSE.

It is important now to emphasize the human factor as well, since salvation is accomplished by God in cooperation (synergy) with humanity. "The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with God require cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will" (Lev Gillet). The holy mysteries are neither magic nor mechanical operations. As the seed gives forth according to the ground into which it was planted, so the full effectiveness of the sacramental life is made manifest to a greater or lesser degree by the spiritual awareness, the faith and the devoutness of the partiapants. Yet no one, unless he has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, is left without some measure of grace, since the sun rises and shines upon all.

The holy mysteries are continually embracing, taking up and transforming the deepest and most fundamental human experiences. Intensely personal and at the same time intensely communal, the holy mysteries continuously and simultaneously renew the spirit of persons "who have put on the new man, which was created according to God, in righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24); they prepare the saints for the work of the ministry, until all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature manhood, and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:12-13).

As each holy mystery has its outward signs, which manifest the work of the Spirit, so each Christian life, sharing in the power of the holy mysteries, itself becomes a sacrament. As God permits and to the extent the will is sensitized, the mind is illumined and the heart is energized and made pure. Those who are Christ's, live and walk in the Spirit and the Spirit bears fruit in them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control (Gal. 5:22-25).

--- end quoted section

By the way, I thought it was included here, but it must have been in another section, but the article also discussed baptism, in a sense, as a process.

I hope this helps and doesn't further complicate matters. :) God be with you!
 
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~Anastasia~

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Quakers have evolved in different directions since George Fox -- some closer to his original teachings than others. Some are conservative holiness leaning, and some can barely be recognized as Christians. The there's a centrist group, "programmed" and "unprogrammed" in worship. Many years ago, I considered myself a Quaker; I identified with them anyway, even though there were no churches anywhere close to me.

Thank you, that's interesting. I don't know that I'll ever get through my current reading list, LOL, but if I get back around to comparing and tracing development of denominations, I'll have to look more into that. That's more than the little I knew. Thanks again. :)
 
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CelticRebel

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CR, I ran across something I was reading today on the GOARCH website about sacraments, and it made me think of you. It might make a little more sense of the idea of baptism and how that works - especially if you have the impression that we regard it as kind of "magical" and without any necessary faith at all on the part of man.

Anyway, here's the excerpt, and the link to the entire article should be above. (the added emphasis via bolding is mine)


HUMAN RESPONSE.

It is important now to emphasize the human factor as well, since salvation is accomplished by God in cooperation (synergy) with humanity. "The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with God require cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will" (Lev Gillet). The holy mysteries are neither magic nor mechanical operations. As the seed gives forth according to the ground into which it was planted, so the full effectiveness of the sacramental life is made manifest to a greater or lesser degree by the spiritual awareness, the faith and the devoutness of the partiapants. Yet no one, unless he has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, is left without some measure of grace, since the sun rises and shines upon all.

The holy mysteries are continually embracing, taking up and transforming the deepest and most fundamental human experiences. Intensely personal and at the same time intensely communal, the holy mysteries continuously and simultaneously renew the spirit of persons "who have put on the new man, which was created according to God, in righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24); they prepare the saints for the work of the ministry, until all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature manhood, and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:12-13).

As each holy mystery has its outward signs, which manifest the work of the Spirit, so each Christian life, sharing in the power of the holy mysteries, itself becomes a sacrament. As God permits and to the extent the will is sensitized, the mind is illumined and the heart is energized and made pure. Those who are Christ's, live and walk in the Spirit and the Spirit bears fruit in them: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control (Gal. 5:22-25).

--- end quoted section

By the way, I thought it was included here, but it must have been in another section, but the article also discussed baptism, in a sense, as a process.

I hope this helps and doesn't further complicate matters. :) God be with you!

Kylissa, thank you so much for posting this. Yes, it is helpful!

Update: I have now read the entire article referenced above. I wanted to comment on this that I read there: "The outward signs of the mysteries convey grace tangibly not of themselves but by the very present of the Holy Spirit in them." I would not say that the Holy Spirit is present in the mysteries (water; bread and wine, etc.), but that the Holy Spirit uses these as tools to work within us. Some might see this as a distinction without a difference, but I see it as a significant difference.
 
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CelticRebel

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Thank you, that's interesting. I don't know that I'll ever get through my current reading list, LOL, but if I get back around to comparing and tracing development of denominations, I'll have to look more into that. That's more than the little I knew. Thanks again. :)

You are quite welcome!
 
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ArmyMatt

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I would not say that the Holy Spirit is present in the mysteries (water; bread and wine, etc.), but that the Holy Spirit uses these as tools to work within us. Some might see this as a distinction without a difference, but I see it as a significant difference.

what is the difference?
 
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