Immaculate Conception

[amariselle]

Believing in Christ involves a lot of different things.

• Eating His flesh and drinking His blood. John 6:51-58
• Doing God's will. Matthew 25:31-40
• Repenting. (Too many verses to list)
• Being baptised. Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27 and more.

Only believing is nececary for salvation, as our faith is in His finished work. The rest is discipleship and comes after we've been born again, passed from death to life, received the Holy Spirit and can thereafter grow in His grace and in Christian maturity.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Water baptism follows belief and is a proclamation whereby we identify with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and Communion is an act of remembrance, as Christ said it would be.

God bless.

 

[Major1]

Believe as you like. The entire context makes it clear that He was teaching a parable.

I do wonder why so many have a hard time accepting that fact in this particular instance, when no one believes that Jesus is a literal door/gate, a literal shepherd who cares for literal sheep, a literal vine, literal bread, a literal lamb, gives us literal water etc.

Parables were a major and consistent part of Jesus' earthly ministry. He often used physical, earthly things that His listeners were familiar with to convey a spiritual truth.

Agreed.

IMO parables were real stories given for the purpose of teaching those who were hard to learn and understand.

 

[prodromos]

Only believing is nececary for salvation, as our faith is in His finished work. The rest is discipleship and comes after we've been born again, passed from death to life, received the Holy Spirit and can thereafter grow in His grace and in Christian maturity.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Water baptism follows belief and is a proclamation whereby we identify with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and Communion is an act of remembrance, as Christ said it would be.

God bless.

I notice in your Bible search for "believe", you've left out all the passages that say "believe and..."

 

[amariselle]

I notice in your Bible search for "believe", you've left out all the passages that say "believe and..."

Please give a specific reference, by all means.

Also, I did not just randomly do a Bible search for the word "believe." Those are all verses I'm very familiar with, through study.

 

[Major1]

Believing in Christ involves a lot of different things.

• Eating His flesh and drinking His blood. John 6:51-58
• Doing God's will. Matthew 25:31-40
• Repenting. (Too many verses to list)
• Being baptised. Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27 and more.

You are welcome to you opinion and I welcome them as it gives us an opportunity to get out the Word of God.

With all due respect my brother, you are Biblically wrong. That may be the Orthodox and Catholic teaching but it certainly is not the Biblical one. Now my responses to you concern the act of salvation.
Believing in Christ only requires ONE thing........Faith.

To be saved, one must first believe that Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ the son of God.

1).
Transubstantiation which you listed first is a RCC production exclusively. There are NO Bible Scriptures to validate that process. Even if it were true it would only be done AFTER one believes and comes to Christ.

2).
Doing God's will is of course something every born again believer should want to do, but it is NOT involved in believing. It is done AFTER we come to Christ and is an act of obedience. It is done because we Love Him and want to done works that please Him but those works do not save us neither do they keep us saved.

3). Repenting is actually "Changing direction". It means that in one second we were lost and on our way to hell. However, the gift of faith and the conviction of our sin by the Holy Spirit led us to BELIEVE on Christ and by that action we were saved and one moment later we were on our way to heaven.

4.) NO! Water baptism has nothing to do with believing or being saved. It is an act of obedience which all believers should do AFTER they are saved but it is not a part of being saved.

Acts 16:30........
"Then he [the Philippian jailor] brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Acts 16:31........
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …!

No record of eating the flesh of Jesus. No record of being baptized. No record of keeping the will of God. No record of repenting although repenting is the natural process of changing after we are saved.

Pauls answer was........"BELIEVE".

The passage is important in relation to the topic of salvation or, technically, soteriology. In everyday language, salvation has to do with how we are saved or delivered from our fallen condition.

When it comes to salvation Christianity is Savior-centered, not self-centered as seen in Ephesians 2:8-9.........
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast".

John 3:3.......
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[prodromos]

Please give a specific reference, by all means.

Also, I did not just randomly do a Bible search for the word "believe." Those are all verses I'm very familiar with, through study.

I already gave you Mark 16:16

 

[prodromos]

Transubstantiation which you listed first is a RCC production exclusively.

I never mentioned "Transubstantiation". What I did mention is the belief of both Lutherans and Methodists who make up 20% of Protestants.

 

[Major1]

I already gave you Mark 16:16

Mark is NOT saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.. Please read the verse and you will see that he is saying the person who is saved will be baptized. That is an act of obedience and not one of salvation.

It is the rejection of Christ which brings eternal damnation.

John 3:36............
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"

 

[Major1]

I never mentioned "Transubstantiation". What I did mention is the belief of both Lutherans and Methodists who make up 20% of Protestants.

You said.........."Eating His flesh and drinking His blood".

Isn't that Transubstantiation??????

A horse of another color is still horse is it not?

 

[prodromos]

You said.........."Eating His flesh and drinking His blood".

Isn't that Transubstantiation??????

No.

 

[Major1]

No.

Then you need to explain what it is to all of us because you have just confused me.

Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

 

[Major1]

Your 'rightly dividing' does not remotely address why some of Jesus' disciples left Him.

They left because they could not understand what He was telling them. If they could not handle the thought He told them they could not handle the brutality of the cross.

 

[Erose]

They left because they could not understand what He was telling them. If they could not handle the thought He told them they could not handle the brutality of the cross.

No they left because the understood exactly what He was telling them.

 

[Albion]

They left because they could not understand what He was telling them. If they could not handle the thought He told them they could not handle the brutality of the cross.

This is quite true...and it is repeated throughout the Gospels. In addition to his coming crucifixion, they--or some of them--clearly showed an inability to understand Jesus before his arrest and after the Resurrection as well.

 

[amariselle]

Mark is NOT saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.. Please read the verse and you will see that he is saying the person who is saved will be baptized. That is an act of obedience and not one of salvation.

It is the rejection of Christ which brings eternal damnation.

John 3:36............
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"

I was just going to reply by explaining this, but you beat me to it.

Also, we can look at the example of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch for further clarification:

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.' - Acts 8:26-40

Baptism follows faith.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As to "believing in Christ" meaning "simple mental assent" we know that "even the demons believe and tremble". They not only believe (mental assent) and know who Christ is, they also respect and fear Him. Yet they are not "saved". Simple mental assent is not what the Scriptures mean when they say we must believe in Christ.

Many times things are lost in translation when we do not have a word in English that conveys the richness of meaning found in the Greek.

When it concerns something as vital as salvation, it's worth studying out carefully.

 

[amariselle]

As to "believing in Christ" meaning "simple mental assent" we know that "even the demons believe and tremble". They not only believe (mental assent) and know who Christ is, they also respect and fear Him. Yet they are not "saved". Simple mental assent is not what the Scriptures mean when they say we must believe in Christ.

Many times things are lost in translation when we do not have a word in English that conveys the richness of meaning found in the Greek.

When it concerns something as vital as salvation, it's worth studying out carefully.

Agreed. And faith is, in fact, far more than mere "mental assent."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Agreed. And faith is, in fact, far more than mere "mental assent."

Agreed.

I like some of the passages that speak of living faith, and dead faith, and vain faith, and so on by contrast.

And I have experienced how the way we cooperate with God in living our lives helps to strengthen and increase our faith, so this has helped me understand the dynamics from an experiential standpoint as well.

God be with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed.

I like some of the passages that speak of living faith, and dead faith, and vain faith, and so on by contrast.

And I have experienced how the way we cooperate with God in living our lives helps to strengthen and increase our faith, so this has helped me understand the dynamics from an experiential standpoint as well.

God be with you.

And it matters greatly what the object of our faith is. If, as in this particular thread, one places one's faith in a dubious doctrine about a person who is not God, then one's faith is misplaced and is in vain. However, if one's faith is truly in the person and work of Jesus Christ, then one's faith is precious in God's sight.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And it matters greatly what the object of our faith is. If, as in this particular thread, one places one's faith in a dubious doctrine about a person who is not God, then one's faith is misplaced and is in vain. However, if one's faith is truly in the person and work of Jesus Christ, then one's faith is precious in God's sight.

Well ... Orthodox do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, and we further disagree with the theology that makes it important to Catholics. We are on very opposite sides of the issue from them.

However, to be fair, I doubt any Catholics place their faith in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Their faith is in Christ, just as mine is, and your own as well. We are just disagreeing about some of the details of how that comes about.

Not that those details are unimportant. I think they are important. But it's really not fair to consider that Catholics place their faith in the IC rather than in Christ.

Peace be with you.