Immaculate Conception

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rdBGd5W99F

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Hello,

I don't come from a Catholic background, and would appreciate hearing some of the scriptures and church doctrine that outlines the immaculate conception. It's a topic of which I am fairly ignorant, and even the purpose of the doctrine (as I understand it) is probably off-base.

Thank you, and God bless
 

Phil 1:21

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Luke 1:26-38

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Hi there,

Thanks for the reply. This is more explaining the virgin birth than immaculate conception, at least as far as I understand.

From what I've heard/read, immaculate conception doesn't refer to the virgin birth of Jesus, but Mary being born free from original sin. Am I right in that?

Oh, I misunderstood what you were asking. Yeah, there is no Biblical reference for that. It's Catholic dogma, nothing more. If you're looking for the CCC references, someone will hopefully come alone and provide them.
 
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tampasteve

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There is a good explanation here: Catholics United for the Faith | The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception | Teaching the Catholic Faith
Here are a couple take away's from that web page:
Mary’s Immaculate Conception should be seen as the way God wanted all of us to come into the world: in the state of sanctifying grace and free from original sin, just like Adam and Eve.

God’s original plan was for all humans to begin their existence in the family of God in the state of sanctifying grace. It was only as a result of Original Sin that we are now conceived in a state deprived of sanctifying grace. Mary, rather than being the exception, fulfills in a real sense the original intention of what God wanted for all His human children: to be members of His family from the first moment of their existence.
At the Annunciation, Saint Gabriel the Archangel greets Mary with the words, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitoméne. This word conveys a sense of completion and perfection that was already present at the time of the Annunciation. Mary’s holiness was not only as complete as possible, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward.

From this it follows that:

the Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived in the womb of her mother without the stain of original sin. The essence of original sin consists in the lack of sanctifying grace. Mary was preserved from this defect; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace.

Because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve, all of their descendants fell from grace and are held in the bondage of sin. One of the effects of this original sin is our weakened freedom (cf. Rom. 7:14). Because of the special grace bestowed on her by God “in the fullness of time” (Gal. 4:4), Mary was preserved from enslavement to sin. Therefore, she was able to exercise her freedom completely in choosing to say “yes” to God. Her fiat—“Let it be to me according to your word” (Lk. 1:38)—is complete and wholehearted. Her “yes,” given with full integrity, completely reverses Eve’s “no.”
 
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Albion

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There are a jillion interesting theories about all sorts of things found in the Bible --"Mary’s Immaculate Conception should be seen as the way God wanted all of us to come into the world,..." for example.

What matters is which of them is true, if any.
 
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tampasteve

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There are a jillion interesting theories about all sorts of things found in the Bible --"Mary’s Immaculate Conception should be seen as the way God wanted all of us to come into the world,..." for example.

What matters is which of them is true, if any.

Very true. I myself do not believe in it. However, if one is Catholic or thinking about it then the argument can be made for the belief, so I would not find it a stumbling block. Indeed, when I was an active RCC member I took it as a matter of faith belief rather than something preventing me from staying in the RCC.
 
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FrankDux

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Well, I know it's convent to ignore, but the Bible is rife with mathematical astronomy and astronomy in general, both of which Christ would have been schooled in

The basis of the Jewish calendar is a " birth " AKA " Molad "

If you think the " virgin birth " story and " births " (Molads) have nothing to do with each other, I would suggest you've not actually studied the scriptures :)
 
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gabbi0408

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I'm a convert. I was raised Methodist. I never heard about the Immaculate Conception (that I can remember) until after I was Catholic.

In learning more about the faith, I came to understand why this teaching is what it is and why it makes so much sense.

Non-Catholic Christianity tends to approach belief with the Bible as the basis for everything. However, prior to Protestantism that is not the way scripture was ever viewed. Also, the Catholic Church predates the Bible and there are consistent beliefs that were never questioned until after the Reformation. The Immaculate Conception is one of those beliefs.

Mary is the "new Eve" just as Jesus is the new Adam. Think of this:

Eve was created without sin. She chose to disobey God, and choose sin.

Mary was immaculately conceived, saved by God at her conception. She was without sin like Eve when she chose to do God's will. She said yes to God and no to sin.

Mary is the "Ark of the New Covenant." This understanding refers to certain scriptures in the Old Testament regarding the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark was the dwelling place of God. It was so holy that no human could touch it. In fact Uzzah was killed on the spot when he went to steady it to keep it from falling. In it were three things: the 10 commandments, the Word of God. The Manna, the miraculous bread from heaven. The rod of Aaron, the authority and rule of the high priest.

Mary also was made holy by God to carry his Son. In her womb was "the true Bread of life." The true "Word of God" and the true "High Priest."

Also in the Old Testament, when David sees the Ark he leaps for joy and says "how is it that the Ark of the Lord should come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says: "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" And John the Baptists "leaps" for joy in her womb. There is more on this: Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant | Catholic Answers

Catholics understand that the Immaculate Conception is fitting. God gives us this miracle of Mary's conception to understand the truth that God, his Son, became incarnate. That he is the Messiah.

For me, as a convert, I find these beautiful. I have also had the scriptures opened to me in a way I never had before as a Methodist. The use of typology in scripture is gives such depth and meaning to scriptures that before I just took at face value. It's worth looking at with fresh eyes, and an open heart.

Here are a few more articles. It is worth noting that the Immaculate Conception was believed by all Catholics very early on. It was not defined and promulgated until the belief was brought into question in the late 19th century.

StayCatholic.com - ECF Immaculate Conception
Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers
The Immaculate Conception in Scripture | Catholic Answers
 
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Mountainmike

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Hello,

I don't come from a Catholic background, and would appreciate hearing some of the scriptures and church doctrine that outlines the immaculate conception. It's a topic of which I am fairly ignorant, and even the purpose of the doctrine (as I understand it) is probably off-base.

Thank you, and God bless

There is a lot of backround to this.

My suggestion is read "behold your mother" by staples which goes through the scriptural , historical, justification , background, early church fathers and so on on all of the marian doctrines. And each doctrine is justified in one chapter, after which there is a chapter on why the common objections don't stack up for each specific doctrine. For immaculate conception - which is much linked to the concept of the "new eve" , that runs to 30 pages, so impossible to present it all here.

Since all the marian doctrines dovetail together, I suggest you read it. Fascinating book.Best I have seen on marian doctrines, far more detailed and sophisticated than such as Hahns "hail holy queen" , indeed many of the articles on the web which only scratch the surface.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Just as an interesting aside to the high value God places on Mary, I've attached the following link. It's an interview with a Catholic exorcist, Fr. Pedro Barrajon.

Pedro Barrajon, Paul Badde: Hell is a state (28/12/2005) - signandsight

At one point, he is describing part of the procedures of a (Catholic) exorcism.

Why doesn't he (demon) want to reveal his name?

The name discloses his being. Franz Rosenzweig once said the name is not "sound and smoke", as Goethe says, but "word and fire". The name Jesus means "God saves". Isaac, Jacob, all these names have a particular meaning. And it always discloses the person's being. When I say my name, I'm also saying: I am here. No Demon ever wants to say its name.

And once it's said it?

At the end, the priest says to the demon, "Go away! Disappear!" The demon usually answers, "No, I don't want to." It rebels and revolts. Sometimes it says "You have no power over me. You are nothing to me." But after a while, its resistance weakens. This usually happens after the invocation of the Holy Mother, she's very important for that. No demon ever dares to insult her during an exorcism. Never.

Does he have more respect for Mary than for God himself?

Apparently. Otherwise no holds are barred, and everyone is insulted: the priests, everyone present, the bishops, the Pope, even Jesus Christ. But never the Virgin Mary. It's an enigma.

What this means is that God won't let even His arch-enemy, the devil blaspheme His Mother, or more accurately, the mother of His Divine Son. I suppose it's a bit like a strong man who doesn't care one bit what you say about Him, but woe betide you if you blaspheme his mother!

She wasn't just any ordinary young Jewish lady. God had her in mind from the beginning, and so there must have been an inordinate holiness about her.
 
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kepha31

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An Ordinary Woman and Mother of God
Ven. Catherine Doherty

Consider Mary as she really is. Everybody honors Our Lady. Of course she is to be honored. She is the Mother of God. But I would like to tell of her ordinary life.

There are many women like me (the author) who feel that she is so high up that nobody can touch her. It is true that she is high up, but she is also very ordinary.

What did she do all day? I imagine she washed and scrubbed and cleaned. She was married to a carpenter. She wasn't a big shot in Nazareth. Nazareth was a small town. Joseph wasn't a big shot, just a carpenter.

She tended to her husband and Son, especially when he was small. She cooked, she scrubbed and she washed and wove and attended to the garden and did the laundry. Our Lady was the first person who really knew how to do the will of God in its minute details.

I revel in her normality because she is ordinary and at the same time extraordinary. It was an ordinary household and that is a most fantastic thing. Our Lord chose for his mother a working woman; that's what she was, a working woman.

She got up in the morning, and on some days of the week carried the laundry to the pool. The women of Nazareth must have come to her constantly because she was who she was. She must have kept, not a cookie jar, but the Eastern sweets that all the Eastern people love, and children must have come to her.

I think of her in realistic terms, but I also think of her as the woman with the power to stand silently under the cross of her Son, and in some sort of an incredible way, I understand that at that moment she became the mother of all humanity, for whom he died.

She's the woman of speech and she's the woman of silence. She's stronger than an army in battle array and as weak with God as only a woman can be. She dusted and she cleaned. And she cooked and she knew how to weave.

She wove his seamless garment. Her life was a sea of small things so infinitely small that they're almost not worth mentioning. The corn had to be ground, her house swept, the meals prepared; day after day the Mother of God did those things.

From her we can learn the quality of listening, and of taking up the words of others as well as the words of God, holding them in our hearts until the Holy Spirit cracks them wide open and gives us the answer as he did to her as her Spouse.

You asked me to explain who Our Lady is. You could say that she's the gate. She's the gate to the way to the Father, because it is through her that Christ came to us and it is through her that we return to Him.
Madonna House Apostolate - a Catholic Community
 
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Albion

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The doctrine (of Mary being conceived without original sin) rests upon a misreading of one verse--Luke 1:28.

Most translations have it "(Mary) has found favor with God" or "highly favored by God." However, older translations have it as "full of grace." Grace is God's favor shed upon us, of course.

But the Immaculate Conception is deduced from that "full of grace" wording by interpreting it as meaning that she was literally full of something, like a spiritual gas tank. And if she was full, presumably there wouldn't be any sin.

The shortcomings in the theory are many and the doctrine rests as much on speculation as upon this verse.
 
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kepha31

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The doctrine (of Mary being conceived without original sin) rests upon a misreading of one verse--Luke 1:28.

Most translations have it "(Mary) has found favor with God" or "highly favored by God." However, older translations have it as "full of grace." Grace is God's favor shed upon us, of course.

But the Immaculate Conception is deduced from that "full of grace" wording by interpreting it as meaning that she was literally full of something, like a spiritual gas tank. And if she was full, presumably there wouldn't be any sin.

The shortcomings in the theory are many and the doctrine rests as much on speculation as upon this verse.
Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).​

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
00​
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (cf. Romans 5:17, Romans 5:20-21, 2 Corinthians 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10: 00” (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:
1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.
2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.
3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.
5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.
7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises,
- and hold either that grace does not save
- or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy.

It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions.
Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception



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Constantine the Sinner

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It's predicated on the Catholic idea that existence itself is sin, if you are descended from Adam. In order to justify Mary being God's vessel, there had to be a loophole for her, so the idea that she evaded that issue with her conception it what they came up with.

From an Orthodox perspective, existence is not a sin, but we do inherit corruption, that is, mortality from Adam (as in, your body gets old and decays and dies). Mary did inherit that, and in Orthodox she is considered to have fallen asleep in Lord (died), which we call her Dormition. Christ is also considered to have inherited that corruption from Adam (although it is abolished in his Resurrection), and the belief that he did not is known as "aphthartodocetism," which we reject.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I'm a convert. I was raised Methodist. I never heard about the Immaculate Conception (that I can remember) until after I was Catholic.

In learning more about the faith, I came to understand why this teaching is what it is and why it makes so much sense.

Non-Catholic Christianity tends to approach belief with the Bible as the basis for everything. However, prior to Protestantism that is not the way scripture was ever viewed. Also, the Catholic Church predates the Bible and there are consistent beliefs that were never questioned until after the Reformation. The Immaculate Conception is one of those beliefs.

Mary is the "new Eve" just as Jesus is the new Adam. Think of this:

Eve was created without sin. She chose to disobey God, and choose sin.

Mary was immaculately conceived, saved by God at her conception. She was without sin like Eve when she chose to do God's will. She said yes to God and no to sin.

Mary is the "Ark of the New Covenant." This understanding refers to certain scriptures in the Old Testament regarding the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark was the dwelling place of God. It was so holy that no human could touch it. In fact Uzzah was killed on the spot when he went to steady it to keep it from falling. In it were three things: the 10 commandments, the Word of God. The Manna, the miraculous bread from heaven. The rod of Aaron, the authority and rule of the high priest.

Mary also was made holy by God to carry his Son. In her womb was "the true Bread of life." The true "Word of God" and the true "High Priest."

Also in the Old Testament, when David sees the Ark he leaps for joy and says "how is it that the Ark of the Lord should come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says: "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" And John the Baptists "leaps" for joy in her womb. There is more on this: Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant | Catholic Answers

Catholics understand that the Immaculate Conception is fitting. God gives us this miracle of Mary's conception to understand the truth that God, his Son, became incarnate. That he is the Messiah.

For me, as a convert, I find these beautiful. I have also had the scriptures opened to me in a way I never had before as a Methodist. The use of typology in scripture is gives such depth and meaning to scriptures that before I just took at face value. It's worth looking at with fresh eyes, and an open heart.

Here are a few more articles. It is worth noting that the Immaculate Conception was believed by all Catholics very early on. It was not defined and promulgated until the belief was brought into question in the late 19th century.

StayCatholic.com - ECF Immaculate Conception
Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers
The Immaculate Conception in Scripture | Catholic Answers
We also consider Mary to be the Ark of the New Covenant, although we do not uphold her immaculate conception, mainly because the idea is incoherent for us. Also, we don't have Marian Dogmas. Mary is only called Theokos dogmatically for the same reason Theophaschism (the belief that God was Crucified) is upheld dogmatically, as an expression of Christ's hypostatic unity.

Dogma, for us, is basically four things: who God is, who Christ is, what Christ did, and how we are called to respond. Plenty of other facts are taught by the Church, such as those about Mary and about other saints, but while we accept these teachings as true, we don't understand them as dogma--dogma is a pretty narrow category.
 
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kepha31

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It's predicated on the Catholic idea that existence itself is sin, if you are descended from Adam. In order to justify Mary being God's vessel, there had to be a loophole for her, so the idea that she evaded that issue with her conception it what they came up with.

From an Orthodox perspective, existence is not a sin, but we do inherit corruption, that is, mortality from Adam (as in, your body gets old and decays and dies). Mary did inherit that, and in Orthodox she is considered to have fallen asleep in Lord (died), which we call her Dormition. Christ is also considered to have inherited that corruption from Adam (although it is abolished in his Resurrection), and the belief that he did not is known as "aphthartodocetism," which we reject.
It is not only Protestants who seriously misunderstand the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church. Surprisingly, various Eastern Orthodox who have traditionally manifested a deep and devout veneration of the Theotokos (Mother of God) are seen to deviate from their own ancient traditions. Thus one finds astonishing the views of Archbishop John Maximovitch (1896-1966) who possessed a reputation as a holy ascetic (he was “glorified” [canonized] by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in 1994, this being later acknowledged by the patriarchate of Moscow in 2008).
In his The Orthodox Veneration of the Birthgiver of God (given wide circulation by the St. Herman Brotherhood, fourth printing, 1994), he vigorously denied that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, was sinless throughout her life (see pp. 59-60). Regarded as a saint by many Orthodox, he proceeded to contradict the common teaching of other Orthodox who confess “the perfect personal immaculateness and perfect sanctity of the Mother of God” (cf. Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, p. 195).

The sinlessness of Mary is professed in various Orthodox catechisms as well as in the Byzantine liturgy and the writings of the Greek Fathers who excluded any possibility of sin in her. Exalted in Byzantine Greco-Slav piety as next to Christ and the holiest of human beings, as “full of grace,” “more glorious than the Cherubim and more honorable than the Seraphim,” “more worthy than all creatures and holier than all the Saints,” the Blessed Virgin is praised for surpassing all creatures in purity. Venerable liturgical expressions that the Theotokos was “alone absolutely immaculate” and “alone ever blessed” were understood by centuries of Eastern Christians as meaning she was ever free from actual sin.
As St. Thomas Aquinas would affirm: “The Blessed Virgin was chosen by Heaven to be the Mother of God; but she would not have been a Mother fitting for God, had she ever sinned. Therefore we must simply confess that the Blessed Virgin Mary never committed any kind of [actual] sin whatsoever” (Summa Theologiae, III, Q. xxvii, art. 4).

Moreover, such expressions as the above would soon be seen as pointing to her being conceived without original sin and so graced as to never having been under the power of the Devil. When Blessed Pius IX defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 to the consternation of some Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox theologian Professor Christopher Damalas stated in 1855: “We have always held and taught this doctrine. This point is too sacred to give rise to quarrels.” The Russian Orthodox theologian Lev Gillet would affirm more recently that “not only does the Immaculate Conception not contradict any Orthodox dogma, but that it is a necessary and logical development of the whole of Orthodox belief.”

However, Archbishop Maximovitch combined his assault on the “Papal Church” with rejection of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which, in fact, finds support in the teaching of Eastern Fathers and saints and later Greek and Russian theologians. “This [Catholic] teaching denies all her virtues. After all, if Mary by the grace [of the Immaculate Conception] was preserved from sin even after her birth, then in what does her merit exist?”

Catholic theologian Robert Stackpole in a superb chapter “The Immaculate Conception in Catholic Apologetics” in the volume The Immaculate Conception in the Life of the Church (Marian Press, Stockbridge, Mass.: 2004) handily refuted this and other objections of the archbishop.

What the latter had failed to understand is that the Holy Spirit could and did preserve Mary from the stain of original sin so that she was holy from the very beginning of her earthly life. She was never deprived of the Holy Spirit and His divinizing grace, the absence of which results in a disordered nature and the inclination to sin (concupiscence). Mary was without concupiscence and did not lose free will and could cooperate with grace to surrender her will in faith and love and obedience to the Lord. It was precisely her cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit that enabled the All-Holy Virgin Mary to freely surrender herself to the will of God at the Annunciation. As Dr. Stackpole observed, “It is in this surrender to God that her merit consists.”

The Orthodox archbishop also mistakenly charged St. Augustine and St. Ambrose as including Mary among those infected with the taint of original sin. St. Augustine actually wrote that he excepted from sin the Holy Virgin Mary “concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins.” St. Ambrose called Mary “a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Neither St. Augustine nor St. Ambrose may be said to have explicitly taught the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., she was holy in her very conception) but neither can it be said that they (and other fathers of the ancient Church) contradicted it. They rather prepared the way for its doctrinal development.

The archbishop also took to task the term “Co-Redemptrix” for our Lady which, like “Mother of God” is also so misunderstood by Protestants. The term “co” does not mean “co-equal” to suggest that she is a redeemer co-equal with Christ. Rather, the prefix “co” comes from the Latin “cum,” meaning “with.” The term as applied to the Mother of our Lord refers to her role of cooperating in and of participating in the unique redemptive saving work of Christ. She participated in a special way in the actions, sufferings, and death of Christ, so as to be a co-redemptrix with Christ but never the equal of our Redeemer. She is always a creature though the first to be redeemed by Christ and in the most excellent way, as the great Franciscan doctor, Blessed John Duns Scotus, would affirm.
In noting the great Catholic renaissance in Marian theology that took place in the 19th and 20th centuries, a contemporary Orthodox theologian, M.C. Steenberg, has fortunately provided a fitting antidote to Archbishop Maximovitch’s mistaken criticism:

“The language of ‘mediatrix,’ ‘co-redeemer,’ ‘advocate’ — the terms and concepts at the heart of Catholic renewal in Marian devotion — have had a long history in Orthodox tradition. . . . Multiple services petition Mary as the ‘mediatrix of our salvation’…and the Akathistos hymn to the Mother of God ends with a prayer that proclaims Mary as the only help and protection of Christians. . . . In Orthodox devotional practice, Mary is also proclaimed ‘co-redemptrix,’ ‘mediatrix,’ ‘advocate’.”
In conclusion, a more profound examination of the rich theological resources retained in the apostolic tradition of both East and West regarding the exalted sanctity of the Mother of God will do much to remove the obstacles which impede the long-hoped-for dogmatic Reunion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
May the prayers of the Most Holy Virgin Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and Help of Christians, hasten that day.

How The Eastern Orthodox Misunderstand Catholic Marian Doctrine
 
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bbbbbbb

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We also consider Mary to be the Ark of the New Covenant, although we do not uphold her immaculate conception, mainly because the idea is incoherent for us. Also, we don't have Marian Dogmas. Mary is only called Theokos dogmatically for the same reason Theophaschism (the belief that God was Crucified) is upheld dogmatically, as an expression of Christ's hypostatic unity.

Dogma, for us, is basically four things: who God is, who Christ is, what Christ did, and how we are called to respond. Plenty of other facts are taught by the Church, such as those about Mary and about other saints, but while we accept these teachings as true, we don't understand them as dogma--dogma is a pretty narrow category.

Well put. This is why when it comes down to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, only the Roman Catholic Church views it as such.
 
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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history. We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.

This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.
 
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bbbbbbb

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At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history. We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tatamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.

This entire theory fell apart about 200 years ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.

This whole theory is rife with potential difficulties, as you well know, not the least of which is if Mary was born sinless, and her parents were sinful themselves, what happened? And, if that could happen with Mary, why was it that it could not have happened with Jesus Christ?
 
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gabbi0408

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This whole theory is rife with potential difficulties, as you well know, not the least of which is if Mary was born sinless, and her parents were sinful themselves, what happened? And, if that could happen with Mary, why was it that it could not have happened with Jesus Christ?

Mary was saved "at her conception" from the stain of original sin. The sinfulness of her parents plays no part in that.

It could have happened with Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach that it "had" to happen that way, only that it was fitting that it did. Everything God does is for our benefit, not because he must do it this way or that way. God didn't have to use a human being at all, he could have taken on flesh and arrived on earth 33 years old if he chose to. But he chose to come through a human woman, to take his flesh from her, to be one of us. He prepared his mother in a loving way, allowing her the grace to bear the God-man and to bear the suffering that would pierce her heart. Luke 2:34-35
 
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