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Major1

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What I find odd was your comment after just being corrected. Unless I'm misunderstanding this reply, you still have it wrong. They (Lutherans and Anglicans) do indeed believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.

That is what I have said all along. The point is, Transubstantiation is a product of the RCC and is not a Biblical doctrine in any way.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

Those who follow that doctrine are doing so in the spirit and knowledge of the RCC and not the Word of God IMO. That is all I have argued on the subject. If anyone wants to believe this RCC doctrine then wonderful, do it. But it can not be done so on the claim that it is a Biblical doctrine.

The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again.
 
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Major1

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Not quite.

There are areas where the Church gives us boundaries, and we are free to believe anything within those boundaries.

However, as far as the Eucharist is concerned, we are given certain things, and the rest is acknowledged as Mystery. That IS the belief. If we go into an attempt to define the Mystery, we have gone outside the boundary. We are not free to imagine whatever we think happens, and believe that we are right.

So no, we cannot subscribe to all of these other teachings. We have our teaching. And it is ... we know a, b, and c. The rest is a mystery. And we refer to them as "the Holy Mysteries".

I hope this makes sense?

So then if a "Mystery" is given a leash and allowed to run its course, it is like a river going down the mountain. It will always follow the path of least resistance and when a man in charge or a particular church is in command, the people who DO NOT KNOW what the mystery is, will follow it or him and the result in the past has always been a disaster.

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them with truth, for thy Word is truth".

No mystery there my dear friends.
 
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~Anastasia~

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So then if a "Mystery" is given a leash and allowed to run its course, it is like a river going down the mountain. It will always follow the path of least resistance and when a man in charge or a particular church is in command, the people who DO NOT KNOW what the mystery is, will follow it or him and the result in the past has always been a disaster.

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them with truth, for thy Word is truth".

No mystery there my dear friends.
Sigh .... no.

You are reading things into it. While not actually hearing what I AM saying. Presumably you wish to read these things into it.

In 2000 years it hasn't happened.
 
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~Anastasia~

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So then if a "Mystery" is given a leash and allowed to run its course, it is like a river going down the mountain. It will always follow the path of least resistance and when a man in charge or a particular church is in command, the people who DO NOT KNOW what the mystery is, will follow it or him and the result in the past has always been a disaster.

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them with truth, for thy Word is truth".

No mystery there my dear friends.
Incidentally, the "man in charge" is the reason we are a conciliar Church, as we have been since the time of the book of Acts.

No man can do such a thing. This is exactly why we are not in communion with the Pope of Rome.
 
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FenderTL5

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Erose

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The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again.
This is where you are completely wrong. The Catholic Church DOES NOT view the Mass as a re-sacrifice. This is false, and complete misrepresentation of the teaching of the Catholic Church. We believe that it is a representation of the ONE sacrifice that Jesus gave at Calvary.
 
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All4Christ

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So we are back then with Orthodoxy teaching consubstantiation. In all honesty Anastasia, Major 1 had a point. When you leave things open to interpretation, then quite frankly its open. It seems to me that in Orthodoxy, you can believe whatever you want, as long as you believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. This means that under the umbrella of Orthodoxy, Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, the Anglican, and Catholics are all right.
Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.

Priest (in a low voice): Together with these blessed powers, Master, Who loves mankind, we also exclaim and say: Holy are You and most holy, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. Holy are You and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only-begotten Son so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. When He had come and fulfilled for our sake the entire plan of salvation, on the night in which He was delivered up, or rather when He delivered Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, and, giving thanks and blessing, He hallowed and broke it, and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

The Priest exclaims:

Take, eat, this is My Body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

The Priest then says in a low voice:

Likewise, after partaking of the supper, He took the cup, saying,

The Priest again exclaims:

Drink of this, all of you; this is My Blood of the new covenant, which is shed for you and for many for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

Then the Priest says in a low voice:

Remembering, therefore, this saving commandment and all that has been done for our sake: the Cross, the tomb, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming again.

And he exclaims:

Your own of Your own we offer to You, in all and for all.

People: We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.

Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we beseech and pray and entreat You: Send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon the gifts here presented,

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Bread, says:

Bless, Master, the Holy Bread.

And the Priest blesses over the holy Bread and says:

And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward the holy Chalice, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, the holy Cup.

The Priest, blessing over the holy Chalice, says:

And that which is in this Cup, the precious Blood of Your Christ.

The Deacon, gesturing with his orarion toward both Holy Gifts, says:

Amen. Bless, Master, both the Holy Gifts.

The Priest, blessing both the Holy Bread and holy Chalice, says:

Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

Deacon: Amen. Amen. Amen.

The Priest says in a low voice:

So that they may be for those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, remission of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, boldness before You, not for judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer You this spiritual worship for those who have reposed in the faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

...

For the precious Gifts here presented and consecrated, let us pray to the Lord.

That our God Who loves mankind, having accepted them at His holy and celestial and mystical altar as an offering of spiritual fragrance, may in return send down upon us the divine grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, let us pray.

...

Priest (in a low voice): We entrust to You, loving Master, our whole life and hope, and we beseech, pray, and implore You: Grant us to partake of Your heavenly and awesome Mysteries from this sacred and spiritual table with a clear conscience for the remission of sins, the forgiveness of transgressions, the communion of the Holy Spirit, the inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven, and boldness before You, not unto judgment or condemnation

...

Priest (in a low voice): Hearken, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, from Your holy dwelling place and from the throne of glory of Your Kingdom, and come to sanctify us, You Who are enthroned with the Father on high and are present among us invisibly here. And with Your mighty hand, grant Communion of Your most pure Body and precious Blood to us, and through us to all the people.

Deacon: Let us be attentive!

Priest: The Holy Gifts for the holy people of God.

People: One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Then the Communion Hymn is chanted:

Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise Him in the highest. Alleluia. (3)

After the Deacon exclaims Let us be attentive, he enters through the south door into the holy Altar. Standing to the right of the Priest, he addresses him, saying:

Apportion, Master, the Holy Bread.

The Priest, dividing the Holy Bread into four pieces, says:

The Lamb of God is apportioned and distributed; apportioned, but not divided; ever eaten, yet never consumed; but sanctifying those who partake.

And the Deacon, pointing toward the holy Chalice, says:

Fill, Master, the holy Cup.

The Priest, taking the ΙΣ piece, makes the Sign of the Cross above the holy Chalice, saying:

The fullness of the Holy Spirit.

He then places the ΙΣ piece in the holy Chalice.

Deacon: Amen.

The Deacon, taking the zeon, addresses the Priest:

Bless, Master, the zeon.

The Priest, blessing the zeon, says:

Blessed is the fervor of Your saints, always, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

Deacon: Amen.

The Deacon pours from the zeon the needed amount into the holy Chalice, saying:

The fervor of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

It is customary for the Priest and Deacon to offer the following prayers of Holy Communion.

I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy, without condemnation, to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the remission of sins and for eternal life. Amen.

Behold, I approach for Divine Communion.
O Maker, burn me not as I partake,
For You are fire consuming the unworthy.
But cleanse me from every stain.


O Son of God, receive me today as a partaker of Your mystical supper. For I will not speak of the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss, as did Judas. But like the thief, I confess to You: Remember me, Lord, in Your Kingdom.

Tremble, O man, as you behold the divine Blood.
It is a burning coal that sears the unworthy.
The Body of God both deifies and nourishes me:
It deifies the Spirit and wondrously nourishes the mind.


You have smitten me with yearning, O Christ, and by Your divine eros You have changed me. But burn up with spiritual fire my sins, and grant me to be filled with delight in You, so that, leaping for joy, I may magnify, O Good One, Your two comings.

How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I should dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my vesture will condemn me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. Cleanse, O Lord, the filth of my soul, and save me, as You are the one Who loves mankind. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul, and save me.

Master Who loves mankind, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these Holy Gifts be to my judgment because I am unworthy, but rather for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body and the pledge of the life and Kingdom to come. It is good for me to cleave unto God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

O Son of God, receive me today as a partaker of Your mystical supper. For I will not speak of the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss, as did Judas. But like the thief, I confess to You: Remember me, Lord, in Your Kingdom.
 
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Erose

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Incidentally, the "man in charge" is the reason we are a conciliar Church, as we have been since the time of the book of Acts.

No man can do such a thing. This is exactly why we are not in communion with the Pope of Rome.
You are no longer in communion with the Pope of Rome for other things, primarily political, and not this. The Pope of Rome does not have the authority to change or invent his own doctrines. Even the Pope of Rome will admit this. The office of St. Peter has always been a defense for the faith, and not the other way around. Again it boggles my mind, how falsely people see the Catholic Church.
 
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Major1

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This is where you are completely wrong. The Catholic Church DOES NOT view the Mass as a re-sacrifice. This is false, and complete misrepresentation of the teaching of the Catholic Church. We believe that it is a representation of the ONE sacrifice that Jesus gave at Calvary.

One of us is wrong that is for sure. I have to say to you with all respect that I disagree with you.

Please follow the process with me and I hope it will help you understand what I am saying.
The term "Real Presence," when used by Roman Catholics, refers to Christ's physical presence in the form of the bread and the wine that have been transubstantiated into His literal body and blood.
Is that not correct??????

Now since that is the case, those who take part in this event of transubstantiation, they are in the presence of Christ himself, Catholics and others who do this then worship and adore the elements.
The Mass contains a series of rituals leading up to the Lord's Supper which also contains a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ.

Furthermore, transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are miraculously changed even though their appearance is not. In other words, the bread and wine will appear as bread and wine under close scientific examination, but the true substance is mystically the Body and Blood of Christ. Synonymous with Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Real Presence.

The denominations who practice this doctrine, whether they be RCC, or Othodox or Luthern respond by saying that Jesus had instituted the new and everlasting covenant in which the sacrificed body and blood of Christ was reality. Therefore, because it was a new covenant, it was also the sacrificed body and blood. But this cannot work because the new covenant could not yet be instituted until after the death of Christ as the Scriptures state.

Heb. 9:15-16.................
"And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it,".
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.
You are making me want to be in the Liturgy!

Though we sing "One is Holy" at a slightly earlier point, and the people say the "amens" ... we have no Deacon.
 
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Major1

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Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.

I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
 
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All4Christ

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
I'm not convinced that you understand our theology. We cannot do whatever our members choose to do. We must follow what has been upheld from the apostolic Church up through today. Nothing can and nothing does conflict with Scripture.

Holy Scripture is the center and most important part of Holy Tradition. Nothing can conflict, but we also can't just come up with our own interpretation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
Actually, you may not realize it, but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand.

I won't speak for exactly what Catholics believe. I could be wrong. But when you lay out in the post as you did above and assume we believe all of that - well, we don't.

So I am sorry, but you really do not understand what we believe.

I'm not sure why you insist that you do? Except that you wish to dismiss it. That's really a strawman you are creating though.
 
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~Anastasia~

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You are no longer in communion with the Pope of Rome for other things, primarily political, and not this. The Pope of Rome does not have the authority to change or invent his own doctrines. Even the Pope of Rome will admit this. The office of St. Peter has always been a defense for the faith, and not the other way around. Again it boggles my mind, how falsely people see the Catholic Church.
I understand the difference of opinion. Forgive me.

I'm not sure this us the place to go into it. But I know that Catholics see their teaching as all rooted in the early Church. We disagree on what we see, very much so on the Filioque, and on the supreme authority of the Pope, for example, and there are historic examples we see to support our understanding. I'm quite sure Catholics see things differently, otherwise you wouldn't be Catholic. But I forgot that we do have that difference, and stated our own view.

We CAN go into those if you want, but I'm never looking to argue, so we can also drop it. But sometimes I forget to fully put myself in another's place when I reply.

And yes, there were certainly varied reasons we are not in communion with the Pope. But I think basically "doing their own thing and claiming authority to do so" is really the basic reason? Again, from our point of view. Forgive me, I know we won't see things in quite the same way.
 
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Major1

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Actually, you may not realize it, but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand.

I won't speak for exactly what Catholics believe. I could be wrong. But when you lay out in the post as you did above and assume we believe all of that - well, we don't.

So I am sorry, but you really do not understand what we believe.

I'm not sure why you insist that you do? Except that you wish to dismiss it. That's really a strawman you are creating though.

Really?

With all due respect to you, you are the one who posted that most of your own faith's laity do not know what they believe.

You have stated that the process of Transubstantiation is a "mystery" to you.

I find it rather interesting that knowing all of that that you would say ..........
" but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand."
 
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All4Christ

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
I need to alter my previous statement. I know you don't completely understand our theology when you say what you say here. I know you think you understand it, but your description of what we believe and what we can do is inaccurate. Also, your understanding of what is Biblical is your interpretation.
Really?

With all due respect to you, you are the one who posted that most of your own faith's laity do not know what they believe.

You have stated that the process of Transubstantiation is a "mystery" to you.

I find it rather interesting that knowing all of that that you would say ..........
" but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand."
She did not say that they do not know what they believe. She said they do not concern themselves with what other people believe. There is a big difference.

Don't misrepresent what she said.
 
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All4Christ

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Really?

With all due respect to you, you are the one who posted that most of your own faith's laity do not know what they believe.

You have stated that the process of Transubstantiation is a "mystery" to you.

I find it rather interesting that knowing all of that that you would say ..........
" but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand."
Also, accepting something as being a mystery is not saying we don't know what we believe. It is accepting that we aren't told exactly how everything happens via Scripture.

Do you think the exact mechanics of the Holy Trinity is a mystery? Accepting some things as a mystery is accepting that we are human and aren't told exactly how everything works. We believe and we trust God. We have very strong beliefs but we don't try to define details that aren't necessary to define.

Don't accuse us of not knowing what our church teaches, just as we don't accuse you of not knowing what your church teaches.

We are, however, more authoritative sources on the Orthodox Church's beliefs, just as you are a more authoritative source on your church's beliefs.
 
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Erose

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One of us is wrong that is for sure. I have to say to you with all respect that I disagree with you.

Please follow the process with me and I hope it will help you understand what I am saying.
The term "Real Presence," when used by Roman Catholics, refers to Christ's physical presence in the form of the bread and the wine that have been transubstantiated into His literal body and blood.
Is that not correct??????

Now since that is the case, those who take part in this event of transubstantiation, they are in the presence of Christ himself, Catholics and others who do this then worship and adore the elements.
The Mass contains a series of rituals leading up to the Lord's Supper which also contains a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ.

Furthermore, transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are miraculously changed even though their appearance is not. In other words, the bread and wine will appear as bread and wine under close scientific examination, but the true substance is mystically the Body and Blood of Christ. Synonymous with Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Real Presence.

The denominations who practice this doctrine, whether they be RCC, or Othodox or Luthern respond by saying that Jesus had instituted the new and everlasting covenant in which the sacrificed body and blood of Christ was reality. Therefore, because it was a new covenant, it was also the sacrificed body and blood. But this cannot work because the new covenant could not yet be instituted until after the death of Christ as the Scriptures state.

Heb. 9:15-16.................
"And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it,".
Okay, much of this is correct, but you are missing a point here. The Mass, in Catholic belief and understanding, is the New Passover; and one cannot fully understand the Mass without a solid understanding of the Passover. Every Passover is a re-presentation of the original Passover, as Ex 12 points out. The language of the rituals used in the Passover, their intent, is to re-present the original Passover. To bring that which happened in the past to the present and to a certain extent to bring that which is in the present back into the past. The Mass is the same. In the Mass the Sacrifice of the Cross is re-presented upon the altar of the Church.
 
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Major1

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Also, accepting something as being a mystery is not saying we don't know what we believe. It is accepting that we aren't told exactly how everything happens via Scripture.

Do you think the exact mechanics of the Holy Trinity is a mystery? Accepting some things as a mystery is accepting that we are human and aren't told exactly how everything works. We believe and we trust God. We have very strong beliefs but we don't try to define details that aren't necessary to define.

Don't accuse us of not knowing what our church teaches, just as we don't accuse you of not knowing what your church teaches.

We are, however, more authoritative sources on the Orthodox Church's beliefs, just as you are a more authoritative source on your church's beliefs.

The actual comment from her in #366 was......................
"But no, I've never met an Orthodox layperson or clergy who concerned themselves overmuch. To be honest, most of our parish are cradle Orthodox, and they care so little that not only do they not really know the differences between us and Catholics, they don't even know the differences between us and Protestants, and most assume that Protestant is like a united denomination of sorts, as if all Protestants believed the exact same things."
 
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All4Christ

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The actual comment from her in #366 was......................
"But no, I've never met an Orthodox layperson or clergy who concerned themselves overmuch. To be honest, most of our parish are cradle Orthodox, and they care so little that not only do they not really know the differences between us and Catholics, they don't even know the differences between us and Protestants, and most assume that Protestant is like a united denomination of sorts, as if all Protestants believed the exact same things."
Exactly. They don't concern themselves overmuch with the beliefs of others outside themselves. It was in the context of knowing what Protestants or Catholics believe, not in knowing what they believe.
 
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