im no longer a christian... anyone understand?

[mlukas]

i posted this elsewhere, please read it if you will and reply if you can feel me... im trying to find hope outside of Christ, becuase i dont believe in him anymore.





im not asking anyone to help me bash christianity... i was just venting and i also dont want to be a part of trying to dismantle this wide spread belief system im no longer a part of... i will never be a part of these people who harass and try to tear down christians.

but does anyone feel me?

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

Endure2,
Where you raised in the church? I'm jsut curious, I was and I see aloto of what I thought, but didn't talk about for a long time, echoed in your original posting. I felt it was unfaithful and weak to question God for a long time, especially through Jr High, High School and college. It caused, and still does cause, some conflict in me as I hold onto not well thought out ideas of God based on my own fears.
I beleive, God DOES want us to question Him. Any deep relationship is based in part, I beleive , on questioning and disapgreements. Think about your relationship with your wife and kids, I'm sure you always don't agree.
My point, the Christian life goes far beyond demons, and angels and invisible struggles. I beleive in these things too, BUT I do think some people tend ot put WAY too much emphasis on these things. It's much more than that and, as you said, I don't think some, or most of the answers you are looking for CAN be answered by some pre-packaged "churchy" answer. Some answers take time, some questions never get andwered, others we will probably search for our entier lives. But just because you question God does not make you faithless.
If you want a book devoid of typical pat answers, read CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity". Trust me, I'm not just trying to throw a book at you hoping it will magically make allyour doubts melt away, it's just been a very good book for me personally and has helped me see beyond the "pat" answers and inaccurate views of God.
So much to fit in, my mindis spinning. However, if you want to email me to my personal account, PLEASE do so.
I doubt too, but I think, in the end, the one who questions and argues has a deeper faith and a more real faith than people who, with plastered on smiles and glazed over eyes, walk through life not bothering to look at the deeper and hard questions.
God loves you, even in the doubt and anger, even in my doubt and anger.

M
mlukas9@excite.com

 

[bethdinsmore]

Hi endure
Here's a pm I tried to send you, but your mailbox is full:

QUOTE: This is to reply to a post of yours that seemed to be addressed to non-Christians. Since I am a Christian, I thought I should reply separately, but only if you are interested.

I would like to deal with the issue of eternal security, which I believe pertains to the foundation of your post. Please pm me if you'd like me to explain.

Sorry you are having these pressures. It's no fun to feel we're out there all alone. God bless you. Aloha in Jesus

 

[Happy to be His]

Can I ask what happen to make you turn away.....(not good)???

 

[Ledifni]

I don't think that the term belief has any place in a healthy relationship with God. I "believe" in the law of universal gravitation: I read Newton's Principia as well as the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies and a teensy bit of the general theory of relaitivity. I put in my time and now I can believe in gravity without it being an empty belief, I know what it is I believe in. To say that you "believe" in God is one of two things, a missuse of the word belief, or a Herculean undertaking that isn't even fruitful. You used the term "faith", but I believe you used it almost as a kind of fuel gauge of someone's belief in God, and right now you are running on "E".

I define faith in this manner: One has faith in God in the same way that one has faith in a cause. A faithful crusader for human rights works tirelessly for equality not because they can see that equality exists, but PRECISELY because they cannot see it and desperately desire that they could.

But that feeling, that desire, is useful for the crusader because he can work to bring about human rights purely from the desire to see it happen. However, I cannot work to bring about God's existence purely from a desire to see him exist. He either exists or he does not, and no matter how hard I desire it or not I cannot change that.

That, of course, is only an analogy. Faith is a kind of desire, as far as I understand it, and desire is what drives people to live their lives in pursuit of something. No one obsessively pursued science because they already knew the answer to the questions that haunted their studies. A person can be faithful for any number of reasons. Some people become fixated on the idea of salvation, worrying themselves over judgement day and their place in heaven. Others, like myself, become fixated on the desire to find God in paradox, trying to understand silence rather than cry out for speech. And others, the admirable ones, find in their faith a great drive to help those in pain and poverty and sadness, upturning their entire lives to help people who could never repay them God bless these living angels of mercy.

If you are interested at all in reading a brilliant man's exegesis and praise of God's silence, check out Soren Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling. One of the best books ever written in theology.

You seem to be saying that faith is a force that drives us to search for certain things. It may drive us to search for salvation, or for God, or for love of God's silence, or for human rights, or for aid to the needy, or any number of other things.

But you're getting far, far ahead of me here. You're addressing what faith can drive me to do -- but reason, empathy, and pragmatism can also drive me to do commendable things. In other words, what you're saying is reasonable but it does not justify belief in God's existence.

I do understand what you're saying, I think. Faith is a vision of things hoped for (to paraphrase the Bible) that drives us to pursue those things. However, if those things are impossible then placing faith in them (and thereby pursuing them) is a meaningless waste of time. And it is certainly impossible for me to bring God into existence by faith, so if all the signs point to a complete absence of God, would I not be wasting my time to put faith in his existence?

By your definition of faith (which, I must admit, is quite different from any I've seen yet), I do have faith -- but it's faith in human values like empathy and respect and community and global cooperation. Those are things I desire but do not see, and I do strive for them whenever I can. But you and many others strongly believe that I should place faith in something (God's existence) despite the fact that he strongly appears to be nonexistant, a condition which I cannot remedy no matter how hard I believe.

So my question is, why should I put faith in God's existence? Why is that important and how can you assure me that my faith will not be misplaced? And "misplaced" is indeed the word, for I could envision things I can bring about and place my faith in those things instead.

If I place my faith in God, then I might spend my entire life hoping for and desiring God with no confirmation of his existence, and find afterwards that I wasted much valuable time and energy on something meaningless when I could have spent it on things that will make the world better for all of us. When you consider the thousands of different concepts of God that man proposes, and then add to that the very probable chance (based on his silence) that God doesn't exist, then I'm looking at a guessing game where the chances of any God existing (much less the God I guessed) are miniscule. Would I not do better to place my faith and resources in something I know I can bring about, rather than guessing at one of thousands of Gods and hoping that God both exists and happens to be the one I chose?

 

[Endure2]

ok, i really didnt expect to get that many replies.

if possible i wish everyone would stop arguing, i dont need to know the true definition of atheism or anything like that. i use to argue the point and reasons and nature of christianity more than most people i know, i dont want it anymore.

i hope i dont seem ungrateful in my lack of responding to everyone personally.

ive asked God that if he is real to somehow show me in a way he knows ill understand and believe, and it just hasnt happened. if one day, he answers that prayer then he does, but now, i dont think it will ever happen. but ive left the ball in his court if hes real, i cant do anything for him untill i know, anyway.

thanks everyone, and i do mean everyone, alot of your posts really meant alot to me especially the posts by those who do not believe in God but seemed to be speaking honestly still.
i dont want to slap any christians in the face, but i cant do this anymore, trying to get back and believe in God again and change my life accordingly seems like i have get back up and walk on a broke leg again. i truely dont want to sound rude or ungrateful, but i have to say its over for me, untill maybe he finds me one day if hes real.

for those who asked what happened to me, well nothing terrible happened, and i hope i dont become the tragedy of some "be careful dont fall from God" story, but during some hard times mentally and physically in my life while i was reaching out to him for help, in the silence and absense of anykind of help, it just suddenly dawned on me, that hes not there.
i didnt figure it out... i just realised.

as for the issue of eternal security, i dont believe the bible anymore, but when i did i was more sure that THAT wasnt true than just about anything else. i dont guess people who believe it are less of christians/ but as for myself, when i was person absolutely consumed with knowing the truth on such things, i studied it vehemently.
and whether the bible is true or not, 2 peter 2, the entire book of galations, several diffrent points from hebrews, even some things from the book of jude, prove to me the bible does not endorse the theory of eternal security, or that a lack of faith or virture is any indication that one was never saved in the first place.
though that stuff doesnt mean anything to me anymore.

but like one person said and i now agree,
this is something i need to do myself.
ive never lived my own life before.

this is my conclusion.

Lee.

 

[Im_A]

ok, i really didnt expect to get that many replies.

if possible i wish everyone would stop arguing, i dont need to know the true definition of atheism or anything like that. i use to argue the point and reasons and nature of christianity more than most people i know, i dont want it anymore.

i hope i dont seem ungrateful in my lack of responding to everyone personally.

ive asked God that if he is real to somehow show me in a way he knows ill understand and believe, and it just hasnt happened. if one day, he answers that prayer then he does, but now, i dont think it will ever happen. but ive left the ball in his court if hes real, i cant do anything for him untill i know, anyway.

thanks everyone, and i do mean everyone, alot of your posts really meant alot to me especially the posts by those who do not believe in God but seemed to be speaking honestly still.
i dont want to slap any christians in the face, but i cant do this anymore, trying to get back and believe in God again and change my life accordingly seems like i have get back up and walk on a broke leg again. i truely dont want to sound rude or ungrateful, but i have to say its over for me, untill maybe he finds me one day if hes real.

for those who asked what happened to me, well nothing terrible happened, and i hope i dont become the tragedy of some "be careful dont fall from God" story, but during some hard times mentally and physically in my life while i was reaching out to him for help, in the silence and absense of anykind of help, it just suddenly dawned on me, that hes not there.
i didnt figure it out... i just realised.

as for the issue of eternal security, i dont believe the bible anymore, but when i did i was more sure that THAT wasnt true than just about anything else. i dont guess people who believe it are less of christians/ but as for myself, when i was person absolutely consumed with knowing the truth on such things, i studied it vehemently.
and whether the bible is true or not, 2 peter 2, the entire book of galations, several diffrent points from hebrews, even some things from the book of jude, prove to me the bible does not endorse the theory of eternal security, or that a lack of faith or virture is any indication that one was never saved in the first place.
though that stuff doesnt mean anything to me anymore.

but like one person said and i now agree,
this is something i need to do myself.
ive never lived my own life before.

this is my conclusion.

Lee.

hey endure2

i just want to say that i don't worry about eternal security anymore too. but i do still believe in the Bible. we'll talk about the through pm if you want to. i dont' want to get the thread off course.

all i can say to maybe give you something to think about is, and please i'm not trying to be demeaning or anything:

how can you or anyone appropiately judge God based upon your own experiences, your own struggles, your own questions? this religion has been around for 2,000 plus years, and there is more to God than what He can do for us.

and plus, i find it odd when people go into dogmatic belief, but when they go into disbelief, there disbelief is dogmatic, because no matter what their disbelief is, they still believe that belief they let go is dogmatic, and the only way. so it's like hitting a wall with a wall. nothing is accomplished period. so if you would ever think about God again, i believe you would have lose your dogmatic beliefs and all that, and completely start over interally with critically examine everything from a non-dogmatic view. it does actually have a lot of positive effects

 

[Multi-Elis]

Yea, maybe you do need to take time to sort things out calmly. I think you just want to grow. But no matter what don't ever believe in God out of fear. That is always bad religion.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

But that feeling, that desire, is useful for the crusader because he can work to bring about human rights purely from the desire to see it happen. However, I cannot work to bring about God's existence purely from a desire to see him exist. He either exists or he does not, and no matter how hard I desire it or not I cannot change that.



You seem to be saying that faith is a force that drives us to search for certain things. It may drive us to search for salvation, or for God, or for love of God's silence, or for human rights, or for aid to the needy, or any number of other things.

But you're getting far, far ahead of me here. You're addressing what faith can drive me to do -- but reason, empathy, and pragmatism can also drive me to do commendable things. In other words, what you're saying is reasonable but it does not justify belief in God's existence.

I do understand what you're saying, I think. Faith is a vision of things hoped for (to paraphrase the Bible) that drives us to pursue those things. However, if those things are impossible then placing faith in them (and thereby pursuing them) is a meaningless waste of time. And it is certainly impossible for me to bring God into existence by faith, so if all the signs point to a complete absence of God, would I not be wasting my time to put faith in his existence?

By your definition of faith (which, I must admit, is quite different from any I've seen yet), I do have faith -- but it's faith in human values like empathy and respect and community and global cooperation. Those are things I desire but do not see, and I do strive for them whenever I can. But you and many others strongly believe that I should place faith in something (God's existence) despite the fact that he strongly appears to be nonexistant, a condition which I cannot remedy no matter how hard I believe.

So my question is, why should I put faith in God's existence? Why is that important and how can you assure me that my faith will not be misplaced? And "misplaced" is indeed the word, for I could envision things I can bring about and place my faith in those things instead.

If I place my faith in God, then I might spend my entire life hoping for and desiring God with no confirmation of his existence, and find afterwards that I wasted much valuable time and energy on something meaningless when I could have spent it on things that will make the world better for all of us. When you consider the thousands of different concepts of God that man proposes, and then add to that the very probable chance (based on his silence) that God doesn't exist, then I'm looking at a guessing game where the chances of any God existing (much less the God I guessed) are miniscule. Would I not do better to place my faith and resources in something I know I can bring about, rather than guessing at one of thousands of Gods and hoping that God both exists and happens to be the one I chose?

I think that we have almost totally explained our opinions on this matter now (I don't think that convincing is what we should be doing anyway) The only place left that I would like to clarify my point is in what it is I have faith in. It's not just some "god" out there, it is the Judeo-Christian God as I read about in the bible. The principles that I believe I am taught by the bible are numerous: critical thought and exegesis in the OT and rabbinical law, God's mystery and terribleness as well in the OT, Love and self sacrifice from Jesus, peace from Jesus the Prince of Peace, wonder and joy from the Virgin Mary. All of these things are what I have faith in, after all, where am I reading about this "God" if not these stories in the bible? An atheist may have the EXACT SAME goals and values that I do, but place faith in a different thing, say the probing light of human reason tempered with compassion. Anyhow, I admit that God may not exist, oddly enough, the existence of God and the salvation of my soul are the things that occupy my mind the least. Anywho, I gotta go.

 

[""]

For Endure2

but like one person said and i now agree,
this is something i need to do myself.
ive never lived my own life before.

I respect your right to choose, and I support you in your endeavor to search out the truth. I will continue to pray for you, not because I want to annoy you but because I care. I hope you find what you're looking for, and in that, I pray you will find abundant joy. God bless you.

Somebody else asked me the following, so please ignore it if you're not interesting. Thanks.

Are you referring to some place such as Iran or Saudi Arabia? You surely can't be referring to the US can you?
I'll wait for your answer to reply because I must be understanding this wrong. It just can't mean what it appears to.

Sorry to be late getting back to you. I hadn't checked this topic for a while

I'm not sure what you're asking of me. I've got a bit of a headache, so bear with me please. I'll try to answer what I think you're asking. If you're asking about the past, and the murdering of Christians, then no I'm not really referring to any one of those in particular(Iran/Saudi/USA). I was referring to the murdering of Christians all over the world since the time of Christ, and how some of used the letter X to define what they were, in place of the fish sign which was used during biblical times. These things, even combined, though greatly tragic, have not been as gargantuan as they will be in the coming years.

If you're asking about this present age, and Christians being murdered, then yes I am speaking of the USA, Iran, Saudi, and especially Europe. The book of Revelation says that during the tribulation (7 year reign of antichrist), Christians will be martyred for their beliefs. I believe this will occur. I also believe in the rapture, so I think it will be Christians who were left behind (because they weren't truly living for Christ) and new Christians who come to know Christ because the former introduced them to Him. I believe that the same anti-christian movements that occur now, will support the idea that Christianity is a form of terrorism, and we'll be hunted down for our beliefs.

Those who die for their belief in Christ at that time will overcome the antichrist in their servitude to the Lord Jesus.

Revelation 12:11

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."
​

I hope I answered your question. I'm not feeling very well this evening, so my mind isn't as sharply focused as my norm. If I misunderstood your question, then please let me know. I'll do my best to try again.

Btw to continue with the Xtian topic, I found this on the web. I thought you guys might find it interesting.

It is important that we not create confusion. So please listen to this definition of an Xtian.

The term Xtian may have another meaning on another site somewhere. You cannot understand what the term 'Xtian' means to us without taking into consideration the context of the Zealot X story in which we draw our definition. In the context of the story we are in a darker future. And in this future there is an exodus out of Christianity. There is a very good reason for this movement. It is not because these ex-Christians no longer believe in Jesus Christ. To the contrary, it is BECAUSE they believe in Jesus Christ that they want to follow the real and true messiah. What has changed is they no longer believe and accept the version of God, the messiah, and the gospel that is taught by Christianity and its many denominations. And because of this it is the Christians who give this name "Xtian" to this growing group of people as a derogatory attempt to undermine them and say that they are abandoning Christ. How ever untrue the 'label' stuck to the movement. There were so many people calling them Xtians that they began to identify themselves with that term. But to them, Xtian doesn't mean that they have x'ed out Christ. To them and to us it means that we do not accept a Christian Christ on their terms. It means that we accept the Jewish Messiah on 'his' terms and on the terms of the Jewish prophets whose prophecies he fulfilled.

From here

What do you think?

 

[Multi-Elis]

I don't suppose this thread is going to be checked any more, but I'll still say what I've been thinking. I started a post earlier, by the time I posted, it was no longer pertinent.

But this is what I've been thinking: my diagnosis is simple: Endure2 is looking to experience real Love. He hasn't felt it helping him in his hard times. He hasn't seen it in the dogmatic examples of christianity. He knows that only Real Love is worth living for.

I'm sure we all wish to help him and show him love, but that isn't enough. We can't give it properly over the net, and many of us have only seen glimpses of Love, and are still struggling to love (speaking mostly for myself). He needs exactly what he is looking for--to see Love for himself.

My only worry, is that in rejecting "God", he might be throwing out the baby with the bath water. Endure has done a great job in rejecting the idea of an un loving God--the origonal post refers to this unloving God who is angry at him. I'm just afraid that in mixing two conceptions of God and rejecting both, Endure's eyes will be veiled longer to see the love all around him.

But it all makes sense. Logical sense. I think the only difference between him and somebody else who might have wanted to leave christianity is just a matter of luck. So no judgement there. In fact I once almost left christianity when after months of being tired of the fakeness around me somebody was proposing me a radical opressive form of christianity that didn't seem right any way. I won't go into detail about why I didn't leave in the end, I'll just say that it wasn't because of some stuborn desire to stay that I stayed, it was because of something else.
So anyway.
So good luck to you Endure, endure and just don't let your good ability to critique turn into horrible sarcasm, it doesn't help to find the truth. It only makes the process longer.

 

[GodChiky]

hey...
I was just reading ur interpretation and ur feelings towards christianity and man I feel like your unsure about God because you haven't experienced him or had an encounter with him that is so real otherwise you wouldn't be questioning God.
But yeah its ok for christians to wonder if God is really there because I've experienced that before 2 and yeah you just have to be patient and be persistent and God will eventually come through for you.
see with God, everything happens in his perfect timing and he loves you so much but he won't show himself to you straight away because he wants you to believe by faith that he is there.
(Hebrews 13) "I will never leave leave you nor forsake you".
when you feel like God isn't there, just remember that scripture and keep praying that God will show his powerful presence to you.
God Bless you so much
From GodChiky

 

[Endure2]

Godchiky

hello
im sorry, but i cant live off of written words.
when i doubt him i doubt the book too, if hes real, then he makes the book true, the book wouldnt make him true. without him the book would only drive me insane becuase id be beating myself to fall in line to it for nothing. i cant follow the book without help from him.
ya know?
without experiencing him, i cant help but reject the book.


Multi-elis

i certainly do want real love, alot of my life is effected by an unspoken desire for it. alot of the things that happen to me and the things i think and do are symptoms of longing for it. there is this gaping whole it me that wants to feel accepted and approved of, and i continually seriously doubt that most people do accept and approve of me.

but the fact that lately my searches for God have seemed to be fruitless, im beginning to believe he just isnt really there. im not so much desiring him to love on me, but rather just wanting him to assure me and show me that is simply really there. ive kinda slipped out of the group of christians, i still attend church so my parents wont know ive changed, but i watch the church now i dont really jion them in what they do, and these new eyes i see them through, its like i see things ive never seen before, the things they seem so diffrent, and the things the pastor says seem so diffrent. they all seem foolish or shallow or incorrect.
but since this is a very sad experience for me, because christianity is all ive ever known, i genuinely feel like im betraying my oldest and most faithful friend in throwing off my faith, i feel terrible at times and im afraid to face my christian friends for what theyll say when i tell them ive changed...

but at the same time, the searching and worrying and seeking for God lately without any answer means alot to me, it means too much for me to just go back to God. this sad disheartened feeling that i get at church makes me pray again, i tell him that i dont know if hes there or not, and that i dont know how to believe in him anymore, but if hes real, please forgive me and help me see him.
i cant just confidently turn my back on christianity, its hard, becuase christianity has been my closest friend all my life, this is the saddest thing ive ever gone through.
but i just dont know how to be one anymore, i really dont believe in him anymore becuase it doesnt like anything genuine is happening.

i heard a Nine inch nails song last night, it talked about how what if your whole world is just in your head, and youve built it perfectly to be understandable and explainable but what if it isnt really true, what if your the one decieved, are you scared to know? and its funny but it had this quite soft sound to it, almost like a lullaby... and it made me so sad... becuase i really want God to be real... i really do... i hope he can come and rescue me and save me from this mess im in and take away my doubts. i really hope he finds me and saves me. but im so alone... i cant do this anymore, i cant go on living this life without his immediate help. and i cant live it the way i use to live it... taking all this little superficial thoughts and acting like they were real true divine answers from God and never really having my prayers answered but acting like they did and trying to explain it and understand it in a way that my God, my closest friend was still perfect.

he has always been my closest friend... .
but i dont know where hes gone.
im beginning to believe i just created him myself.
but truely, honestly... i dont want that to be true.
but i dont want to live the way i use to either... doing and having everything except a deeper more real walk with him.

i really dont know where all that came from,
but thats really how i feel.

i will never fall into sarcasm, i hate denial and a lack of honesty more than most things. i really strive to be honest.
i felt like the people that use to attack my devotion and religion werent truely honest, just exploiting, being rehtoric and sarcastic trying to manipulate me, so i grew to hate anything i didnt believe to be sincere and honest.

Lee.

Adiya
thankyou.


tatterdsaitn

well, there are somethings that just cant possibly seem right to me, i just cant help but think they were wrong or that there had to be a better be or must be a diffrent way. the truth that i havent experienced everything doesnt negate my ability to understand the virtue or evil in many things that i havent actually been through.
that was just a reply to your question, not my attemp bash your religion.

not be dogmatic?
well see thats a problem for me, im sort of an extremist in whatever it is i do.
i dont seem to have the luxury of being calm and worry free about many things like some people seem too.
im the kind of person that if someone says something to me that is contrary to me, if it has the slightest shred of reason or truth to it... it beats me untill ive either completely conformed to it or ive completely repudiated it.
i get very unnerved if i am not absolutely correct about things and dont know EXACTLY why.
some people can have something told to them that seems to prove they are wrong... and they just still feel confident in their feelings and dont worry about it.
i wish i could do that, i cant. i either have to conform to it, or completely know why its absolutely false. i dont know what middle ground is really.
i dont know how to not be dogmatic really, im very eccentric.

and thats the way i lived my christian life...
if the bible says im supposed to do it... I HAVE TO DOIT! and my not doing it meant i am less than i ought to be, I OUGHT TO BE MORE! not becuase he wouldnt love me, but becuase there is a real reason that i should and it kills me untill i doit. if theres reason in it... i have to doit, i cant feel good about myself if i dont.
it also affected how i see people... i naturally couldnt help but secretly demand the same from them.
a single mistake, means incompetence... becuase theres some reason behind it. and if theres reason in it... we cant just be oblivious to it.

but thats me, so i go through these times of finding new things i like to do and i try to do them perfectly and fully... and if i find i cant... them i completely abandom them.

i know this is kind of detremental... its not healthy... but i cant figure out any justice or REASON in being anything else.

ya know... i just realised im exactly like my dad... and its what i hate about him. if i make a mistake, it means im imcompetent period or the mistake wouldnt have happened... so he constantly annoys me with all the reminders he thinks i need, like "go to bed son so you get enough sleep" " you turn your alarm clock on?" " be careful on the road" ..... im 23. i dont need him to tell me any of that... but becuase I HAVE... made past mistakes... thats reason for him to act this way.

and i hate it... but im the same way.
im sure you didnt want to know all that, im sorry.
but maybe you understand me a little more now.

Lee.

 

[Multi-Elis]

Lee, thanks for replying personally.
I do relate to what you are saying. The whole attitude "it's all or nothing" was what got me dissillusioned when sitting in church. (I would go cry in the toilets when I couldn't take it any more.) It was all as you described it... no use in repeating it, I think though, that I had it to a lesser degree than you.
It's annoying, even though it seems to me I've been through what you are saying, (that was 3 years ago) I can't help you. All I can say is that in my search I reached a certain climax, talked with a person who went through the same sort of thing at the same age, and reached, 30 years later, conclusions that didn't seem right to me. At that moment I also seriously considered leaving christianity... I was just too fed up. But then a thought buzzed through my head--that it would be stuped for my best interests to leave the only person who ever really loved me, just because somebody was saying I had to be perfect to be a christian, or because christians around me were hypocrites. So I stayed a christian only for the hope of having a relationship with Christ, who didn't come to save the perfect. Since then, my christianity has been very different than what it was before. It didn't solve the problem though, I was still dissillusioned and couldn't sit through a church service without getting upset. What calmed me down was changing countries and going to a church, where it was actually the assistant pastor's honesty and amazing sermons that made me choose it. Then I was able to discover middle ground and think things through.
I realize that this little story of mine isn't going to help you. I can't account for the difference between the two of ours experience--that I had this thought come buzzing through my head--I wasn't any better or smarter or anything for it, I guess just luckier. Or maybe I'm a woman so I get more emotional about things like that. Maybe you just got it harder because you are older. Actually, I know of very spiritual people who couldn't connect with God. (I regret the way I used to force my beliefs on them--I just didn't understand them at the time)

But I'm really re-assured about what you said about skeptisism (or rather cynisism). It's actually rather good that you are skeptic enough and honest enough to sift through things and not to just accept things. I think that if you get through this, you will have grown spiritually in an amazing way. Anyway, to me, it looks like there is a lot of hope for you, even if you do leave christianity. You won't be a mediocre person, even if you do find middle ground.

 

[yourbabiiGrl]

well i mean.. i think what really moves me and really encourages me in my walk with God is like.. when i hear those real stories from my brothers and sisters in christ. the stories i hear, first-hand, you just can't fake. when i'm in church and there's an alter call.. you know, the amount of emotion and stuff [even crying from guys] is so overwhelming.. and like.. the experiences i have with god like.. they were just mind-boggling.. something greater than anything else was at work.. you know, i lost the ability to stand and i just started crying and crying because i was happy, so happy~

i really hope that one day you'll come back to God.

 

[Endure2]

multi ellis

i was shocked when i realised i was older than you, i never would have guessed. i wish i was as smart as you are. i dont even know what cynicisms are. or what it means to be cynical. hehe.

thankyou.

yourbabiigirl

thankyou for your reply, and yes, viewing those kind of things shake me up and make me wonder. it seems like lately meeting a person who really loves Jesus Christ really makes me stop and rethink all this.

thankyou.



ive sincerrely asked God that he would please show me hes real if he is, and if hes as beautiful as everyone says he is to please let me see and give me a deeper relationship with him, one that is deeper than rudiments and methods and demands.
but i honestly must say that at the moment i dont think it will happen, nothing did when i prayed. ya know?
seeing other people so excited makes me wonder, but when i cant find it for myself thats what i have to understand and believe i think.

Lee.

 

[Windmill]

Disregarding all previous posts, just throwing in my two cents!

Sometimes, I feel I don't know God like I should. Sometimes, I feel its a selfish reason that I chase after him. I feel like it now, and it most likely is. I am far from perfect, my relationship with him is NOTHING like most people on here, and true believers. Yet, I believe... thats the thing. You sound like you believe Gods exsistance. You just don't feel him enough. You think he exists but since he doesn't show you, you find it hard to believe.

I mean, I suppose that works if you think of it on a human scale, right? If we wanted to show someone something exsisted, we'd show them. God doesn't exactly flash through the sky and go "Look at me! I EXIST!" Then again, if he did, I'm sure some still would believe!!!! There are people who have supernatural experiences and they still don't believe.

Why doesn't God just jump up and show himself? I dunno. I'm still searching for that answer. But then again, isn't God superior to us? Maybe the reason he does not do it, is something we cannot comprehend? Or else, maybe its something that we would see as not important, but in reality our ignorance has blinded us to its importance?

But, he is there. Of course he is there. There is too much stuff which points to an intelligant designer to know he's there.

When were you converted? You remind me of something I saw on a video. Were you converted, told that Jesus loved you, he wants you, blah blah blah? Were you converted on the idea that he loves you? I mean, he does, but.... did you full understand that magnitude of your sins? Maybe you never believed, at all.

See, many christians are converted with the idea God loves them. Then, they hit hard times. Doubts pop into their minds, 'cos they're human. However, there is another bunch, who are converted because they see their sins and are thankful that they won't cease to exist. They then love God for giving them the oppertunity to live instead of die. The 10 commandments are, I believe, essential to finding God. Keep following them.

I'm working on it too. I have the excuse that I'm only 14 so I'm still immature. But thats fast becoming a very fragile excuse. Lets pray that we both find God don't become an atheist (or non-religious) yet!

 

[pumanator]

you're not alone in your search for understanding a the Bible is replete with folks who had some seriuous doubts. Many of us here have had the rug jerked out from under us and some of us have done well withour trials and some of us not so well. I'm a not so well, but as Peter said to Jesus; "you have the words of eternal life". Sometimes God is not properly represented to us and we have a skeewed view of what's expected of us. If you need proof of his existance there are ways to look at it scientifically and mathmatically. If you need reasurance of His love for you it's as simple as looking at the cross. Remember not to look at ppl, we'll let you down everytime. The fact that you struggling is a sign that you (possibly) know the truth in your heart but are missing something in your relationship with Jesus (or lack there of). Jesus said; "be happy, your sins are forgiven". Seek out ppl who love the Lord and can understand you and are willing to listen.

Ppl are praying 4 u

 

[anunbeliever]

its been about 2 weeks since i changed... im still kinda unsure and worried, but it doesnt look like i have any options...
does anyone understand how i feel?

I know exactly what you mean. Its been 2 years since i lost faith. I havent even told my friends or family yet - i couldn't bare the shame. I just keep on pretending and saying the right words.

Sometimes my heart aches. I am angry that Jesus isnt there. I really want Him to be true. I invested so much of myself in being a believer. I feel like i've lost a loved one. Yet there was nothing there - all those years i was deceived. Some would say that the ache i feel is the Spirit calling me back. But back to where? There was no relationship. I didnt receive guidance or affirmation from God. I didnt see him work in my life or grow me as a disciple.

I feel like i cant go back, yet there is nothing to go forward into.

i heard a Nine inch nails song last night, it talked about how what if your whole world is just in your head, and youve built it perfectly to be understandable and explainable but what if it isnt really true, what if your the one decieved, are you scared to know? and its funny but it had this quite soft sound to it, almost like a lullaby... and it made me so sad... becuase i really want God to be real... i really do... i hope he can come and rescue me and save me from this mess im in and take away my doubts. i really hope he finds me and saves me. but im so alone... i cant do this anymore, i cant go on living this life without his immediate help. and i cant live it the way i use to live it... taking all this little superficial thoughts and acting like they were real true divine answers from God and never really having my prayers answered but acting like they did and trying to explain it and understand it in a way that my God, my closest friend was still perfect.

I can so very much relate. I first heard "Everybodys Fool" by Evanescence when i lost faith. It made me burst into tears. The singer is singing about the false image she projects for the world to see. But i couldnt help to put my belief in God in that place. The lyrics are:

Perfect by nature, icons of self-indulgence
Just what we all need
More lies about a world

That never was and never will be
Have you no shame, don't you see me?
You know you've got everybody fooled.

...
But now I know she -
Never was and never will be
You don't know how you betrayed me
And somehow you've got everybody fooled.

Without the mask
Where will you hide?
Can't find yourself,
Lost in your lies

I know the truth now
I know who you are
And I don't love you anymore

Never was and never will be
You don't know how you betrayed me
And somehow you've got everybody fooled.

Never was and never will be
Not for real that you can save me
And somehow now you're everybody's fool.

 

[""]

Sometimes my heart aches. I am angry that Jesus isnt there. I really want Him to be true. I invested so much of myself in being a believer. I feel like i've lost a loved one. Yet there was nothing there - all those years i was deceived. Some would say that the ache i feel is the Spirit calling me back. But back to where? There was no relationship. I didnt receive guidance or affirmation from God. I didnt see him work in my life or grow me as a disciple.

Your post is so sad It touched me.(all of them do... all the ones who seek God but feel He's not there). I just wanted to send a hug your way.
I'd like to share some of my own life experience here. I have had some times in my life where I have been in utter despair, and felt that God couldn't possibly exist or I wouldn't have experienced such a loss. Not only that, but if He did exist, I just wanted Him to leave me alone. I've been to the point where the tears flowed so often that I couldn't remember what day it was. A week would go by and it seemed like only a few hours since I had been told that my husband was gone. Soon it was months, and I could still barely find the energy to even breathe, move, shower. I even went days without a shower, which if you know me, is quite unlike me. I'm a clean fanatic. When I could remember to shower, I'd stand in there and cry, wanting to die, and thinking nobody could ever be hurting as much as I. During this time, family were helping me with our son, because I couldn't function.

I share this with you so that you know, that I have been in the deepest darkest place, where I thought no God could possibly love me, or He wouldn't have let me lose so much. As time went by, I began to reach back out to God again, and it was at that time that I had the realization that He never left me. He was there when I laid in bed for days, wanting to die myself. He was there when I couldn't find the strength to even make a cup of tea. He sent his angels to my side, to cause me to sleep, and I did. I'd sleep for days. He sent friends to my side, to encourage me, reminding them to bring food over, to bring a movie over and watch it with me, to make dinner for my son and I. He caused my family members, all who were extremely busy in their lives, in their careers, etc., to make the time to keep my son with them until I could function again. He caused hearts to soften in prayer over me, praying that I would regain my strength and come back to the God who loved me, come back to life, and wake up to the fact that my son desperately needed me, because he had lost his daddy and didn't need to lose his mommy too.

Sometimes we are so busy looking for God in the big things, that we don't recognize Him in the little things.

I know that God loves you. I know that He see's your heartache and wants to comfort you. He has never left your side, but He won't force Himself on you. If you want to know how much you mean to your Heavenly Father, I encourage you to pray, and read God's word. Think back over your life about the times that people have reached out to you, and contemplate over the idea that perhaps God put a stirring in their hearts, and sent them your way.

God bless you. I pray for all of you who are lost and seeking, and for all who are lost and don't want to be found. I pray for those who reach up from the pit of a bottomless well, thinking they are reaching toward greater heights, but in reality are not even touching the ground. There is a rope from heaven, hanging down before you, if you look with your spiritual eyes, you'll see it there. Grab ahold of it, and come back to life.

 

[Endure2]

guys im tired of drawing this out, i hate it when i think im just wasting peoples time or just wasting my own. this just isnt for me anymore. i dont believe in God anymore.


windmill
thankyou for taking the time to post here, i read it and understand what your saying, but i just cant be that way anymore. though thankyou.

anunbeliever.

I know exactly what you mean. Its been 2 years since i lost faith. I havent even told my friends or family yet - i couldn't bare the shame. I just keep on pretending and saying the right words.

Sometimes my heart aches. I am angry that Jesus isnt there. I really want Him to be true. I invested so much of myself in being a believer. I feel like i've lost a loved one. Yet there was nothing there - all those years i was deceived. Some would say that the ache i feel is the Spirit calling me back. But back to where? There was no relationship. I didnt receive guidance or affirmation from God. I didnt see him work in my life or grow me as a disciple.

thankyou for perfectly saying exactly how i feel.

thankyou for a wonderful post.


everyone,
its done for me.
ill be in the army in about a month.
it was nice knowing you all.
best of luck with your lives.
goodbye
Lee.