Bonhoffer said:
Theres a serious misunderstanding here!! I did NOT say homosexuals have an excuse. No one has an excuse. What I meant by Satan perverting to scriptures is when Satan says to a homosexual "Look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. God must hate you because he hates gay people".
It is a fact that a lot of gay people are put off the Christian faith because they are told (by satan and even Christians) that they are not welcome in church.
I can understand that But there are people who are not welcome in churches because of their gender, because of their race, because of their outward appearance... No one is saying that this does not occur or that it is not wrong.
However, what you said was
"Satan quotes scripture and perverts its meaning in order to cause gay people to reject God and thus forsake the kingdom of heaven." With this I disgaree. If sinners reject God, it is not because someone else has put them off from the Gosple, but because they choose their own lusts over God. God promises us that those who seek after righteousness shall be filled. So even if we come across 100 false Christians, He promises that He will lead us into Truth
IF we really want it. So, while people my try to pervert Scripture and make it a stumbling block for sinners, that is
not the cause of their rejection of God.
Bonhoffer said:
But every single person who has rejected Christ will have been caused to do so by one or more of the Devils schemes. Thats Satans job, to blind people from the truth and encourage them to choose him over God.
This is just my point. In one sentence you say that satan causes them to reject Christ. Then in another you say they
choose to. People are responsible for their own choices, even when they have been enticed to choose poorly. It is still their choice and not something that can be blamed on satan or people perverting Scripture.
Bonhoffer said:
But what I am saying here is not that homosexuals are rejecting God because they are too much in love with their sinful lifestyle (although many are for this reason), but because they get the impression from the aggressive language in the Bible that they are seen as diseased and hated by God; and therefore will never be accepted by Christ. That is the lie the Devil is spreading.
And that is
exactly what I am contesting. Yes, this is one of the lies that the devil is spreading. But, people do exactly what they want to do. If someone really wanted the Lord, no one else would be able to stop them. Take a look at the following:
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour" Matthew 15:22-28
Although this is not a perversion of Scripture, the words Jesus spoke could be considered pretty hard and even discouraging. He called her and her daughter dogs. Yet, should would not be denied. She sought after Him anyway. Had she been proud, she could have easily been offended at Jesus, but she was humble. Whatever you say, whatever you call me, I need you Jesus.
This is not an excuse to mistreat people, but it is an example of how those who
truly desire the Lord will continue to seek after Him, in spite of harsh words and comments meant to deter. If someone tells you that they have not come to God because of the way people have treated them, then they are lying. They are just not ready to give up sin. If there was $10 million dollars at the end of this road, but along the way you had to endure people mistreating you and calling you names, would that make you stop going down the road? Or would you press on with your eyes on the prize ahead?
Bonhoffer said:
No one is saying that the Bible or Gods law is imperfect and needs to be changed. I don't at all think there is any way to improve God plan for man or the Bible because both are perfect.
Actually, I would say that is exactly what people are saying. Yes, in hypothesis only, and only in terms of this discussion, but that is gist of it, albeit indirectly.
Bonhoffer said:
This is a hypothetical question and should not be taken seriously. The idea behind it was meant to expose peoples struggles with the Bible, because it is not heresy to say that many people find it difficult to accept everything.
No, you are right, that is not heresy. The way that you stated it above is straightforward and to the point. The simple fact is that there are portions of God's Word that are a struggle. I don't deny that. Yet seeing post after post about what people would change in God's Word was really making me rather sick.
I apologize if it sounds like I am coming down hard on this. It is not my intent to take something that was meant to be light and turn it into something else. However, I really wonder if people are considering what they are really saying. If God were standing right in front of us, we might ask him for insight on those things we could not understand, but would we really have the gall to tell Him what we would have changed?
Bonhoffer said:
All I wanted was for people to say things like "I wish the Bible condoned getting drunk because I enjoy getting drunk" or "I wish the Bible didnt tell of how God ordered the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites, because it makes God look like a tyrant and that makes explaining how God is Love to my atheist friend very difficult!"
But why did you want people to say things like that? If you acknowlegde that God is perfect, then our problems with His Word are demonstrative of our shortcomings, not His.
Bonhoffer said:
Obviously everything that is in the Bible is there for a good reason. But people for their own selfish reasons do sometimes wish that such and such a bit wasnt in.
That is really the bottom line. It seemed to be a lot of selfishness being encouraged and that is why I responded. Not seeking understanding or insight into the things that we struggle with, but indicating what we (in our selfishness) would like to change.
So, since I have already proven myself to be a stick in the mud in this thread, I suppose it is better for me to leave it alone and let those who are enjoying it continue to do so.
Thanks.
Excellent question.
