The Righteousness of Christ - Two Sides to the Coin

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Turning away from God and to ourselves for our morality-our godhood, IOW- is the most basic anti-God thing a person can do. And that alienation from Him and His will and authority will guarantee-as it opens the door to- all the other, often much more heinous sins that follow. At the end of the day we'll be juduged on our love, which is the only thing that can auhtentically exclude sin in our lives. And that love is only possible by virtue of our nearness to Him.

Yes, He doesn't demand perfect sinlessness in this life even though that will be the ultimate result in the next. But that path, to the perfection that Jesus exhorted us to, must be the one we're on, or we're not even with Him-we're far away. The alternative is that a person could rape, torture, kill to the end of their lives and still expect to enter heaven- as long as they believe.

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn 3:4)

 

[fhansen]

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn 3:4)

And? Sin is lawlessness. And yet God is not demanding perfect sinlessness in this life. So I'll ask you, can a believer commit rape, torture, murder up to the end of his life and expect to enter heaven?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And? Sin is lawlessness.

And... your claim that some sins are not anti-God is false.

And yet God is not demanding perfect sinlessness in this life.

Here are a few verses that disprove your assertion...

1. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)
2. but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Pe 1:15–16)
3. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” (Ga 3:10)

The meritorious path to right standing with God allows for no mistakes. Thankfully, God loved us enough to lay on His Son the iniquities of us all.

So I'll ask you, can a believer commit rape, torture, murder up to the end of his life and expect to enter heaven?

God determines which sinners He will allow into heaven. But I can say with certainty that none of them will be able to say they were worthy.

 

[Jo555]

And? Sin is lawlessness. And yet God is not demanding perfect sinlessness in this life. So I'll ask you, can a believer commit rape, torture, murder up to the end of his life and expect to enter heaven?

If someone repeatedly engages in sin then they probably never truly had faith. A believer can have a weak moment and still enter heaven.

 

[Jo555]

Hi

If someone repeatedly engages in sin then they probably never truly had faith. A believer can have a weak moment and still enter heaven.

Furthermore, the determination as to whether we enter into heaven is based on Jesus finished work and grace and faith. We may not always know who has truly come to that, but God knows.

 

[fhansen]

And... your claim that some sins are not anti-God is false.

I didn't say that. I emphasized that grave sin which is obviously against love of God and neighbor is anti-God so to think that we can commit those kinds of sins and still make it to heaven is wrong-minded. Ancient teachings affirm that all sin tends towards death, so all sin, yes, is anti-God. But there are sins that are so grave that if persisted in will definitively lead to death because they constitute a complete turning away from God for all practical purposes. John also distinguishes between sin in this way.

Here are a few verses that disprove your assertion...

1. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:48)
2. but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Pe 1:15–16)
3. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” (Ga 3:10)

The meritorious path to right standing with God allows for no mistakes. Thankfully, God loved us enough to lay on His Son the iniquities of us all.

Perfection is to be the goal of every Christian; Jesus isn't trying to confuse us there. But final perfect sinlessness is still not required in this life under the new covenant, under grace and not under the law, even if it will ultimately be attained in the next life. The very early church actually believed, based on certain scriptural passages, that something like perfect sinlessness was necessary. But it came to understand that this isn't so. Even with the Holy Spirit now providing the true means to righteousness, achieving moral integrity in this life is a continuous battle that should hopefully shape and refine us into beings who are closer and closer to the image of God. And Christ did die for all, but not all are going to care enough to respond, preferring darkness instead. So not all make it to heaven despite His love.

God determines which sinners He will allow into heaven. But I can say with certainty that none of them will be able to say they were worthy.

Yes, God, alone, who knows and judges by the heart, will make that determination. But His revelation is for the very purpose of letting us know how to be saved, and so He certainly doesn't leave us without guidelines.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves
and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14:15

'A man reaps what he sows...' Gal 6, etc, etc. So, again, do you think it would be safe to assume that a believer could rape, torture, and kill to the end of his life and then enter heaven?

 

[fhansen]

Furthermore, the determination as to whether we enter into heaven is based on Jesus finished work and grace and faith. We may not always know who has truly come to that, but God knows.

Post #46 addresses this

 

[fhansen]

If someone repeatedly engages in sin then they probably never truly had faith. A believer can have a weak moment and still enter heaven

Ok? We all seem to agree that none of us will be perfectly sinless in this life, so is there a way to have an idea how much sin, or how egregious sin must be, in order to determine that a person is most likely not a true believer?

 

[Jo555]

Ok? We all seem to agree that none of us will be perfectly sinless in this life, so is there a way to have an idea how much sin, or how egregious sin must be, in order to determine that a person is most likely not a true believer?

Not of ourselves. The Holy Spirit would have to reveal that. We can discern by our intimate knowledge of scripture, but the Holy Spirit can reveal.

 

[fhansen]

Not of ourselves. The Holy Spirit would have to reveal that. We can discern by our intimate knowledge of scripture, but the Holy Spirit can reveal.

Scripture is revelation. And post #46 above gives some good examples of that revelation and how it applies to what we're discussing here. Otherwise, we may as well throw scripture out the door.

 

[Jo555]

Scripture is revelation. And post #46 above gives some good examples of that revelation and how it applies to what we're discussing here. Otherwise, we may as well throw scripture out the door.

In order to understand scripture at a deeper level, we need the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us; to enlighten our hearts and minds.

The recording of the revelation of God does not, of itself, enlighten someone. The Holy Spirit does.

2 cor 3:
12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

 

[Jo555]

I read post 46. There are plenty of warnings in the scriptures to turn away from sin or we will die, but it is also obvious that it is a standard we cannot keep on our own. As Jesus said in the sermon on the mount, at the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart ( if thou lookest with lust in thine heart), but it is also apparent to me that it is all attained through Christ as a free gift, entered in by grace through faith. That faith will result in good works, but good works does not give us eternal life in Christ. It is faith. That really was what it was about from the beginning and all other sins came from that lack of trust / faith in God and trying to attain for ourselves what God had in mind for us already, to be like Him as children embodied by his Spirit. Unfortunately, we ate of the wrong tree.

The devil is still using the same lies, that trickster, but why not if we keep falling for it

A believer does not live a lifestyle of sin. It doesn't mean that there won't be times that he will give into the flesh, but it isn't who he is. We are not those that live according to the flesh, for if we do we will die. We live by faith according to the Spirit.

All were counted unto them as righteousness when they believed God.

No one who has faith lives a lifestyle of sin. This is what John is saying. Basically, examine the fruit.

I'm getting hungry.

 

[fhansen]

In order to understand scripture at a deeper level, we need the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us; to enlighten our hearts and minds.

The recording of the revelation of God does not, of itself, enlighten someone. The Holy Spirit does.

2 cor 3:
12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

And yet we can't use that as an excuse to simply avoid or ignore Scripture. People claiming to be Spirit-led into a deeper level disgree with others making the same claim for themselves all day long.

I read post 46. There are plenty of warnings in the scriptures to turn away from sin or we will die, but it is also obvious that it is a standard we cannot keep on our own.

And this is the real heart of it. The gospel, the new covenant, faith are not about freedom from the necessity of man being righteous and living accordingly but are about the authentic means to obtaining that very thing! We're free from the law, because the law cannot accomplish righteousness in us-it only tells us what righteousness "looks like". Only by virtue of union with God can man become just IOW. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" is the heart of the gospel. That connection to the Vine is the difference between believers and Adam, who severed that connection in the beginning, but also the difference betwen the old and new covenants as the old only taught us how we "should be" while simultaneously teaching us that we're unable to fulfill it, to be it.

There was something still missing, and that something is God, Himself, with whom all things are possible. That's the purpose of faith, not to just give us some repeat-after-me mantra or profession that should somehow satisfy God but to connect us to the living God so that we might have life, true life, ourselves. That connection, itself, is what pleases Him immensely because it's the very best thing for us! It's the basis of our "rightness", our purpose, our telos, our reason for being! We must become 'His people' as we come to know Him for ourselves-then the connection is established, the branch grafted in.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

You seem to recognize what some others here do not-that we must live as children of God should, by remaining in Him. But this also involves our striving to do His will the best we can. He wants us to play our part, responding to grace, His life in us that is ever-available as we pick up our cross and follow daily. We can also freely walk away from it, from Him, and if we're sinning wantonly, gravely, we haven't remained in Him regardless of any profession of faith.

 

[fhansen]

A believer does not live a lifestyle of sin. It doesn't mean that there won't be times that he will give into the flesh, but it isn't who he is. We are not those that live according to the flesh, for if we do we will die. We live by faith according to the Spirit.

And this will all be born out and confirmed by how we live, by how we love to put it best. God's love is always there, sufficient to draw us to Himself and to keep us there. But will we love, as He does and as He's shown us, in return? Love is both a gift-and a choice-to accept, embrace and express that gift.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

 

[Jo555]

I hear you, but what some of us see as a problem is that at times it appears that you all are putting the cart before the horse. We are not to strive, we are to abide by faith.

The simple example of if you love someone with God's love you will be good to them. The love comes first and it is what drives someone to be good, good works being the cart.

 

[Jo555]

I hear you, but what some of us see as a problem is that at times it appears that you all are putting the cart before the horse. We are not to strive, we are to abide by faith.

The simple example of if you love someone with God's love you will be good to them. The love comes first and what drives someone to be good.

To me what you all see as a problem is the use of grace as an excuse, but it also seems that there is a little leaven in the bread.

I would imagine you all are looking from the other side of the coin and feel you detect error too.

Legalism and abuse of grace have been two errors from back in the day and they still exist.

Those are the two sides of the coin i see.

But I don't see where anyone is saying you can live a life of sin because of grace. Maybe i missed it because there was so much here for my simple mind to absorb.

I commend you all for your devotion and diligence.

 

[fhansen]

I hear you, but what some of us see as a problem is that at times it appears that you all are putting the cart before the horse. We are not to strive, we are to abide by faith.

The simple example of if you love someone with God's love you will be good to them. The love comes first and what drives someone to be good.

Yes, we must strive, now equipped with, empowered by, joined with, God the Holy Spirit. It's not either/or, but both/and, according to God's wisdom and by His will.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

With Him, this is possible. Apart from Him it is not. We're not saved by the sheer act of faith as if faith is all that's needed to satisfy God; faith is the begininng, of a journey now with God, if we remain on board. We're saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith as the vehicle to relationship with Him and the love that is only availble through Him. We must love. As Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

And Augustine can chime in:
"Without love faith may indeed exsist, but avails nothing."

And love acts, for the good of others, by its nature.

 

[fhansen]

But I don't see where anyone is saying you can live however you want because of grace. Maybe i missed it because there was so much here for my simple mind to absorb.

It's one logical conclusion, going by the doctrine of Sola Fide. On another thread an adherent of that doctinre finally said that yes, a person could rape, murder, kill to the end of their lives and still expect to make it into heaven as long as they believe. After all, righteousness is now imputed to/declared of them- and that's all that's required for salvation.

Others take a different tack and maintain that true believers simply won't sin...or will sin less?? But why should they do even that if they're not changed, if righteousness is only imputed to them, IOW? And even if we acknowledge that change, for the better, does somehow occur in a believer, we also acknowledge that we'll continue to sin to some extent or another. So the question comes back to, is there a quality and quantity of sin that could separate us from God, or that would indicate that we never truly turned to Him to begin with? Or is it possible to turn back away from Him after turning to Him? Or does faith turn us into some kind of automaton, unable to sin, at least egregiously now? And does it matter?

Love is the antidote to sin; it excludes sin. Must we love? Or is the gospel all about God suddenly changing His mind and saying, "No need for obedience anymore, you've got a free ride to heaven as long as you believe?" These questions are important as this matter pertains to salvation. Here's an example of the need for love being reciprocated:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

 

[Ben Leevey]

It seems that the application of this concept, the imputed righteousness of Christ, has largely been taken up in the atoning and covering sense only - to the exclusion of those works and righteousness that God cultivates in us through Christ. Indeed, the former is certainly one side of the coin, but surely the latter is as necessary for the concept to stand as a coin necessarily must have two faces. The words of the Lord always mean real business: if the purpose of God in Christ is to redeem His people from sin and death, than He means this in its proper sense - to redeem us to Himself in righteousness. Therefore, if clothing is used to portray a type of righteousness in such analogies as in "our righteousness are as filthy rags" and "He has clothed me with the garments of salvation and covered me in a robe of righteousness", than just as our filthy rags were works done by us, so also is the robe of righteousness He gives becomes works done by us. The decisive aspect that makes all the difference in this, however, is that the filthy rags were our doings and wisdom, but the robe of righteousness is the Lord's doing and wisdom in us; one is the ancient rebellion since the days of Eden, the other is the joint fellowship with the Creator God and the acknowledgment of His righteousness.

Of course, I don't mean to say that we must be sinless and perfect for us to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, rather, this is were the atoning and covering side of the coin steps in. His mercy is the foundation of His dealings with us, to the end that we may be able to grow up into the image of His Son, but this does not make the other side of the equation of none effect, since we are still in the process of growing into His image, and not another. The gospel is the means and righteousness the end.

I know many may not like how this sounds but would shrug it off as though I'm wasting mine time defining what are the elementary principles of the faith. That's fine, but all I ask than, can you say together with me that the imputed righteousness of Christ does in fact have to sides to the equation as outlined above, or not? If not, than a point of contention has in fact been raised, and I'm no longer wasting mine time.

@Dima 26 You have hit upon the doctrine of perseverance of the saints! Yes, God does, by grace, work practical righteousness in his children. Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter all speak of this. If you want I can send you some scriptures.

Also, John Piper, does a good Job with this doctrine.

 

[Aaron112]

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn 3:4)

Mind Set Alive Spirit True vs Flesh
According to Romans 8:5-8, the mindset of the flesh is characterized by:

Setting one’s mind on earthly things, leading to death (Romans 8:5)
Being hostile to God, refusing to submit to His law (Romans 8:7)
Being unable to please God (Romans 8:8)
Being controlled by the desires and passions of the body (Romans 8:6)
In contrast, those who set their minds on the flesh are:

Dead in their sins (Romans 8:6)
Unable to experience true life, either now or in the age to come (Romans 8:6-8)
Opposed to God’s plan and direction (Romans 8:7)

The mindset of the flesh is a natural tendency, rooted in humanity’s fallen nature. It seeks to satisfy its own desires and interests, often at the expense of God’s will and purposes.

This mindset can manifest in various ways, such as:

Pride and self-reliance
Selfish ambition and competition
Lust and sensual indulgence
Anger and bitterness
Rebellion against authority and God’s laws
In contrast, the mindset of the Spirit (Romans 8:6) is characterized by:

Setting one’s mind on things above, leading to life and peace (Romans 8:6)
Being controlled by the Holy Spirit, guided by God’s law and will (Romans 8:9)
Being able to please God and experience His peace and joy (Romans 8:6-8)
The mindset of the Spirit is a supernatural transformation, made possible through faith in Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It seeks to align one’s thoughts, words, and actions with God’s will and purposes, leading to a life of obedience, worship, and service to God.