The Righteousness of Christ - Two Sides to the Coin

[Ben Leevey]

Mind Set Alive Spirit True vs Flesh
According to Romans 8:5-8, the mindset of the flesh is characterized by:

Setting one’s mind on earthly things, leading to death (Romans 8:5)
Being hostile to God, refusing to submit to His law (Romans 8:7)
Being unable to please God (Romans 8:8)
Being controlled by the desires and passions of the body (Romans 8:6)
In contrast, those who set their minds on the flesh are:

Dead in their sins (Romans 8:6)
Unable to experience true life, either now or in the age to come (Romans 8:6-8)
Opposed to God’s plan and direction (Romans 8:7)

The mindset of the flesh is a natural tendency, rooted in humanity’s fallen nature. It seeks to satisfy its own desires and interests, often at the expense of God’s will and purposes.

This mindset can manifest in various ways, such as:

Pride and self-reliance
Selfish ambition and competition
Lust and sensual indulgence
Anger and bitterness
Rebellion against authority and God’s laws
In contrast, the mindset of the Spirit (Romans 8:6) is characterized by:

Setting one’s mind on things above, leading to life and peace (Romans 8:6)
Being controlled by the Holy Spirit, guided by God’s law and will (Romans 8:9)
Being able to please God and experience His peace and joy (Romans 8:6-8)
The mindset of the Spirit is a supernatural transformation, made possible through faith in Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It seeks to align one’s thoughts, words, and actions with God’s will and purposes, leading to a life of obedience, worship, and service to God.

Yes! And every regenerate soul has the Spirit, and will without a doubt have a radically different life.

 

[Jo555]

It's just too much for me to follow. I don't see it that complicated. I don't see it that complicated in scriptures either.

And i still sense a little leaven in the lump.

I stand by what i said and that's all i have to add because it is giving me a headache.

I spent a good deal of time up last night going over this site. It's just too broad with too many rooms and sometimes i end up in the wrong room and its like, where am I?

I just want to follow Jesus, grow in Him, and help those closest to my heart, while also seeing how i may help and grow with others.

I don't get out much anymore because of my caregiver status. 99 percent of time i am home. I thought online fellowship may help, but i personally am not finding it very helpful.

I think this place is just too broad for me. I'm very simple and i often feel lost in a forest here, but God bless you all. I commend you all. I'm just lost here

So I've decided to go, and just make an entry in my blog here from time to time. I'm going to pray and keep searching for an online place that feels like a better fit.

God bless you all.

Thank you so much!!!

 

[fhansen]

And i still sense a little leaven in the lump

It's not complicated. One of the worse leavens in the lump that has come to be is when people disconnnect being a believer and salvation from turning from unrighteousness, when they see faith as replacing the need for personal righteousness, from the need to 'act justly and love mercy and walk humbly with your God' (Micah 6:8). The second chapter of James' letter addresses this very problem. We need to understand that the need for this righteousness has not changed, but the true means to achieve it has been revealed: communion with God entered into via faith.

 

[fhansen]

I just want to follow Jesus, grow in Him, and help those closest to my heart, while also seeing how i may help and grow with others.

If you continue to do that you won't go wrong. Cheers and God bless.

 

[Jo555]

It's just too much for me to follow. I don't see it that complicated. I don't see it that complicated in scriptures either.

And i still sense a little leaven in the lump.

I stand by what i said and that's all i have to add because it is giving me a headache.

I spent a good deal of time up last night going over this site. It's just too broad with too many rooms and sometimes i end up in the wrong room and its like, where am I?

I just want to follow Jesus, grow in Him, and help those closest to my heart, while also seeing how i may help and grow with others.

I don't get out much anymore because of my caregiver status. 99 percent of time i am home. I thought online fellowship may help, but i personally am not finding it very helpful.

I think this place is just to broad for me. I'm very simple and i often feel lost in a forest here, but God bless you all. I commend you all. I'm just lost here

So I've decided to go, and just make an entry in my blog here from time to time. I'm going to prat and keep searching for an online place that feels like a better fit.

God bless you all.

Thank you so much

If you continue to do that you won't go wrong. Cheers and God bless.

It's just too much info from here and there. You mention personal righteousness which makes it sound like you are promoting righteousness by works of which no one can attain, for it is all as filthy rags to the Lord. Earlier chapters in Romans also cover this.

Then you end with, entered in by faith. I'm not sure which of us is more confused with what you are saying, but to me, i see leaven.

I believe a better route would be to do a study, inclusive of God's Spirit, inviting Him in, of each book all taken in context, instead of pulling here and there.

I believe Romans is a good place to start because it really does sum up this whole journey nicely.

 

[Jo555]

It's just too much for me to follow. I don't see it that complicated. I don't see it that complicated in scriptures either.

And i still sense a little leaven in the lump.

I stand by what i said and that's all i have to add because it is giving me a headache.

I spent a good deal of time up last night going over this site. It's just too broad with too many rooms and sometimes i end up in the wrong room and its like, where am I?

I just want to follow Jesus, grow in Him, and help those closest to my heart, while also seeing how i may help and grow with others.

I don't get out much anymore because of my caregiver status. 99 percent of time i am home. I thought online fellowship may help, but i personally am not finding it very helpful.

I think this place is just to broad for me. I'm very simple and i often feel lost in a forest here, but God bless you all. I commend you all. I'm just lost here

So I've decided to go, and just make an entry in my blog here from time to time. I'm going to prat and keep searching for an online place that feels like a better fit.

God bless you all.

Thank you so much

It's just too much info from here and there. You mention personal righteousness which makes it sound like you are promoting righteousness by works of which no one can attain, for it is all as filthy rags to the Lord. Earlier chapters in Romans also cover this.

Then you end with, entered in by faith. I'm not sure which of us is more confused with what you are saying, but to me, i see leaven.

I believe a better route would be to do a study, inclusive of God's Spirit, inviting Him in, of each book all taken in context, instead of pulling here and there.

I believe Romans is a good place to start because it really does sum up this whole journey nicely.

That's my opinion, but hey, you seem genuine and caring and just want to help others. Offer up what God has laid in your heart, clarity if you must, then leave it in his hands to use it to awaken hearts as He sees fit.

Thank you for caring! I see you.

 

[fhansen]

It's just too much info from here and there. You mention personal righteousness which makes it sound like you are promoting righteousness by works of which no one can attain, for it is all as filthy rags to the Lord. Earlier chapters in Romans also cover this.

Then you end with, entered in by faith. I'm not sure which of us is more confused with what you are saying, but to me, i see leaven.

God, and only God, can turn our filthy rags to clean ones. He didn't create man clothed in filthy rags and we do Him no honor by remaining in them after all His Son did. But we must be willing, we must participate, we must want it. Again, it's a partnership. This has always been the message of Christianity and it's important that we understand His purposes and will as best we can, that we know the rules of the game.

God wants to make something of us. That been His plan from the beginning: something grand, something noble, something greater than He began with. This is a patient work of His. It's much more than simply stocking heaven with some and hell with the rest, And like a good parent He doesn't want to do it all for us, but rather to have us take more and more responsibility for our right choices. because there would be no character, no virtue produced in us otherwise. We're only babes now-the journey is long. It begins with faith, our turning to Him. And that faith, itself, is a gift of grace that we must accept and express.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 14-15

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[JonasDaniels]

Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Exhortation to Unity Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. True and False Wisdom For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish -- foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Jo555]

God, and only God, can turn our filthy rags to clean ones. He didn't create man clothed in filthy rags and we do Him no honor by remaining in them after all His Son did. But we must be willing, we must participate, we must want it. Again, it's a partnership. This has always been the message of Christianity and it's important that we understand His purposes and will as best we can, that we know the rules of the game.

God wants to make something of us. That been His plan from the beginning: something grand, something noble, something greater than He began with. This is a patient work of His. It's much more than simply stocking heaven with some and hell with the rest, And like a good parent He doesn't want to do it all for us, but rather to have us take more and more responsibility for our right choices. because there would be no character, no virtue produced in us otherwise. We're only babes now-the journey is long. It begins with faith, our turning to Him. And that faith, itself, is a gift of grace that we must accept and express.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 14-15

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

I have often said where believers disagree i mainly just see a problem with understanding where each piece fits into the larger picture of Christ.

My belief is that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus and what Father God has done in Him. That is very clear to me in scripture when i take it in context of each book, and the scriptures as i know them as a whole.

Of course we don't continue sinning, and the fact that we are grieved by our sin gives witness that we are his. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ so it is not a matter of condemnation, but Godly sorrow that moves beyond ourselves into love for God and others. Condemnation brings death. His Spirit of Love brings life.

We can slip and sin, but the believer does not practice sinning. It is no longer who you are.

Faith in Jesus and what God has done in Him comes first, and good works follow.

Sure we deny the flesh. We have been empowered to live that life now because Jesus died and rose again.

If you are living a life of habitually practicing sin, you need to take it to the Lord so He can reveal to you if you are indeed in the faith. Let Him reveal it to you.

Just remember, from start to finish you do not earn eternal life in Christ by works. Works is the evidence that we have faith so if you don't have works, examine your faith with the Lord.

And, if you don't have faith, ask Him for it for you cannot get that on your own. We do know that He uses his Word there too so seek Him and his Word and wait on Him to awaken your heart and mind to Him. Sometimes He works on others before He works on us, but He has promised if we seek Him with all our hearts we will find Him.

Anyone can pull scriptures from here and there to suit their beliefs, therefore, I would advise all to pray and read scripture for yourself in context, each book from start to finish. I recommend starting with Romans as it does a great job of summing it up.

It also speaks of God choosing for his purpose and committed to us called by Him to see us through. Nothing will separate us from his love. Nothing.

And his purpose overall is to reveal Himself, his goodness, and love, and his glory, through his people, so all will be drawn and come to Him.

No one was seeking Him so He chose a people to do that through and He will finish what He started.

Even if we are unfaithful, God is not.

Read the scriptures for yourself, with prayer, asking the Lord to open your mind and heart to his Word.

We are all still learning and growing, including me, but i refuse to see God as some being just hammering me to obey Him rather than beautiful, generous, wonderful being who is crazy in love with me and inviting me into his arms of love.

I won't stay in the minor story that was a temporary measure to keep us from totally destroying ourselves until our leading Man Jesus came into the World to transport us to the higher dimension and the main story of God's love. The main story is too irresistible and what Jesus died to give me, and you. It was always where we were meant to be.

Keep asking, seeking, knocking.

Ok. Am done. Thanks for the floor. Stepping down now.

 

[fhansen]

Anyone call pull scriptures from here and there to suit their beliefs.

Yep-and/or ignore those that don't suit them-which has been done here on this thread. Or just be legimately confused as Scripture isn't always clear.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I didn't say that. I emphasized that grave sin which is obviously against love of God and neighbor is anti-God so to think that we can commit those kinds of sins and still make it to heaven is wrong-minded. Ancient teachings affirm that all sin tends towards death, so all sin, yes, is anti-God. But there are sins that are so grave that if persisted in will definitively lead to death because they constitute a complete turning away from God for all practical purposes. John also distinguishes between sin in this way.

We can be strident about sin... The wages of sin is death, meaning 1) every sin leads to eternal death and 2) no sin goes unpunished. There are none righteous, meaning 1) all people are sinners, and 2) sin-avoidance does not lead to eternal life. God sacrificed His Son for our sins, meaning 1) that those who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life, and 2) no one will get to heaven without their sins being forgiven.

Perfection is to be the goal of every Christian; Jesus isn't trying to confuse us there. But final perfect sinlessness is still not required in this life under the new covenant, under grace and not under the law, even if it will ultimately be attained in the next life. The very early church actually believed, based on certain scriptural passages, that something like perfect sinlessness was necessary. But it came to understand that this isn't so. Even with the Holy Spirit now providing the true means to righteousness, achieving moral integrity in this life is a continuous battle that should hopefully shape and refine us into beings who are closer and closer to the image of God. And Christ did die for all, but not all are going to care enough to respond, preferring darkness instead. So not all make it to heaven despite His love.

The commands to be perfect (Jesus), to be holy (Peter, Moses), and to obey all God's laws without fail (Paul, Moses) are to teach people they are not worthy of eternal life because of their misdeeds and to drive them to their knees at the feet of Jesus to obtain His mercy. This is the purpose of these laws in particular and the whole law in general.

Yes, God, alone, who knows and judges by the heart, will make that determination. But His revelation is for the very purpose of letting us know how to be saved, and so He certainly doesn't leave us without guidelines.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves
and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14:15

These verses humble me when I read them because I know that except for God's forgiveness I would be found guilty of all of them. What I don't fully understand though, is how anyone could cite them as justification for their own salvation. The only thing that comes to mind is the addage that healthy people don't need a doctor.

'A man reaps what he sows...' Gal 6, etc, etc. So, again, do you think it would be safe to assume that a believer could rape, torture, and kill to the end of his life and then enter heaven?

This is a rediculous argument. Every sin (even the smallest one) keeps us out of heaven.

You do know that legalism is an activity of the flesh, right (see Gal 3:3)? And preaching the false doctrine of legalism is an activity of the flesh (see final word in Ga 5:20). And no one who sows to the flesh by practicing legalism will avoid reaping corruption (Ga 6:8). Do you think a person who practices and preaches legalism to the end of his life can enter heaven? Same answer as I've given before... Any sin that is not forgiven will keep us out of heaven. God alone decides which sinners He forgives. But He has revealed that the answer lies with Christ being our Savior (i.e., the One who saves us).

 

[fhansen]

2) sin-avoidance does not lead to eternal life. God sacrificed His Son for our sins, meaning

We are debtors to Him because of what He's done for us. Bears repeating. over and over if necessary; no need to read betwern the lines:
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God." Rom 8:12-14

2) no one will get to heaven without their sins being forgiven.

By the same Spirit we can and must now reciprocate with the same love that's been shown to us:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

These verses humble me when I read them because I know that except for God's forgiveness I would be found guilty of all of them. What I don't fully understand though, is how anyone could cite them as justification for their own salvation. The only thing that comes to mind is the addage that healthy people don't need a doctor.

You're not reading my posts? The Doctor is how we are healed, so that we can begin to live by the Spirit now. Should we remain in the sin that Christ died to forgive and take away with a feigned humility and piety as if God created us to sin to begin with and we cannot possibly begin to overcome the sin that leads to condemnation and death even with the help of grace, the help of Him? Should we remain off of the path to perfection, like the wicked and lazy sevant who buried his talents because we think we're being prideful for doing the right thing??

This is a rediculous argument. Every sin (even the smallest one) keeps us out of heaven.

That's a ridiculous excuse for staying off the course God has made for us. We're under grace now, with a superior covenant, not under the law. We obey by the Spirit, not the Letter. And taken to its logical conclusion your position would mean we could rape, torture, and kill to the end of our days and still expect to make it into heaven...because we belieive.

You do know that legalism is an activity of the flesh, right (see Gal 3:3)?

Of course. You do know that there's a righteousness apart from the law, right? You know that freedom from the law is definitively not freedom from our obligation to be obedient, to do the right thing, right? Righteousness still exists with or without the written law.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

We are debtors to Him because of what He's done for us. Bears repeating. over and over if necessary; no need to read betwern the lines:
"So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God." Rom 8:12-14

It bears repeating that Romans 8:12 says we are not debtors to the flesh.

And not recognizing that verses 12-14 continue the contrast of Romans 8:7-11 which differentiates between the lost (who are in the flesh and cannot please God) and the saved (who are in the Spirit and are God's offspring) is to miss the point. Even worse than missing the point, you turn these verses into works by saying a saved person must work hard to not return to the flesh or live according the flesh or else he will die spiritually.

By the same Spirit we can and must now reciprocate with the same love that's been shown to us:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

We have gone over this before, but you have refused to answer my questions about it. Therefore I'm not inclined to reply to this again.

You're not reading my posts? The Doctor is how we are healed, so that we can begin to live by the Spirit now.

It's not that you never thought you needed a doctor, it's that you don't think you need a doctor now. The reality is that the same issue that plagues a lost person is present with a saved person -- the depravity of the flesh. We still need His forgiveness for that, right? Works says the lusts of my flesh are not my fault, but if I resist my lusts to a large enough degree I don't need the doctor.

Should we remain in the sin that Christ died to forgive and take away with a feigned humility and piety as if God created us to sin to begin with and we cannot possibly begin to overcome the sin that leads to condemnation and death even with the help of grace, the help of Him? Should we remain off of the path to perfection, like the wicked and lazy sevant who buried his talents because we think we're being prideful for doing the right thing??

That's a ridiculous excuse for staying off the course God has made for us. We're under grace now, with a superior covenant, not under the law. We obey by the Spirit, not the Letter. And taken to its logical conclusion your position would mean we could rape, torture, and kill to the end of our days and still expect to make it into heaven...because we belieive.

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh (Ga 5:13)

Galatians has 6 chapters promoting Christian liberty and one part of one verse of warning aginst misusing liberty. Why do you suppose that is? It is because legalism is a bigger problem for Christians than is the misuse of liberty.

You are not free of the law nor are you standing fast in Christian liberty when you promote sin avoidance as the path to eternal life.

Of course. You do know that there's a righteousness apart from the law, right? You know that freedom from the law is definitively not freedom from our obligation to be obedient, to do the right thing, right? Righteousness still exists with or without the written law.

You have traded in one set of laws for another. The law you promote here is "our obligation to be obedient, to do the right thing". You do not understand that picking up one law to obey it makes you a debtor to obey every law (Ga 5:3). That's why the choice is not simply between legalism (obedience as the path to eternal life) and liscentiousness (misuse of liberty), but it also includes the choice to stand fast in liberty (not taking on again the yoke of bondage that Christ set us free of).

 

[fhansen]

It bears repeating that Romans 8:12 says we are not debtors to the flesh.

And not recognizing that verses 12-14 continue the contrast of Romans 8:7-11 which differentiates between the lost (who are in the flesh and cannot please God) and the saved (who are in the Spirit and are God's offspring) is to miss the point. Even worse than missing the point, you turn these verses into works by saying a saved person must work hard to not return to the flesh or live according the flesh or else he will die spiritually.

Oh yes, it will continue to be a battle. Until we're perfected in love we have not completely chosen good over evil, life over death, righteousness over sin, God over the alternative. We will be tested and hopefully refined in this life. But we're now epuipped, by grace, with Him, to overcome, to win the battle. This is true teaching I'm familiar with:

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

Rom 8:7-11 simply says we must remain in Him, cooperating with His work. If we're not overcoming sin, running the good race, then we're not one of His. All of Romans speaks of the gift of righteousness by which we now overcome the flesh, the deeds of which will condemn us to death as Rom 8, Gal 5, 6 and Rev 21, 22 make clear. Again, the virtues of faith, hope, and love are gifts of grace, and daily human choices to embrace and express those gifts in which case they are confirmed and grown in us. We can also bury our "talents", or walk back away from God. Rom 8:12 says we are debtors- but not to the flesh. To Whom or to what then, do we owe, or are we obligated to as other translations put it?

We have gone over this before, but you have refused to answer my questions about it. Therefore I'm not inclined to reply to this again.

As I don't recall the question or refusing to answer it, go ahead and pose it again or point out the post if you will.

It's not that you never thought you needed a doctor, it's that you don't think you need a doctor now.

Still not reading my posts, then. The doctor is needed life-long in order to get through it and end up with with Him eternity-long. In fact, this life is only intended to be the beginning of a relationhip that we were created for and are lost, dead, sick, disordered without. Healing is never ending in this life. But, again, as Scripture makes clear, we must want it, we must cooperate with it, we must do our part, we must pick up our cross daily.

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh (Ga 5:13)

Galatians has 6 chapters promoting Christian liberty and one part of one verse of warning aginst misusing liberty. Why do you suppose that is? It is because legalism is a bigger problem for Christians than is the misuse of liberty.

You are not free of the law nor are you standing fast in Christian liberty when you promote sin avoidance as the path to eternal life.

You are gutting and violating the gospel if you think sin cannot keep you out of heaven. We are free to the extent that we are not slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness instead, Rom 6. Jesus didn't come only to forgive us our sins just so we could now remain in them; He came to free us from their captivity, to take sin away and restore justice/righteousness to His wayward creation. That's the ship we must be on board.

The law you promote here is "our obligation to be obedient, to do the right thing".

No, you've equated a central critical message of the gospel- about a righteousness apart from the law- with the law...for some reason. The notion that man is no longer compelled to be righteous, to love mercy and walk humbly with his God under the new covenant, is about as far from the gospel as one can get.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Oh yes, it will continue to be a battle. Until we're perfected in love we have not completely chosen good over evil, life over death, righteousness over sin, God over the alternative. We will be tested and hopefully refined in this life. But we're now epuipped, by grace, with Him, to overcome, to win the battle. This is true teaching I'm familiar with:

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.

Rom 8:7-11 simply says we must remain in Him, cooperating with His work. If we're not overcoming sin, running the good race, then we're not one of His. All of Romans speaks of the gift of righteousness by which we now overcome the flesh, the deeds of which will condemn us to death as Rom 8, Gal 5, 6 and Rev 21, 22 make clear. Again, the virtues of faith, hope, and love are gifts of grace, and daily human choices to embrace and express those gifts in which case they are confirmed and grown in us. We can also bury our "talents", or walk back away from God. Rom 8:12 says we are debtors- but not to the flesh. To Whom or to what then, do we owe, or are we obligated to as other translations put it?

As I don't recall the question or refusing to answer it, go ahead and pose it again or point out the post if you will.

Still not reading my posts, then. The doctor is needed life-long in order to get through it and end up with with Him eternity-long. In fact, this life is only intended to be the beginning of a relationhip that we were created for and are lost, dead, sick, disordered without. Healing is never ending in this life. But, again, as Scripture makes clear, we must want it, we must cooperate with it, we must do our part, we must pick up our cross daily.

You are gutting and violating the gospel if you think sin cannot keep you out of heaven. We are free to the extent that we are not slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness instead, Rom 6. Jesus didn't come only to forgive us our sins just so we could now remain in them; He came to free us from their captivity, to take sin away and restore justice/righteousness to His wayward creation. That's the ship we must be on board.

No, you've equated a central critical message of the gospel- about a righteousness apart from the law- with the law...for some reason. The notion that man is no longer compelled to be righteous, to love mercy and walk humbly with his God under the new covenant, is about as far from the gospel as one can get.

What does the following verse mean to you?

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." (Ro 4:4)​

It is first a practical statement concerning the worker-employer relationship. When one person hires another person to do some work for him there is usually an agreement up front on the scope of work to be done and the payment for the work. A Biblical example of this is found in the Parable of the Laborers...

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. (Mt 20:1–2)​

The practical statement of Romans 4:4 is that when a person works for wages, the wages he earns are not considered a gift from the person who hired him. On the conrary, if the worker completes the work that is assigned to him, the employer owes the payment to him, and the wages are considered to be a debt that he owes and must pay.

But Romans 4:4 is not simply a practical statement about the worker-employer relationship. Paul first made the practical statement then used it as an analogy to make a theological statement about our relationship with God.

If, as you say, God has forgiven all our past sins and has now given us everything we need to carry out His will, and it is up to us to faithfully carry out His will in order to gain the reward, which in this case is eternal life, then we would be in a worker-employer relationship. If we were to be faithful to carry out His will, then at the end of our lives, He would be obligated to give us eternal life because it would be a debt He owes us because we had executed our part of the arrangement. But it is not as you say.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 6:23)​

The truth is that in the worker-employer relationship with God, all people fail to live up to their obligations. The command is to do everything God expects of us or else we will be punished. And every one of us deserves the wages that our sins earn us. And beyond that, God is obligated to pay us those wages we earned, i.e., eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord.

But then there is Christ. God loved us enough to send His Son to bear our sins so that we would not perish, but have everlasting life (Jn 3:16). His gift of eternal life is neither earned nor deserved. It is a free gift, given to us by God out of His goodnedd, kindness, and love.

To turn His gift into something that we must prove ourselves worthy of or lose it is a rerurn to the worker-employer relationship that has no possibility of success.

 

[fhansen]

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." (Ro 4:4)

It means that only God can do in me, as I turn to Him in faith, becoming His child, what I cannot do in myself, based on the law or by any other standard I might have. It means that I cannot attain righteousness or holiness by merely acting or pretending to be holy or by removing a little peice of flesh from the body; God, alone, can accomplish that, can make righteous the unrighteous, can justify the ungodly.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It means that only God can do in me, as I turn to Him in faith, becoming His child, what I cannot do in myself, based on the law or by any other standard I might have. It means that I cannot attain righteousness or holiness by merely acting or pretending to be holy or by removing a little peice of flesh from the body; God, alone, can accomplish that, can make righteous the unrighteous, can justify the ungodly.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

You did not address the verse at all. Why is that?

 

[fhansen]

You did not address the verse at all. Why is that?

Sure I did. There's nothing we can do to earn the justice, the righteousness given; it's free and comes only from God, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9), as we become his people, IOW (Jer 31:33). And that's consistent with that verse, the passage that it's in and all of Romans. Justification consists both of forgiveness of sin and righteousness given. We are new creations, made just.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sure I did. There's nothing we can do to earn the justice, the righteousness given; it's free and comes only from God, through and on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9), as we become his people, IOW (Jer 31:33). And that's consistent with that verse, the passage that it's in and all of Romans. Justification consists both of forgiveness of sin and righteousness given. We are new creations, made just.

I asked about this verse...

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Ro 4:4)​

It's not talking about undeserved gifts that are freely given. It's talking about wages that are earned. And it says that when a person works for his wages, the wages are NOT considered a gift, but a debt that is owed him.

Your theology starts off with people receiving the free gift of new life in Christ but then it adds good works as a requirement to obtain the reward of eternal life at the end of one's physical life. So, your theology does not actually consider eternal life to be a free gift. It considers eternal life to be something that is earned (by being a faithful steward of all the benefits bestowed on a person by God). Romans 4:4 simply says if you are working for eternal life, you can't also consider eternal life to be a gift.

 

[fhansen]

I asked about this verse...

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. (Ro 4:4)​

It's not talking about undeserved gifts that are freely given. It's talking about wages that are earned. And it says that when a person works for his wages, the wages are NOT considered a gift, but a debt that is owed him.

Your theology starts off with people receiving the free gift of new life in Christ but then it adds good works as a requirement to obtain the reward of eternal life at the end of one's physical life. So, your theology does not actually consider eternal life to be a free gift. It considers eternal life to be something that is earned (by being a faithful steward of all the benefits bestowed on a person by God). Romans 4:4 simply says if you are working for eternal life, you can't also consider eternal life to be a gift.

It's all about becoming one of God's people, which is how one becomes justified. Being His child is our righteousness and remaining in Him and doing His will are inseparable. If we are not doing His will then we are not one of His-or we must question the validity of that realtionship very seriously. If we say we're one of His but we walk in darkness then we're lying to ourselves. The basis of justifaction is faith because faith means realtionship with the One who justifes, who makes us just and that justification, that righteousness, is essential for salvation.

This is why Jesus so often ties it-and our salvation- to what we do, such as with the sheep in Matt 25. John in his letters and James in his letter want to ensure that we know this-that we don't think we can separate faith from the living of an authenticly righteous life. Salvation is the free gift of faith because righteousness is the free gift-the result- of turning to God in faith and that's why we need to use our fruit as a gauge to the truthfulness of any profession of faith. We aren't saved by the mere act of believing-as if answering an alter call might make us permanently saved, for example-but by what that faith means, how that faith changes and distinguishes us. When it's the real thing, we will do God's will, which is what Abraham did.

It's a matter of picking up our cross and following daily. then He judges us at the end on how we did, with the free gift given. If I haven't mentioned it before, the Parable of the Talents shed much light on this. God loves and died to save us despite our sinfulness not so that we can remain comfortable in our sinfulness-but so that we might become one of His, an overcomer of that sinfulness.