if you observe Sabbath, Christ will profit you nothing.

[Sophrosyne]

I think the issue is those already keeping the Sabbath prior to salvation continually keeping it on the level as a custom doesn't change things, but those who are saved then think they must keep the Sabbath or those who are trying to convince others the need to keep the Sabbath must come up with a reason to do so and the ultimate reason ends up with losing salvation of those who refuse to keep it (some equate it with being thrown into the lake of fire). Essentially a negative profit (loss) is equated with keeping the Sabbath but the truth is the Sabbath has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire at all and those using it as a way to escape it are rejecting the reason they are already able to escape it by not showing faith to begin with.
If one contends that keeping or not keeping the Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation then those who contend you must keep it have to come up with an alternative reason to trumpet the "you must keep" mantra and in the end they have to equate it with a loss of something if you do not do so. Paul sort of trivializes Sabbath keeping such that he equates Christians not to bother demanding it of anyone making those who keep or not keep it equal in status such that it seems to Paul that there is NO profit in keeping it after one is saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think the issue is those already keeping the Sabbath prior to salvation continually keeping it on the level as a custom doesn't change things, but those who are saved then think they must keep the Sabbath or those who are trying to convince others the need to keep the Sabbath must come up with a reason to do so and the ultimate reason ends up with losing salvation of those who refuse to keep it (some equate it with being thrown into the lake of fire). Essentially a negative profit (loss) is equated with keeping the Sabbath but the truth is the Sabbath has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire at all and those using it as a way to escape it are rejecting the reason they are already able to escape it by not showing faith to begin with.

If one contends that keeping or not keeping the Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation then those who contend you must keep it have to come up with an alternative reason to trumpet the "you must keep" mantra and in the end they have to equate it with a loss of something if you do not do so. Paul sort of trivializes Sabbath keeping such that he equates Christians not to bother demanding it of anyone making those who keep or not keep it equal in status such that it seems to Paul that there is NO profit in keeping it after one is saved.

Yep, that's pretty much what folk do - demand that others keep the 7th day as Sabbath and tell them they are in deliberate and continual sin if they don't. The obvious implication is, of course, that those who do not submit to the demand to keep the 7th day as Sabbath are much the same as thieves, murderers, adulterers, idolaters, etc and since they refuse 7th day Sabbath observance week after week they are very likely doomed to perdition. Such is the message of Seventh Day keepers.

 

[Yab Yum]

paul was being faceous in 2;13, in a diatribe against the jews, he is about to say no one is right by law, in 3;20, and elswhere.

The main reason, of course, for embarrassment on this topic is that here Paul, in the first mention of "justification" in the letter, states openly and cheerfully that it is "the doers of the law who will be justified" (Romans 2:13). It is, by the way, clear throughout chapters 2 and 3 that the lawcourt is one of the primary "home base" points of what Paul is saying. Here, quite obviously, he has in mind a lawcourt in which God is the judge and humans are appearing before him to have their cases tried. Some, declares Paul, will hear the verdict "dikaios," "in the right." These will not be the people who only hear the Torah but do not perform it; they will be those who "do the law." This is in line with the straightforward statement in 2:6, quoting Psalm 62:12, that God will "repay according to each one's deeds."

But, though the idea of a final judgment is common to most Christian theologians, the idea that Paul would insist on such a judgment at which the criterion will be, in some sense, "works," "deeds" or even "works of the law," has naturally been anathema to those who have been taught that his sole word about judgment and justification is that, since justification is by faith, there simply cannot be a final "judgment according to works." I am frequently challenged on this point in public, after lectures and seminars, and my normal reply is that I did not write Romans 2; Paul did. Nor did I write Romans 14:10-12:

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.' For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Nor did I write 2 Corinthians 5:10 ... : we must all appear before the Messiah's judgment seat, so that we may each receive the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

We might add other passages as well. Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of people who follow "the works of the flesh" being excluded from "the kingdom of God," in a similar way to 1 Corinthians 6:9. Also in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 we find a final judgment scene, where it appears that Christian workers will be judged on the quality of their work, with some finding that they suffer loss at one level though themselves still being saved, "but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15). In the next chapter Paul speaks of the coming judgment that he too must face. This, he says, will be the real thing, in contrast to any judgments that human courts (including the "court" of the Corinthian church!) might pass on him (1 Corinthians 4:4). He speaks there (1 Corinthians 4:5) of that coming judgment in language reminiscent both of Romans 2:15-16 (the secrets of the hearts being disclosed) and also 2:28-29 (people who receive praise from God). He speaks of the coming "day of the Lord," at which there will of course be a judgment, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, and quite frequently elsewhere.10 Back in Galatians, we find the two final destinations spelled out: some sow to the flesh and reap corruption, others to the spirit and reap eternal life (Galatians 6:8). And Ephesians 6:8 speaks of a time when each will receive a reward for good work performed, whether slave or free. Finally, back in Romans, in the center of the very chapter where Paul has declared that "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," he also writes, "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:1, 13).

There is simply far too much of this material for it all to be swept aside. ... It is base line stuff. Unless we offer a reading of Paul within which all this makes sense, not just as a grudging theological concession on the side but fitted properly into the overall structure, we have not done our job as exegetes, still less as theologians."


N. T. Wright. Justification: God's Plan and Paul's Vision (Kindle Locations 2176-2194). Kindle Edition.

Ribbit.

 

[Frogster]

Yes I agree it was something attainable, not something future.

thanks friend.

 

[Frogster]

The main reason, of course, for embarrassment on this topic is that here Paul, in the first mention of "justification" in the letter, states openly and cheerfully that it is "the doers of the law who will be justified" (Romans 2:13). It is, by the way, clear throughout chapters 2 and 3 that the lawcourt is one of the primary "home base" points of what Paul is saying. Here, quite obviously, he has in mind a lawcourt in which God is the judge and humans are appearing before him to have their cases tried. Some, declares Paul, will hear the verdict "dikaios," "in the right." These will not be the people who only hear the Torah but do not perform it; they will be those who "do the law." This is in line with the straightforward statement in 2:6, quoting Psalm 62:12, that God will "repay according to each one's deeds."

But, though the idea of a final judgment is common to most Christian theologians, the idea that Paul would insist on such a judgment at which the criterion will be, in some sense, "works," "deeds" or even "works of the law," has naturally been anathema to those who have been taught that his sole word about judgment and justification is that, since justification is by faith, there simply cannot be a final "judgment according to works." I am frequently challenged on this point in public, after lectures and seminars, and my normal reply is that I did not write Romans 2; Paul did. Nor did I write Romans 14:10-12:

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.' For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Nor did I write 2 Corinthians 5:10 ... : we must all appear before the Messiah's judgment seat, so that we may each receive the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

We might add other passages as well. Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of people who follow "the works of the flesh" being excluded from "the kingdom of God," in a similar way to 1 Corinthians 6:9. Also in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 we find a final judgment scene, where it appears that Christian workers will be judged on the quality of their work, with some finding that they suffer loss at one level though themselves still being saved, "but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15). In the next chapter Paul speaks of the coming judgment that he too must face. This, he says, will be the real thing, in contrast to any judgments that human courts (including the "court" of the Corinthian church!) might pass on him (1 Corinthians 4:4). He speaks there (1 Corinthians 4:5) of that coming judgment in language reminiscent both of Romans 2:15-16 (the secrets of the hearts being disclosed) and also 2:28-29 (people who receive praise from God). He speaks of the coming "day of the Lord," at which there will of course be a judgment, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, and quite frequently elsewhere.10 Back in Galatians, we find the two final destinations spelled out: some sow to the flesh and reap corruption, others to the spirit and reap eternal life (Galatians 6:8). And Ephesians 6:8 speaks of a time when each will receive a reward for good work performed, whether slave or free. Finally, back in Romans, in the center of the very chapter where Paul has declared that "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," he also writes, "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:1, 13).

There is simply far too much of this material for it all to be swept aside. ... It is base line stuff. Unless we offer a reading of Paul within which all this makes sense, not just as a grudging theological concession on the side but fitted properly into the overall structure, we have not done our job as exegetes, still less as theologians."


N. T. Wright. Justification: God's Plan and Paul's Vision (Kindle Locations 2176-2194). Kindle Edition.

Ribbit.

i am bored with the NPP stuff, even Dunn a NPP scholar, said Paul was talking about the jewish calendar in Gal 4:10, when those guys get their act together, and can stand against scholars against them, the frog will listen, rib-it.

tell ya though, lets go thought by thought, no books, u raise an NPP perspective on anything in galatians, and the frog will meetcha head on, deal?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

i am bored with the NPP stuff, even Dunn a NPP scholar, said Paul was talking about the jewish calendar in Gal 4:10, when those guys get their act together, and can stand against scholars against them, the frog will listen, rib-it.

tell ya though, lets go thought by thought, no book style posts, no long endless posts, u raise an NPP perspective on anything in galatians, and the frog will meetcha head on, deal?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is NPP?


.

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27)

Yeshua said the Sabbath was to be enjoyed for man's own pleasure. I observe it as a rest day, not because it's some burdensome law.

 

[bugkiller]

Yep, that's pretty much what folk do - demand that others keep the 7th day as Sabbath and tell them they are in deliberate and continual sin if they don't. The obvious implication is, of course, that those who do not submit to the demand to keep the 7th day as Sabbath are much the same as thieves, murderers, adulterers, idolaters, etc and since they refuse 7th day Sabbath observance week after week they are very likely doomed to perdition. Such is the message of Seventh Day keepers.

It seems to me those who demand the keeping of the sabbath and do not themselves are self condemning in the same vein (deliberate and continual).

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is NPP?


.

the new perspctive on Paul.

they try to assert that Paull was not fighting law justification, but covenantal nomism, the jewish "badge", though somewhat true, they take that secondary argument from Paul, and try to turn it into a primary argument from paul, and act like he was not fighting law justification, just jewish pride, totally igonring the jusification issue in gal and rom 4 ,trying to omit the the primary.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, but both circumcision, and uncircumcision profits nothing, but a new creature in Christ. (spiritual circumcision)

So the same could be said about saturday worship, and or, sunday worship profits nothing but a new creature in Christ. (worship in Spirit)

Also I believe there is a difference between to observe something, and or, to try to be justified by something.

To observe something could be to take note of; or watch. (but not justified by)

So it depends on the choice of words.

If done to receive, it is justification. To require sabbath observence for or to maintain salvation is works which bring death. It would no longer be a gift but a reward. Therefore it voids salvation. Salvation is only a gift - Rom 6:23, Eph 2:8-9.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the new perspctive on Paul.

they try to assert that Paull was not fighting law justification, but covenantal nomism, the jewish "badge", though smewhat true, they take that secondary argument from Paul, and try to turn it into a primary argument from paul, and act like he was not fighting law justification, just jewish pride, totally igonring the jusification issue in gal and rom 4 ,trying to omit the the primary.

Ahhh...I thought the newest perspective on Paul was that he was a false Apostle/Prophet [as I have seen some Christian implying lately].

http://www.christianforums.com/t7473170/#post62149657
Was Paul a false prophet?

This topic has come up in a number of threads lately. Some think that Paul was a false prophet. I am not one of them. But I figured we could discuss the issue.

I will leave the definition of false prophet broad for now. In general I am asking for those to give input who think Paul's writings in the New Testament were not really inspired or should not be used for teaching doctrine, etc.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7599812-54/#post58758390

False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17

I've been reading Questioning Paul for some time now, and I agree with the author's conclusions thus far. I understand many Christians quote 2 Peter 3:15-17 in support of Paul; I'll quote the author's expanded translation of these verses to you for consideration:

Contrary to how most Christians use these verses (based on faulty or muddled translations hiding the truth), he is stating that in actuality:

Peter is warning Christians about the consequence of Pauline Doctrine—calling it deadly and destructive.

May Messiah commend us as He commended the assembly at Ephesus:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars (Rev 2:2)

Messiah's letters in Revelation 2-3 was for His seven churches of Asia which were true to Him. Remarkably, it is also interesting to note that Ephesus is in the ancient Roman province of Asia, of which Paul wrote, in his own words:

thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me (2Tim 1:15)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

(Galatians 5:1-4)

The above scripture carries a message that is true; everybody who seeks to be justified by obeying the law has fallen from grace. This applies just as much to the one who seeks to gain God's favour by observing the 7th day as Sabbath in the belief that by so doing he/she shows themselves to be loyal followers of God and among those who "keep the commandments". One cannot be justified by works of the law.

Saint Paul mentions circumcision in the passage quoted in the OP, in that passage he says "if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.". It is evident that merely being circumcised is not the issue at stake in the passage but rather becoming circumcised in order to comply with the law is the issue. Similarly, resting on Saturday is not the issue in this thread but rather observing Sabbath in order to comply with the law is the issue.

In your OP quoted first above, you posted the verses from Galatians 4 where it is pretty obvious that the issue is NOT COMPLIANCE with the Law (bolded and underlined in your second post) as you say in the second post above. It is JUSTIFICATION by the Law (bolded and underlined in your first post above) that is under consideration.

Moving the goal posts is not fair.

 

[mmksparbud]

I think you were confused because the Original post does not "judge" anybody. The OP observes that what saint Paul says regarding circumcision applies equally well to the 7th day Sabbath; one could paraphrase it thus

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you observe the seventh day Sabbath, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who observes the seventh day Sabbath that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

Here he goes again--Coffee loves this---So, ok, I'll come out and play,too.

Just carry on with the paraphrase---why stop with the 7th day sabbath?---just keep going---

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you---honor your father and mother, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not commit adultry, do not bow down and pray to graven images making gods of them (you're ok there)if you observe the first day of the week, partake of the mass, eucharist,if you have endless repetitive prayers (such as Hail, Mary's)-go to a priest for confessions (instead of directly to Christ, it is He who forgives), if you do not hate, if you love your enemies,if you demand obedience to a man who is called the holy father (in place of the Heavenly Father), and so on and so on---Christ will profit you nothing....you who attempt to be justified by the law (of the church); you have fallen from grace.

OOps, I guess I should have made that in red, it makes it more official looking that way.

Hi Coffee!! I guess it's time again for everybody to get out the ussual scriptures--oh, goodie, my fingers need a little workout!--Course, we all could just dig up the old posts and run them all over again--save everyone some time.

 

[bugkiller]

In your OP quoted first above, you posted the verses from Galatians 4 where it is pretty obvious that the issue is NOT COMPLIANCE with the Law (bolded and underlined in your second post) as you say in the second post above. It is JUSTIFICATION by the Law (bolded and underlined in your first post above) that is under consideration.

Moving the goal posts is not fair.

I do not think the goal posts were moved.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here he goes again--Coffee loves this---So, ok, I'll come out and play,too.

Just carry on with the paraphrase---why stop with the 7th day sabbath?---just keep going---

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage, Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you---honor your father and mother, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not commit adultry, do not bow down and pray to graven images making gods of them (you're ok there)if you observe the first day of the week, partake of the mass, eucharist,if you have endless repetitive prayers (such as Hail, Mary's)-go to a priest for confessions (instead of directly to Christ, it is He who forgives), if you do not hate, if you love your enemies,if you demand obedience to a man who is called the holy father (in place of the Heavenly Father), and so on and so on---Christ will profit you nothing....you who attempt to be justified by the law (of the church); you have fallen from grace.

OOps, I guess I should have made that in red, it makes it more official looking that way.

Hi Coffee!! I guess it's time again for everybody to get out the ussual scriptures--oh, goodie, my fingers need a little workout!--Course, we all could just dig up the old posts and run them all over again--save everyone some time.

I am sorry but I did not read MoreCoffee bringing religion into the picture.

I really do not understand the attack.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do not think the goal posts were moved.

bugkiller

I am sorry but I did not read MoreCoffee bringing religion into the picture.

I really do not understand the attack.

bugkiller

Me neither.
Unless perhaps him being a RC


.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am sorry but I did not read MoreCoffee bringing religion into the picture.

I really do not understand the attack.

bugkiller[/quot



--that was a joke, right?---who attacked?---Just expanded on Coffees paraphrase.

 

[Steve Petersen]

One can comply with the Law WITHOUT relying on it for JUSTIFICATION. Relying on it for JUSTIFICATION is bound to fail because all it takes is one transgression to condemn the person relying on it for JUSTIFICATION. This is the whole point of Paul's writing in Galatians.

 

[Standing Up]

One can comply with the Law WITHOUT relying on it for JUSTIFICATION. Relying on it for JUSTIFICATION is bound to fail because all it takes is one transgression to condemn the person relying on it for JUSTIFICATION. This is the whole point of Paul's writing in Galatians.

What's the point of "complying" then?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One can comply with the Law WITHOUT relying on it for JUSTIFICATION.

Let's face facts.
The MJs and SDAs keep the Jewish Fri night-Sat night Sabbath.
While mainstream Christianity observes Sunday.
In the whole scheme of things, why the heck does it matter which day of the week one wishes to "rest"

Which brings to mind this thread concerning a 1 million dollar giveaway, which I lost out on

http://www.christianforums.com/t1248170-7/
Sunday vs Saturday, Sabbath?

TESTING THE FAITH

[SIZE=+2]Sunday, holy Sunday?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24908
[SIZE=+1]Pastor resurrects Sabbath debate
[SIZE=+1]with $1 million reward[/SIZE]

By Joe Kovacs
[SIZE=-1]WorldNetDaily.com [/SIZE]

One of the longest running disputes in the history of Christianity – Saturday vs. Sunday – is having new life breathed into it with a cash reward of up to $1 million toward a resolution.[/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

Calling all Sunday keepers, now is the time to come forward and collect your rewards.

With one million dollars at stake, produce the missing text and this man says he will pay you $1,000,000.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1248170/#post13982256

I am yet to see anyone claim the $1,000,000

Originally Posted by prodromos Hey! What about my offer of $1,000,000,000? It is just as valid as Marcussen's offer