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If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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Travis93

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Jesus is God! God can do whatever He wants to do. We mere humans cannot add to the OT commandments of God, but then why would we want to do this?

Jesus Christ who is God ended the OC Law of Moses. We are now under His NC law of grace.

Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John; rsv

Luke 16:16
“The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. rsv

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified. rsv

Romans 6:14-16
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? rsv
Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deuteronomy 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Signs and wonders are not legitimate proof someone is speaking the word of God, they must be preaching the law of Moses or they are still false. I take Jesus to be a preacher of the law of Moses myself (Matthew 5:17-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 23:2-3), so I accept him, but I reject the version of Jesus who does away with the law most people accept.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Moses: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=moses&begin=47&end=73

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

2 Corinthians 3:15
But even unto this day
, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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Travis93

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Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Good verse, I wonder if most Christians even know the song of Moses, let alone have written themselves a copy, as commanded in Deuteronomy 31:19.
 
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Bob S

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This truth about what Jesus said about Sunday worship was written down by the early church fathers. It is pretty simple: I believe them and you do not.
Oh, please show me or direct me to the statements Jan. If you know something the rest of us don't please share.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Oh, please show me or direct me to the statements Jan. If you know something the rest of us don't please share.
Question: did you miss that they said that unfaithful teachers said that ?
i.e. NOT Scripture ....
 
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bugkiller

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Are you back at the 1050 commands in the NT again?
What exactly does that question have to do with the Book of the Law?
or is it your claim (as in the case of at least one other on this board) that Christians should ignore the teaching of Christ if they are not Jews?
NO!
Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Are these teaching the law or are they answering a question of a fool trying to trap Jesus?
Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
or women.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
So how does this apply to the Sabbath? Oh I know Sunday is only a tradition of men. But where is the command in the nT to keep or observe any day? Besides that Christians who worship on Sunday aren't keeping a day, they're worshipping Jesus when their religious organization meets for worship.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Which is exactly what you dos ince you're noti n compliance with Ex 20:8-11.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
That's exactly what you do.

bugkiller
 
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Jan001

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Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deuteronomy 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Signs and wonders are not legitimate proof someone is speaking the word of God, they must be preaching the law of Moses or they are still false. I take Jesus to be a preacher of the law of Moses myself (Matthew 5:17-19, Luke 16:17, Matthew 23:2-3), so I accept him, but I reject the version of Jesus who does away with the law most people accept.

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?
 
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Jan001

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Oh, please show me or direct me to the statements Jan. If you know something the rest of us don't please share.

Here are a few of them.

The Didache

1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)

Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)
 
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Bob S

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Here are a few of them.

The Didache

1. But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)

Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)
Thank you Jan for doing the research. You have provided some very interesting data. You highlighted the following:
He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

"He" meaning Jesus, "them" meaning the Apostles. The Apostles were dead by AD155 and in all their writings found in scripture they didn't leave a trace of evidence Jesus taught that Sunday was/is Holy, sacred, the new day of rest or anything else to indicate we are to "keep" Sunday. Sorry, but I am not convinced from what you have provided that Jesus, in any way, made a new sacred day. If that were true then certainly the New Testament would reveal such an event. Sacredness is not to be taken lightly and if such would be true then the Apostles were negligent in providing that information in scripture.

Oral information changes with each orator.:)
 
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BobRyan

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You should read and understand the Book of the Law.

bugkiller

Are you back at the 1050 commands in the NT again?

or is it your claim (as in the case of at least one other on this board) that Christians should ignore the teaching of Christ if they are not Jews?

Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’



Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


The context of Mark 7 is that some Pharisees were refusing to financially support their parents which is a violation of God's commandment to honor father and mother.

Agreed. And Christ makes the case in Mark 7 that "Moses said" and "The Word of God" and "the Commandment of God" are the same thing - all of them applying to this example in the case of the TEN Commandments.

What is more Christ said they were doing "MANY such things as that" -- so then not just an issue with this ONE Commandment.

By contrast - these guys are the church "magisterium" and they are getting hammered - "sola scriptura" by Christ.

A man-made tradition is not a good tradition if it violates the command of God

No doubt. And the way we know if it is in violation of the Commandments of God - is that we read them.

But, a man-made tradition is a good tradition if it does not violate the commandment of God.

Hanukah
(Feast of the Dedication) is an example of a good man-made tradition which does not violate a commandment of God.

Agreed. Not all traditions are found to be condemned by the Bible.


The Sabbath laws were not commands of Jesus Christ.

Not true at all.

Christ kept Sabbath - Christ insisted that He was not coming to destroy the Law of God in Matt 5. And Christ condemned the efforts of man-made-traditions to abolish even in the least - one of the Commandments of God - in Mark 7:6-13.

This is irrefutable.


Paul instructs the Gentile converts that they are not required to obey the Law of Moses and its festival laws, new moon laws, and its Sabbath laws. Some Jewish converts were hassling the non-Jewish converts to obey the Law of Moses and all its ceremonial laws including its Sabbath laws. Paul said to ignore these troublesome Jewish converts.

Colossians 2:13-17
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him.
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. rsv


1. The Sabbaths of Col 2 are only the feast Sabbaths of Lev 23.
2. Romans 14 defends the keeping of all of them.
3. Col 2 is only condemning man-made-traditions added to the Word of God.


As for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

A bit of a problem for those who "need" to avoid this part of Colossians 2 context and detail.



 
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BukiRob

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You don't obey the law and you don't understand.
Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
You are not under the law of sin and death... you are MOST definitely under the Torah
 
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BukiRob

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Thank you Jan for doing the research. You have provided some very interesting data. You highlighted the following:
He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

"He" meaning Jesus, "them" meaning the Apostles. The Apostles were dead by AD155 and in all their writings found in scripture they didn't leave a trace of evidence Jesus taught that Sunday was/is Holy, sacred, the new day of rest or anything else to indicate we are to "keep" Sunday. Sorry, but I am not convinced from what you have provided that Jesus, in any way, made a new sacred day. If that were true then certainly the New Testament would reveal such an event. Sacredness is not to be taken lightly and if such would be true then the Apostles were negligent in providing that information in scripture.

Oral information changes with each orator.:)


Not only that, but Sabbath is a FUNDAMENTAL issue. It is not a peripheral or a minor side issue. Sabbath is a part of creation itself. To suggest that the Messiah taught of "another day" is so absurd given there is zero evidence of this that it defies even the most basic of reason. All of the gospel accounts clearly, unmistakably show Yeshua observing Sabbath. He never once even hinted that Sabbath was done away with.
 
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Travis93

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You are not under the law of sin and death... you are MOST definitely under the Torah
Indeed, the contrast is shown clearly right here. The law Paul speaks against isn't God's own laws, it's your own sinful nature.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
 
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BukiRob

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Indeed, the contrast is shown clearly right here. The law Paul speaks against isn't God's own laws, it's your own sinful nature.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul even says that the Torah is HOLY. So then, why is their such a repudiation by many who are called by Messiah's name?? Because Paul also tells us that the flesh is at WAR with G-d. We are born with a rebellious nature and that nature wants NOTHING to do with being Holy. As a result our natural tendency is to reject the things of G-d. Its far easier to just have Jesus as your saviour than it is to walk upright and holy. To say not my will and my way Father but your will which you so mercifully laid out for us in your Torah!
 
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Travis93

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Paul even says that the Torah is HOLY. So then, why is their such a repudiation by many who are called by Messiah's name?? Because Paul also tells us that the flesh is at WAR with G-d. We are born with a rebellious nature and that nature wants NOTHING to do with being Holy. As a result our natural tendency is to reject the things of G-d. Its far easier to just have Jesus as your saviour than it is to walk upright and holy. To say not my will and my way Father but your will which you so mercifully laid out for us in your Torah!
People try to act like God's holy, righteous instruction for living is some kind of "bondage". But according to Jesus sin is the bondage he came to free us from.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 
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W2L

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I am just an ignorant man, struggling to get through this life, so please accept my humble opinion as just that, humble.

I do not know everything, I will not tell anyone to obey or disobey anything. I will instead follow Romans 14 as best I can. Its all I can do.

Its my humble opinion that Gods commands are not always easy, but this doesn't mean they are burdensome. Look at what Paul says in Romans. He says that in his mind he desires to do what is right, (and this shows that its not a burden to him because he desires to do what is right), howsoever he also says that he doesn't always do what he desires to do. "Woe is him! Who will save this wretched man?"

We see from pauls words, that to him, failing to keep Gods commands is more of a burden than to keep them. Keeping Gods commands would give him gerat joy I think. Its the failing part that burdens him.

Now, lets consider this. Why would we want to add to that burden, by adding more commands than is needed? Its not a burden to keep them but to fail! So then, lets consider romans 14 now. The kingdom is about peace, righteousness and joy in the spirit. If a man is living a moral life, free from lust and lies, and he is walking in love which fulfills the law, why then do we want to add to his burden by adding more things to him? Its not a burden to keep but to fail. God has given us liberty from the law, hasn't he? No one in their right mind would disagree with doing what is just and good, or with love, so why add the Sabbath to them? THe argument and division caused by this topic alone is burdensome isn't it? Who likes to argue all day? Isnt peace and joy in the spirit better?
 
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BobRyan

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I am just an ignorant man, struggling to get through this life, so please accept my humble opinion as just that, humble.

I do not know everything, I will not tell anyone to obey or disobey anything. I will instead follow Romans 14 as best I can. Its all I can do.

Its my humble opinion that Gods commands are not always easy, but this doesn't mean they are burdensome. Look at what Paul says in Romans. He says that in his mind he desires to do what is right, (and this shows that its not a burden to him because he desires to do what is right), howsoever he also says that he doesn't always do what he desires to do. "Woe is him! Who will save this wretched man?"

We see from pauls words, that to him, failing to keep Gods commands is more of a burden than to keep them. Keeping Gods commands would give him gerat joy I think. Its the failing part that burdens him.

Now, lets consider this. Why would we want to add to that burden, by adding more commands than is needed? Its not a burden to keep them but to fail! So then, lets consider romans 14 now. The kingdom is about peace, righteousness and joy in the spirit. If a man is living a moral life, free from lust and lies, and he is walking in love which fulfills the law, why then do we want to add to his burden by adding more things to him? Its not a burden to keep but to fail. God has given us liberty from the law, hasn't he? No one in their right mind would disagree with doing what is just and good, or with love, so why add the Sabbath to them? THe argument and division caused by this topic alone is burdensome isn't it? Who likes to argue all day? Isnt peace and joy in the spirit better?

Romans 3: 19-21 says that God's LAW defines what sin is - and condemns the entire world as sinners.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20

"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

And that same chapter says by our faith we "establish the LAW"

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th Commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul even says that the Torah is HOLY. So then, why is their such a repudiation by many who are called by Messiah's name?? Because Paul also tells us that the flesh is at WAR with G-d. We are born with a rebellious nature and that nature wants NOTHING to do with being Holy. As a result our natural tendency is to reject the things of G-d. Its far easier to just have Jesus as your saviour than it is to walk upright and holy. To say not my will and my way Father but your will which you so mercifully laid out for us in your Torah!

Indeed.

In Romans 8:4-9 Paul says that it is the lost who "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"
 
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W2L

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Romans 3: 19-21 says that God's LAW defines what sin is - and condemns the entire world as sinners.

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20

"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

And that same chapter says by our faith we "establish the LAW"

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th Commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN.

The law has been nullified though. We don't live under OT penalties of death. We don't circumcise the flesh either. We do however establish the law of the spirit though, the law that the apostles gave to us through the new ministry of the spirit.
 
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W2L

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Indeed.

In Romans 8:4-9 Paul says that it is the lost who "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"

Paul said when he was with those under the law, he was under the law as well, but when he was with those not under the law he was not under the law as well, and so he was all things to all men. However he was not ever without the law of Christ. The law of God is the law of Christ. Its not about OT Sabbaths but is about what the apostles command us.
 
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