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Paul said when he was with those under the law, he was under the law as well, but when he was with those not under the law he was not under the law as well, and so he was all things to all men. However he was not ever without the law of Christ. The law of God is the law of Christ. Its not about OT Sabbaths but is about what the apostles command us.
See bob, the law of Christ is Gods law
1 Corinthians 9:21
“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.”
I am just an ignorant man, struggling to get through this life, so please accept my humble opinion as just that, humble.
I do not know everything, I will not tell anyone to obey or disobey anything. I will instead follow Romans 14 as best I can. Its all I can do.
Its my humble opinion that Gods commands are not always easy, but this doesn't mean they are burdensome. Look at what Paul says in Romans. He says that in his mind he desires to do what is right, (and this shows that its not a burden to him because he desires to do what is right), howsoever he also says that he doesn't always do what he desires to do. "Woe is him! Who will save this wretched man?"
We see from pauls words, that to him, failing to keep Gods commands is more of a burden than to keep them. Keeping Gods commands would give him gerat joy I think. Its the failing part that burdens him.
Now, lets consider this. Why would we want to add to that burden, by adding more commands than is needed? Its not a burden to keep them but to fail! So then, lets consider romans 14 now. The kingdom is about peace, righteousness and joy in the spirit. If a man is living a moral life, free from lust and lies, and he is walking in love which fulfills the law, why then do we want to add to his burden by adding more things to him? Its not a burden to keep but to fail. God has given us liberty from the law, hasn't he? No one in their right mind would disagree with doing what is just and good, or with love, so why add the Sabbath to them? THe argument and division caused by this topic alone is burdensome isn't it? Who likes to argue all day? Isnt peace and joy in the spirit better?
The law has been nullified though.
The law has been nullified though.
We don't live under OT penalties of death. We don't circumcise the flesh either.
And Christ said that the OT Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" and the "Commandments of God" Mark 7:6-13 which NT church members were condemned for breaking.
Christ also said that He gave not a single word of His OWN - but only as the Father speaks.
Thus Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
is quoted by Christ "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 -- before the cross.
How about circumcision law? That isn't a sacrifice or sin offering is it? Its not a civil law either is it?Romans 3: 19-21 says that God's LAW defines what sin is - and condemns the entire world as sinners.
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20
"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
And that same chapter says by our faith we "establish the LAW"
Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th Commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN.
That Bible says --
Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
But you say -- the exact opposite.
Heb 10 says the sacrifices and offerings ceased.
And of course the civil penalties cease when theocracy they were ordained within - ceased.
How about circumcision law? That isn't a sacrifice or sin offering is it? Its not a civil law either is it?
Actually bob you are taking everything out of context.
Your assertion, which says that Christ only spoke the previous words of God, this isn't a proper interpretation of scripture.
Just not in "real life".
I didn't say "the previous words" -- you are "quoting you" on that one.
I said that Christ never argues his Word against the Father - rather He claims that He speaks ONLY the words of the Father - and none of His own.
In the Bible - God says says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible - God says "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible God says "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4 -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible God says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the NT there is not a single quote of the 3rd commandment - saying not to take God's name in vain -- and you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle." -- as if the Sabbath is like it. But you are wrong in that the Sabbath commandment IS quoted in the NT - in places like Rev 14:7 and in Hebrews 4.
But the 3rd commandment is never quoted at all in the NT - which means "nothing" of course since it is merely a "fluff rule" and not actual Bible exegesis that invents the idea of "deleting whatever is not repeating"
Its not just the lack of the Sabbath command in the NT,
but is also about the rest of the NT teaching. We see liberty from the Law in Galatians 5-6,
And you seem to claim by implication the NT isn't Scripture while Peter claims some of it is on par (equal to) Scripture. You have nothing to offer the Christian believer.The Apostles claim the OT is scripture and the "Word of God" just as Christ said in Mark 7:6-13.
This isn't a quote from the OT, Bob. Its similar but not a quote. Besides Jesus didn't issue the 10 Cs as you promote.And Christ said that the OT Ten Commandments are the "Word of God" and the "Commandments of God" Mark 7:6-13 which NT church members were condemned for breaking.
Christ also said that He gave not a single word of His OWN - but only as the Father speaks.
Thus Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
is quoted by Christ "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 -- before the cross.
What you're doing is leading the witness to lie with partial quotes.Romans 3: 19-21 says that God's LAW defines what sin is - and condemns the entire world as sinners.
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20
"Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
And that same chapter says by our faith we "establish the LAW"
Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Ephesians 6:2 - the 5th Commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN.
That Bible says --
Rom 3:31 " Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
But you say -- the exact opposite.
Heb 10 says the sacrifices and offerings ceased.
And of course the civil penalties cease when theocracy they were ordained within - ceased.
Interesting that circumcision supersedes the Sabbath in requirement.1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" --
Now if you read that chapter you see that this is in direct contrast to ceremonial law - like circumcision.
17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
No details were skipped over.I didn't say "the previous words" -- you are "quoting you" on that one.
I said that Christ never argues his Word against the Father - rather He claims that He speaks ONLY the words of the Father - and none of His own.
In the Bible - God says says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible - God says "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27 but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible God says "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4 -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the Bible God says "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- but you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle."
In the NT there is not a single quote of the 3rd commandment - saying not to take God's name in vain -- and you say "The Lord never once commands Sabbath and neither does any apostle." -- as if the Sabbath is like it. But you are wrong in that the Sabbath commandment IS quoted in the NT - in places like Rev 14:7 and in Hebrews 4.
But the 3rd commandment (to not take God's name in vain) is never quoted at all in the NT - which means "nothing" of course since it is merely a "fluff rule" and not actual Bible exegesis that invents the idea of "deleting whatever is not repeating"
Rev 14:17 - -the Sabbath commandment quoted.
Acts 14:15 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted.
Acts 4:24 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Rev 5:13 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Rev 10:6 - the Sabbath Commandment quoted
Heb 4:9 - the Sabbath Commandment - commanded
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath MADE for MANKIND"
Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"
Not even ONE example of that for the 3rd commandment to "not take God's name in vain"!!
Sadly you skipped over the details.
Just not in real life. In real life we have "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:7
And in Rom 8:4-9 it is only the lost that are at war with the Law of God.
Hence 1 John 5:3-4.
And you seem to claim by implication the NT isn't Scripture
This isn't a quote from the OT, Bob. Its similar but not a quote. Besides Jesus didn't issue the 10 Cs as you promote.
bugkiller
Thank you Jan for doing the research. You have provided some very interesting data. You highlighted the following:
He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).
"He" meaning Jesus, "them" meaning the Apostles. The Apostles were dead by AD155 and in all their writings found in scripture they didn't leave a trace of evidence Jesus taught that Sunday was/is Holy, sacred, the new day of rest or anything else to indicate we are to "keep" Sunday. Sorry, but I am not convinced from what you have provided that Jesus, in any way, made a new sacred day. If that were true then certainly the New Testament would reveal such an event. Sacredness is not to be taken lightly and if such would be true then the Apostles were negligent in providing that information in scripture.
Oral information changes with each orator.![]()
Agreed. And Christ makes the case in Mark 7 that "Moses said" and "The Word of God" and "the Commandment of God" are the same thing - all of them applying to this example in the case of the TEN Commandments.
What is more Christ said they were doing "MANY such things as that" -- so then not just an issue with this ONE Commandment.
By contrast - these guys are the church "magisterium" and they are getting hammered - "sola scriptura" by Christ.
No doubt. And the way we know if it is in violation of the Commandments of God - is that we read them.
Christ kept Sabbath - Christ insisted that He was not coming to destroy the Law of God in Matt 5. And Christ condemned the efforts of man-made-traditions to abolish even in the least - one of the Commandments of God - in Mark 7:6-13.
This is irrefutable.