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If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

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Jan001

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Turns out - this is the teaching of Christ --

"Love Me and KEEP my Commandments" EX 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In the Commandments of God - the 5th Commandment is "the FIRST Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2



This is the part in your post where you are certainly right.

No problem with that - and as you can see from the post you are quoting - I am sticking with the Bible on this one.
\


What commandments are we to obey?

We are to obey the commandments that Jesus taught us to obey. He is God and we obey His commandments. Jesus did not command anyone to keep the Sabbath.

Galatians 3:23-25
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; rsv

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. rsv


Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv


Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

I am to obey the gospel of Jesus. Jesus never commanded that anyone keep the Sabbath. Why do insist that we do?

Here are Jesus' commands. If we keep these commandments, we will be worthy to inherit eternal life:

Luke 18:18-21
And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have observed from my youth.” rsv

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”


Why do you add a Sabbath commandment? Who gave you the authority to change Jesus' gospel?
 
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Jan001

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Does not mean what you have written into it.

Luke 16 - "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

Because as we see in Acts 13, and in Acts 17:4 and in Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" - the god-fearing gentile believers were in synagogues - thus even in these examples hearing Gospel sermons ... "every Sabbath".

Every Sabbath the Jews were in the synagogues. The apostles went there to preach the gospel to them because that is where large groups of them gathered every Saturday. Still today, the Jews gather in their synagogues every Saturday.

2 Corinthians 3:12-15
Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor. 14 But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; rsv

Sadly that excludes Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
It excludes Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

It excludes Eph 6:2 "Honor your parents" - from Ex 20:12.
It excludes "Do not take God's name in vain" from Ex 20:7.

Fortunately both your "Dies Domini" document from Pope John Paul II and your own Catechism flatly deny the wild speculation that the TEN Commandments are NOT for mankind.

You just contradicted your own teaching when you claimed that only the rules found in Acts 15 apply to all.

Please choose the Bible. Or at the very least -- choose what your own church says about the Ten Commandments.

The Catholic Church has its own Ten Commandments.
Please refer to them before you criticize me. I listed all ten of them in a previous post. These are the official teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
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BobRyan

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\


What commandments are we to obey?

We are to obey the commandments that Jesus taught us to obey. He is God and we obey His commandments.

Hebrews 8:6-10 says Christ is the one that gave us the TEN Commandments.

Christ in Matt 19 goes back to the TEN Commandments as those which we are to obey.

Christ in Mark 7:6-13 condemns all church traditions that would dare oppose even one of the Ten Commandments.

Your own Papal - Dies Domini points to the TEN Commandments as that which is still binding on mankind.

Dies Domini.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection.


"God blessed the seventh day and made it holy" (Gn 2:3)

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic(Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized.


Jesus did not command anyone to keep the Sabbath.

Until you read the actual Bible "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

This is "why" your own church -- your own denomination is not dead-wrong to affirm God's TEN Commandments as being the moral law of God that is not at all limited to "only the Jews".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Here are Jesus' commands. If we keep these commandments, we will be worthy to inherit eternal life:

Luke 18:18-21
And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have observed from my youth.” rsv


In Luke 18 Jesus does not say to Love God with all your heart.

Does that mean that in Luke 18 - God was deleting the Deut 6:5 command to love God with all your heart?

NO as we see in Luke 10


Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”


Notice that while this is not Christ speaking in Luke 10 - and while the quote in Luke 10 does not include "Do not kill" and "Honor your father and mother" - yet the Luke 10 list does not DELETE the TEN commandments - not even those in Luke 18.

"The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 even your own Pope affirms this -- why do you seek to wage war against your own church as well as this text?
 
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BobRyan

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The Catholic Church has its own Ten Commandments.
Please refer to them before you criticize me. .

Quick someone tell the Pope -- because apparently HE was not informed about this --

Dies Domini.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection.


"God blessed the seventh day and made it holy" (Gn 2:3)

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic(Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized.
 
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BobRyan

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Your own Catholic Catechism - commentary says it is I who keep both the Lord's Day AND the Sabbath according to the Bible -- and you do not. It is your own text saying it.!!

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"
we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================
As for why the RCC commentary on the Catechism may need to take another look at the Bible --

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture
=========================================================================​



Catholic Commentaries are simply the editors' opinions. Commentaries made by Catholics do not necessarily reflect infallible Catholic doctrine.

And yet - it has the "Papal Imprimatur"

Makes me wonder if your own off-the-cuff rejection of the teaching of your own commentary on the CCC and your own Pope John Paul II -- would also get the "Papal Imprimatur"..

Many of us here - think it would not.

I am not Catholic - you are...I am more than happy to declare all Popes and Catholic Catechism's and Catholic Commentaries to be incorporating a lot of error in their teaching.

Still - at some point it would pay you to adopt the Catholic argument -- and then notice just where it does not fit with the Bible.
 
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BobRyan

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Turns out - this is the teaching of Christ --

"Love Me and KEEP my Commandments" EX 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In the Commandments of God - the 5th Commandment is "the FIRST Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
This is the part in your post where you are certainly right.

No problem with that - and as you can see from the post you are quoting - I am sticking with the Bible on this one.


\
What commandments are we to obey?
We are to obey the commandments that Jesus taught us to obey. He is God and we obey His commandments.

1. Jesus said that not one word that He spoke was His own - but rather He only took whatever the Father said.
2. Jesus tells us in Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" RIGHT IN THE TEN Commandments!

While this is a huge problem for someone taking your war-against-God's-Commandments solution - it is not a problem for Pope John Paul II's Dies Domini - that affirms them!!

3. Notice also this question was answered for you in the Eph 6:2 quote -- in the very post that you quoted. It is only by ignoring almost every detail in the post that you then ask the question "what commandments".
 
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bugkiller

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Hebrews 8:6-10 says Christ is the one that gave us the TEN Commandments.
You're making stuff up cause your reference says nothing of the kind.
Christ in Matt 19 goes back to the TEN Commandments as those which we are to obey.
No it doesn't. The full story is someone asked what must I do and left sad. Further more the Scripture says there are none that keep the law.
Christ in Mark 7:6-13 condemns all church traditions that would dare oppose even one of the Ten Commandments.
No again.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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In Luke 18 Jesus does not say to Love God with all your heart.

Does that mean that in Luke 18 - God was deleting the Deut 6:5 command to love God with all your heart?

NO as we see in Luke 10


Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”


Notice that while this is not Christ speaking in Luke 10 - and while the quote in Luke 10 does not include "Do not kill" and "Honor your father and mother" - yet the Luke 10 list does not DELETE the TEN commandments - not even those in Luke 18.
Really? Is the lawyer also the Teacher in your quote?

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.
"WE have had the Gospel preached to us just as THEY also" Heb 4:1-2
"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock - and that Rock was CHRIST" 1Cor 10:4
Moses and Elijah stand with CHRIST in Matt 17.
And then of course -- Hebrews 11.



Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE Gospel -- before saying that it was preached to Abraham in Gal 3:7.

Have you not heard of it??
What is that one Gospel, Bob? You preach the law as the gospel.

bugkiller
 
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Jan001

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Hebrews 8:6-10 says Christ is the one that gave us the TEN Commandments.

Christ in Matt 19 goes back to the TEN Commandments as those which we are to obey.

Christ in Mark 7:6-13 condemns all church traditions that would dare oppose even one of the Ten Commandments.

Your own Papal - Dies Domini points to the TEN Commandments as that which is still binding on mankind.

Dies Domini.
63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection.

Before Jesus died on the cross, the Lord's Day was the Saturday Sabbath. After Jesus died on the cross, the Lord's Day became the eighth day, which is also the first day of the week [Sunday].

Dies Domini is an apostolic letter and it is Pope John Paul II's thoughtful opinion. An apostolic letter is an opinion. It is not doctrine.

We learned from the early church fathers that Jesus told them to celebrate the Lord's Day on the first day of the week.
I'll stick with the early church fathers' teaching on this important topic. Most likely, Pope John Paul II did not have the opportunity to read all of the early church fathers' writings or he would have known that it was Jesus who commanded the Sunday rest day.


The Letter of Barnabas
Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, “What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord? I am full of burnt-offerings, and desire not the fat of lambs, and the blood of bulls and goats, not when ye come to appear before Me: for who hath required these things at your hands? Tread no more My courts, not though ye bring with you fine flour. Incense is a vain abomination unto Me, and your new moons and sabbaths I cannot endure.” He has therefore abolished these things, that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is without the yoke of necessity, might have a human oblation (The Epistle of Barnabas 1 Chapter II.—The Jewish sacrifices are now abolished.)

Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (The Epistle of Barnabas Chapter XV.—The false and the true Sabbath. [A.D. 74]).


Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).


"God blessed the seventh day and made it holy" (Gn 2:3)

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic(Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized.

Please note that John Paul II stated that the OT Sabbath prepared the way for the Sunday Worship of the new and eternal covenant. The OT Sabbath was a shadow of things [Sunday Breaking of Bread] to come.

Colossians 2:13-18
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. nkjv

I will not be changing my Sunday worship practices. The dietary laws, festivals, new moons, and sabbaths of the OT are not valid for a NT Christian.


Until you read the actual Bible "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

This is "why" your own church -- your own denomination is not dead-wrong to affirm God's TEN Commandments as being the moral law of God that is not at all limited to "only the Jews".

in Christ,

Bob

To help one's neighbor or even one's animal on the Sabbath is what is meant by the Sabbath was made for mankind.

The Catholic Church's Ten Commandments reflect the teaching of Jesus Christ about His commands for the Sunday Lord's Day, and the Catholic Ten Commandments do not reflect the OT Commandment regarding the Sabbaths of the Jews which no longer pleased God. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. According to the early church fathers, Jesus commanded the apostles to gather together on the first day of the week [which also corresponds to the eighth day of the week].

Isaiah 1:13
Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. nkjv

Ezekiel 43:27
When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,’ says the Lord God.”
nkjv
For about 2000 years now, and still counting, every eighth day, aka Sunday, the priests of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches throughout the whole world re-present on the altars of their churches, the perfect offering of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross under the appearances of bread and wine to His Father as a memorial just like Jesus commanded at His last supper before He died. This is not a new sacrifice and this is not a different sacrifice. This is the same exact sacrifice that Jesus offered to His Father at His Last Supper.

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts. nkjv
 
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bugkiller

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Turns out - this is the teaching of Christ --

"Love Me and KEEP my Commandments" EX 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In the Commandments of God - the 5th Commandment is "the FIRST Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
One out of four isn't very good.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt.
Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


If you mean as a religious distinction, no, but similarly you could say unbelievers aren't in the new covenant. Ethnic gentiles certainly could be included. There was a mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with the Israelites (Exodus 12:38).
Joshua 8:35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all of the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant.
Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
And of course the famous converts like Rahab (Joshua 2:9-11) and Ruth (Ruth 1:16), who got to be included in the genealogy of the messiah (Matthew 1:5). The book of Jonah details the salvation of the entire gentile city of Niveveh, confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 12:41). Even the queen of Sheba apparently got saved by coming to seek the wisdom of Solomon (Matthew 14:42, 1 Kings 10:1-13).
Wow! just WOW!!

Most certainly unbelievers aren't included in the NC. It doesn't matter if they're ethnic gentiles or Jews.

Every time God gave something to Moses, God said to tell the COI opposed to a multitude. So your point fails.

bugkiller
 
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Jan001

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In Luke 18 Jesus does not say to Love God with all your heart.

Does that mean that in Luke 18 - God was deleting the Deut 6:5 command to love God with all your heart?

NO as we see in Luke 10


Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”


Notice that while this is not Christ speaking in Luke 10 - and while the quote in Luke 10 does not include "Do not kill" and "Honor your father and mother" - yet the Luke 10 list does not DELETE the TEN commandments - not even those in Luke 18.

"The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 even your own Pope affirms this -- why do you seek to wage war against your own church as well as this text?

You are free to believe that the Saturday Sabbath is required. I am free to believe that it is not. :)
 
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bugkiller

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Not according to the actual Bible "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
Not according to Christ "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
Not according to Hebrews 4 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
And certainly not according to your out of context partial quotes.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Turns out - this is the teaching of Christ --

"Love Me and KEEP my Commandments" EX 20:6
"If you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

In the Commandments of God - the 5th Commandment is "the FIRST Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
Like I said one out of four isn't good.

bugkiller
 
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Jan001

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Quick someone tell the Pope -- because apparently HE was not informed about this --

Dies Domini.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection.


"God blessed the seventh day and made it holy" (Gn 2:3)

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic(Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized.

Pope John Paul II stated that Jesus performed many healings on the Sabbath, the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day before Jesus died on the cross was the Saturday Sabbath.

But, since Jesus' death on the cross and the ratifying of the New Covenant, the Lord's Day is Sunday.

The Sabbath precept prepared the way for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant.

I agree with Pope John Paul II on both of these things. :)
 
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Jan001

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Your own Catholic Catechism - commentary says it is I who keep both the Lord's Day AND the Sabbath according to the Bible -- and you do not. It is your own text saying it.!!

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"
we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================
As for why the RCC commentary on the Catechism may need to take another look at the Bible --

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture
=========================================================================​





And yet - it has the "Papal Imprimatur"

Makes me wonder if your own off-the-cuff rejection of the teaching of your own commentary on the CCC and your own Pope John Paul II -- would also get the "Papal Imprimatur"..

Many of us here - think it would not.

I am not Catholic - you are...I am more than happy to declare all Popes and Catholic Catechism's and Catholic Commentaries to be incorporating a lot of error in their teaching.

Still - at some point it would pay you to adopt the Catholic argument -- and then notice just where it does not fit with the Bible.

You really do not understand Catholic teaching at all regarding doctrine and opinion and you've also shown me that you do not comprehend what is written in papal documents. So, please, stop lecturing me! :)
 
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Travis93

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Wow! just WOW!!

Most certainly unbelievers aren't included in the NC. It doesn't matter if they're ethnic gentiles or Jews.

Every time God gave something to Moses, God said to tell the COI opposed to a multitude. So your point fails.

bugkiller
You said gentiles weren't included in the OC and I showed plenty of examples of gentiles who came to faith in the Old Testament. My point was that saying gentiles aren't included is the same as saying unbelievers aren't included, obviously if you don't submit to God you aren't part of his covenants. What do you have to say about those eternal life/resurrection quotes? I thought you said there was no hope of eternal life before the new covenant? Here's another set, enjoy Ezekiel 37:1-14
 
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Bob S

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Pope John Paul II stated that Jesus performed many healings on the Sabbath, the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day before Jesus died on the cross was the Saturday Sabbath.

But, since Jesus' death on the cross and the ratifying of the New Covenant, the Lord's Day is Sunday.

The Sabbath precept prepared the way for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant.

I agree with Pope John Paul II on both of these things. :)
Hi Jan, I agree with much of what you have written. First a disclaimer, Sunday is a great day to assemble. Sunday is recognized throughout the World as a day to recreate. I have no beef with attending in corporate worship on Sunday or any other day of the week. I try to attend regularly.

What I would like to emphasize from the New Testament is that there is no indication that a special day of rest is part of the new covenant. Hebrews tells us not to forsake assembling ourselves together. Every day is the Lord's day and if a church feels the need to make one day special we are free to do just that.

The big problem that I see is that some groups insist that we worship on the day they hold dear to their hearts. We have given them proof over and over that they are in the wrong by doing so. They even make it a salvational issue, damning us to hell if we don't abide by their misconceptions. Throughout all of history Biblical and otherwise God has never given gentiles a command to observe a day. Only Israel was given a command to observe days and all of those days had significance only for Israel. The weekly Sabbath was to commemorate their release from bondage in Egypt as was Passover. The other feast holy days were specific to Israel only. The covenant which contained all of those ritual commands ended at the Cross. Jesus fulfilled the law. Israel broke the covenant making the covenant void
 
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