If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[bugkiller]

You quoted Hebrews 11:7 and placed your own interpretation of salvation (Grace) context to what these old covenant saints had been promised. Yet you have left out the true context explained by the apostolic author who in later versus and on two occassions would contrast the old covenant righteousness by faith/works to the new covenant righteousness in Christ. There was two gospels and two covenants and the new covenant in Christ replaced the old, which was a promise solely based on the SEED OF PROMISE Christ Jesus who would come to set all free from spiritual death.

So let us read the true context........



Well they being the old covenant saints had not recieved the promises of eternal inheritance, that was tied to a better country, that is, an heavenly one. This means that their righteousness was a plea bargain or a pardon from execution, hence they were on death row (Shoel), until Messiah came to then save them, so that by his righteousness (sinless), they could then recieve what was promised.

After all the apostolic writer mentions this twice, if in case a reader missed it the first time.......



So the righteousness of Noah, Abraham and the rest of the old covenant saints was an earthly righteousness tied to hope of receiving the promise of a heavenly righteousness that would come from heaven, to be bestowed upon them, in order for them to recieve the eternal inheritance that was promised to them.

The heavenly promise was tied to the seed of promise Christ Jesus, for he is the heavenly that descended and then ascended, in order for all in the last days of the old covenant, for all to receive the promise and not before.




So Isaac was a symbol/figure of the Son of righteousness Christ Jesus, who God was able to raise up as the SEED OF PROMISE, that through Christ it was possible for God to justify the outpouring of his Grace and in this regard the old covenant of death was annulled.

The old covenant gospel was an earthly one tied to an earthly righteousness, that was associated with faith by works. The new gospel of Jesus Christ is in context to the heavenly country, one that is tied to the heavenly righteousness, which is faith by Christ.



All things could not have been filled up by the measure of God's Grace, before the heavenly Christ who descended, to then ascend up far above all heavens, after his resurrection.

If the earthly righteousness of the old covenant saints made it possible for them to receive their eternal inheritance, to then proceed to heaven without Christ, then this would not necessitate Christ to come in the first place, because those who by their own righteousness (faith by works), had already been merited God's Grace in the absence of the cross and in this regard they would have already recieved the promise before the cross. Scripture clearly states that the promise to the heavenly eternal inheritance was NOT received by any old covenant saint. Therefore no old covenant saint (Elijah, Moses, Enoch, Abraham) could go to heaven before the cross of Christ as stated in John 3:13.

That's exactly what he believes. Salvation with out Christ, that is one will stand before God on their own merits. Not me I'll say Jesus.

bugkiller

 

[Berean777]

@bugkiller you are 100% correct. The law for the flesh is dead and there is nothing that we can do outwardly in the flesh, that would justify our faith or to show our love to the Lord. The law that we follow is to abide in Christ and in following in his footsteps, as he said.....

Matthew 16:24
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

We don't need to observe Saturday or perform any old covenant practice that are not a measure of our faith or love to the Lord. Our life long walk, obedience and love with the Lord, is applied through the heart and this inward act fulfils all the law.

Jesus would say if you love me then abide in me, for I stand at the door of your heart and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens their heart to me, then my heavenly righteousness will flow in them.

I can observe the sabbath and do everything that Judaisers do in relation to the Mosaic law, but if God doesn't count this as heavenly righteousness, then it is ritualistically done in vain. Why would one need to go through an outward process to show obedience, when the Lord requires the very heart to be obedient to him.

Our walk is in the spirit and our obedience is to the Spirit and our observances is in abiding in the Lord of the Sabbath.

The old covenant pertained to an earthly righteousness demonstrated outwardly in the flesh. This was a token gesture absent of God's saving Grace. Under this agreement men died because they were judged according to the flesh and in so doing all had been found to have fallen short of the glory of God. In this regard they were men on death row awaiting the Messiah to come and ransom them from the one who had power over death. So the old covenant was an earthly covenant that meant that the person was to die along with the earthly body. The old covenant saints by doing these outward practices and sacrifices had bought an adjournment in time, whilst they went down to Shoel (a waiting place), until Messiah came to preach to them and to free the many captives and then and only then to give them gifts. (Ephesians 4:8)

The new covenant pertains to a heavenly righteousness demonstrated inwardly in the spirit. Under this new agreement men are considered dead to the flesh and are considered as prisoners of Christ under God's Grace and in this regard God sees them righteous through his only begotten Son. It means that the very inward act of a believer loving Jesus Christ and in following his teachings meant that the believer is justified in Christ and sanctified by the works of the Holy Ghost within him inwardly, as a measure of the Grace apportioned by Christ.

So what I have been trying to tell Messianics and Seven day Adventists all along is that the Law is applied inwardly in the heart and not outwardly in the flesh. Note we are not talking about breaking commandments, rather the commandments no longer are put in the ark of the covenant, because we born again Christains are the Ark of the Covenant, where the Laws are put in us and this would be evident to God through our love to his only begotten Son.

John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

 

[BobRyan]

The old covenant pertained to an earthly righteousness demonstrated outwardly in the flesh. This was a token gesture absent of God's saving Grace. Under this agreement men died because they were judged according to the flesh and in so doing all had been found to have fallen short of the glory of God.

The no-Gospel and all-lost idea for the OT - does not survive Heb 4:2 "We have had the Gospel preached to US just as THEY also"

Does not survive Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Does not survive Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel" in all of time.
Does not survive Heb 11 - the saints of the OT held up as models for NT saints - as even Noah is said to have "pursued righteousness which is by faith" - and that the OT saints were pleasing to God
Does not survive Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glorified form - BEFORE the cross.
Does not survive John 8 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad"
Does not survive 1 Peter 1 - where we find that the OT Bible writers were shown the "sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

 

[BobRyan]

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

When you repeat on saying that Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8), you are confusing the definition of Grace.

Yes Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord, but Noah was not offered Grace before the cross of Christ

May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.

And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one

Absolutely not! If Grace was poured upon those who were by faith obedient to God, then it would not be Grace

Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.

But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"


Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.

By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.

You quoted Hebrews 11:7 and placed your own interpretation of salvation (Grace) context

You invented another grace... another Gospel... I am sticking with just one.

Take a look at Gal 1:6-9 to see how that works out as Gal 3:7 reminds us "the GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

The point remains. Your argument is "with the text".

Well they being the old covenant saints had not recieved the promises of eternal inheritance

Eternal life YES as we see in Matt 17 Moses and Elijah - eternal INHERITANCE is the New Earth. Matt 5 "the meek shall INHERIT the EARTH"

They did not receive the NEW Earth according to Heb 11 - none of them have. Not even those in heaven in Matt 17 Moses and Elijah -- and Enoch had received the New Earth. Matt 5 "the meek shall INHERIT the EARTH" -- points to Rev 21 - after the Millennium .

, that was tied to a better country, that is, an heavenly one.

In the Rev 21 "NEW Earth" -- "New heavens and NEW earth" where the "Meek inherit the EARTH" - the NEW Jerusalem in heaven -- COMES DOWN to Earth.

Rev 21
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

 

[Berean777]

The no-Gospel and all-lost idea for the OT - does not survive Heb 4:2 "We have had the Gospel preached to US just as THEY also"

Does not survive Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Does not survive Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel" in all of time.
Does not survive Heb 11 - the saints of the OT held up as models for NT saints - as even Noah is said to have "pursued righteousness which is by faith" - and that the OT saints were pleasing to God
Does not survive Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glorified form - BEFORE the cross.
Does not survive John 8 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad"
Does not survive 1 Peter 1 - where we find that the OT Bible writers were shown the "sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

I have tried to the best of my abilities, that God has given me to answer your posts. That being said, no matter how I answer your posts, you will continue to deflect the real issue and fail to refute the valid claims that I have made. Your dismissive replies have been along the lines of "No one agrees with you", "you invented another Grace".

I am willing to try a different approach to my previous efforts in trying to convince you whilst staying relevant to the thread topic.

In reply to your post quoted above, the simple answer to Abraham and the Old Covenant saints hearing the gospel or good news preached to them, was within the context of the one true God, that is why he is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel/Jacob. That being said, Abraham hearing the good news was tied to the SEED of Promise who would come from him, as scripture states to thy seed. Abraham heard and believed and put his hope in the Messiah to come to redeem him, because Abraham needed a saviour just like me and you. This saviour would come from Abraham's house.

Abraham having heard the good news of a soul redeemer coming from his household made him to hold out hope in recieving the promise through God's Grace. Abraham and the old covenant saints didn't recieve the promise until Grace/Jesus Christ came into the world. That is why scripture states.....

John 8:56
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Abraham longed to see the day that the SEED OF PROMISE Jesus Christ would come in flesh as the soul redeemer, to redeem all man kind through Grace. In the present tense verb "SAW", which pointed to Christ at that moment of realising what Abraham by faith had longed to see that day, which is the very day that Christ spoke those words as a testimony of Abraham's faith. Then Jesus said before Abraham was I was, pointing to himself as the chief architect to God's Grace. In other words Abraham longing for the day that the Christ would one day come into the world was tied to receiving the promise, when it was realised. It is obvious that before Christ Abraham didn't recieve that promise that was tied to the outpouring of Grace through God's chief architect/cornerstone Jesus Christ.

So the versus you quoted from Hebrews to Galatians contrasts the former ways of worship of an outward fleshly act of obedience to the spiritual application of obedience in Christ. Notice the former act didn't offer God's rest day and that through Christ only is one entering God's Sabbath, which means the old covenant saints had not entered it by means of their works because their works could not justify them, because Grace had not yet come into the world in their time.

If you are going to quote Galatians, then at least quote the context. The promise received is solely tied through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Abraham and the Old Covenant saints did not recieve the promise because Pentecost had not yet come. The promise of recieving the Holy Ghost was tied to entering the Sabbath rest of God and is directly connected to the outpouring of Grace. The measure of Grace is according to the apportioned outpouring of the Spirit to every believer in Christ. So did Abraham long to see the day, that is, post Pentecost? You better believe it, because before this outpouring or Holy Ghost reign, there was no Grace on offer and all were under the curse of the Mosaic law.

Galatians 3:1-14
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

[Berean777]

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.



May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.

And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one



Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.

But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"


Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.

By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.



You invented another grace... another Gospel... I am sticking with just one.

Take a look at Gal 1:6-9 to see how that works out as Gal 3:7 reminds us "the GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

The point remains. Your argument is "with the text".




Eternal life YES as we see in Matt 17 Moses and Elijah - eternal INHERITANCE is the New Earth. Matt 5 "the meek shall INHERIT the EARTH"

They did not receive the NEW Earth according to Heb 11 - none of them have. Not even those in heaven in Matt 17 Moses and Elijah -- and Enoch had received the New Earth. Matt 5 "the meek shall INHERIT the EARTH" -- points to Rev 21 - after the Millennium .



In the Rev 21 "NEW Earth" -- "New heavens and NEW earth" where the "Meek inherit the EARTH" - the NEW Jerusalem in heaven -- COMES DOWN to Earth.

Rev 21
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Your starting to repeat yourself. I have already answered this post.

The promise is tied to redemption of man through the Christ, for this is the only salvation gospel under the Sun.

Grace is directly tied to the outpouring of God's Spirit. Abraham and the prophets could not have recieved these Holy Ghost rains, because Pentecost was future.

Peter points to this outpouring of Grace as fulfillment to the prophesies mentioned in Joel.

Acts 2:16-21
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, thatwhosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How could there be Grace poured before the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?

Grace is a measure of the outpouring of the Spirit.

 

[Berean777]

Abraham was justified by faith in looking towards the future SEED, for this is the gospel that he heard and longed to see, yet was not saved until Grace/SEED/CHRIST came into the world. The rains that came on Pentecost were the measure of God's Grace that finally enabled the justified faithful to enter God's rest day, the Sabbath.

Abraham saw the days prophesied by Joel, but could not yet enter in, until Messiah came and then established through Pentecost what Abraham was told would happen in the future, as prophesied by Joel.

Rembering that Grace is the salvation gift of God through the promised SEED. Abraham longed to see it when he was in the earthly body but he didn't because Christ had not yet come.

The prophets and apostles are clear in pointing to Christ as God's architect for the outpouring of Grace.

John 1:17
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If Grace was given through Moses, then Moses would have been the Messiah. Obviously Moses was not the Messiah and in this regard Moses was not under Grace, but under the Mosaic Law.

 

[Meowzltov]

My claim is that your "loved = saved" speculation in Romans 11 does not survive John 3:16.

No loved doesn't mean saved in this verse. Loved means he sent his son for all. THOSE WHO BELIEVE are said to be saved.

ANYHOW, so you are saying that unbelieving jews who are enemies of the gospel are loved (saved)? Just making sure I understand you.

 

[BobRyan]

No loved doesn't mean saved in this verse. Loved means he sent his son for all. THOSE WHO BELIEVE are said to be saved.

Indeed...saved by grace through faith.

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says there is only one Gospel. No such thing as "saved by DNA".

ANYHOW, so you are saying that unbelieving jews who are enemies of the gospel are loved (saved)? Just making sure I understand you.

I am saying that ALL the lost -- not just unbelieving Jews - are loved by God. God so "loved the World" -- the lost World.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

 

[Berean777]

Genesis 22:17
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,

The promise was made to the future offsprings of Abraham that comprise of those who were once of the law and those who came by faith.

Christianity has spread far and wide in every earthly kingdom that was once enemies of Christianity. Least we forget the Roman Empire that persecuted the church, that later was absorbed into Christianity and came to be the largest segment of Christianity.

In this regard a picture is emerging of all nations that have come up against Christ and were simulated within the body of Christ. The last to be simulated after it has finished persecuting Christianity are the rebellious nation. To that nation resistance is futile!

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham was justified by faith in looking towards the future SEED, for this is the gospel that he heard and longed to see, yet was not saved until Grace/SEED/CHRIST came into the world.

Your doctrine requires that you quote you for "yet was not saved until Christ was born" or "yet was not saved until Christ died" or "was not saved until Christ was raised from the dead".

And of course that means your quote of you -- does not survive the Matt 17 text with Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glorified form -- BEFORE the cross.

 

[Berean777]

Your doctrine requires that you quote you for "yet was not saved until Christ was born" or "yet was not saved until Christ died" or "was not saved until Christ was raised from the dead".

And of course that means your quote of you -- does not survive the Matt 17 text with Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glorified form -- BEFORE the cross.

Is that it, is that all you have in your rebuttal of what I have previously posted? Hmmmmmm.........interesting!

You do realise that it disproves nothing what I have testified of thus far.

 

[Berean777]

I would like to quote you on this......

I am saying that ALL the lost -- not just unbelieving Jews - are loved by God. God so "loved the World" -- the lost World.

You do realise that the new covenant is a conditional agreement, just like the old covenant was. That is, if one remains in Christ then and only then are they loved by the Father, otherwise they remain enemies of God and will never see life, let alone be saved.

John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

The unbelieving world without Christ have not yet entered in a contract with God the Father and in this regard they fall under his greater condemnation.....

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

In the verse below the Greek has stronger connotations in the way the statement is communicated, that is, whoever does not have the Son of God will never see life.

1 John 5:12
12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life.

1 John 2:22
22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[Berean777]

Yes, God so loved the world that he offered the ultimate gift that the Father can give for the redemption of man and this gift was tied to an ultimatum to enter into a covenantial agreement/contract with him or else to face his wrath.

The pouring of Grace is conditionally based on entering into contract with God and in this regard as Paul would say, we become prisoners of Christ. This fulfils God's word that he will make the earth his Son's footstool.

If you love me, is a conditional statement, then abide in me and in this regard one is complying with the conditional contact and is under God's Grace and his protection. Venture outside of this conditional contact then it can be rendered null and void for that individual.

That is why the warning from Jesus......

Matthew 7:21-23
True and False Disciples

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If a person teaches Grace to the world outside of the blood covenant that warrants Grace then the person is in danger of the verse above.

Please, please and please when a person is teaching people about God's Grace, don't go outside of the cross of Christ to wrongly say that Grace is or was outside of the blood covenant contract. I have given a stern warning and if it falls on deaf ears then that person will give an answer before the Lord, I have clensed my hands in this regard.

 

[BobRyan]

No loved doesn't mean saved in this verse. Loved means he sent his son for all. THOSE WHO BELIEVE are said to be saved.

Indeed...saved by grace through faith.

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says there is only one Gospel. No such thing as "saved by DNA".

ANYHOW, so you are saying that unbelieving jews who are enemies of the gospel are loved (saved)? Just making sure I understand you.

I am saying that ALL the lost -- not just unbelieving Jews - are loved by God. God so "loved the World" -- the lost World.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

I would like to quote you on this......

Please do -- before the cross in fact from the foundations of the world "God so Loved the World" - the lost world - that HE gave His only begotten Son -- to be the sin offering, the atoning sacrifice - the substitutionary atoning sacrifice "for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the whole world"

You do realise that the new covenant is a conditional agreement, just like the old covenant was.

Under the New Covenant "we must choose the Gospel" such that "I have been crucified with Christ and not it is NO LONGER I who Live but Jesus Christ that lives in Me" Gal 2:20

under the Old Covenant - God says "as long as you are sinless - you live" - and that was the condition Adam had - but then ... Adam sinned. Still that was the condition that all the children of Adam had as well - such that Romans 3:19-21 took over for mankind from the fall of Adam onward - ALL the WORLD held accountable.

That is, if one remains in Christ then and only then are they loved by the Father

I see so then you would rewrite Romans 5 "God so loved NOBODY that He gave His only begotten son"??

Really??? You're going to need a lot more quoting "of you" on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Meowzltov]

I am saying that ALL the lost -- not just unbelieving Jews - are loved by God. God so "loved the World" -- the lost World.

Okay Bob, I've lost you. I no longer see what your point is. The verse in Romans 11 affirms that Jews are the elect with a positive statement, and also by contrasting it with enemies of the gospel. You cant get around it.

 

[Berean777]

Please do -- before the cross in fact from the foundations of the world "God so Loved the World" - the lost world - that HE gave His only begotten Son -- to be the sin offering, the atoning sacrifice - the substitutionary atoning sacrifice "for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins of the whole world"

He loved the world solely because it was after all his creation and his name was placarded all over it. If man fell and Satan showed that he was instrumental in man's fall, as scripture declares Satan to be the one who had power over death (Hebrews 2:14), then Satan would have won the Great controversy. You being a Seven Day Adventist should know about the Great Controversy between God and Satan, right?

under the Old Covenant - God says "as long as you are sinless - you live" - and that was the condition Adam had - but then ... Adam sinned. Still that was the condition that all the children of Adam had as well - such that Romans 3:19-21 took over for mankind from the fall of Adam onward - ALL the WORLD held accountable.

Thank you for testifying to this pertinent fact and in that regard you agree that Abraham and all the prophets of old had failed to live sinlessly, which required the sinless soul redeemer to come and save them. This means that Grace had NOT been entered into the clauses of the old covenantal agreement, because man was determined to have broken it, when all those saints were tested under the justification of works.

That is why under the high priest Joshua no one was was found Justified by their own works and this is evident, when considering the accusations that Satan made against the high priest, under the old levitical priesthood, who was supposed to be the sinless model.

Read up on it..........

Zechariah 3:1-5
1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

3Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”

Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”

5Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.

Notice that the Angel of Yahweh's presence never defends Joshua against Satan's accusations, rather he confirms the accusations of Satan by saying to "take off his filthy clothes", I alone will take away your sin and put saintly garments on you. Notice also that the clean turban on Joshua's head points to the Christ to come and his never ending Melchizedek Kingly Priesthood, that is the office of the sinless Joshua (Jesus) to come. The sinless Joshua come is Jesus Christ. At this prophetic time of the cross when Jesus said it is finished, Satan's accusations are rendered to no avail as the Great controversy is ended at the cross and what God had pledged in the Garden of Eden has come to be fulfilled in Christ.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

Romans 5 shows that Christ died for the ungodly, yet the new covenantal agreement was solely tied in context that warranted God to pour out his Grace upon those who are conditionally bound by the blood contract.

How was God's love which is tied to his outpouring of Grace applied to the new blood contract?

God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. In this regard Grace came through one man, applied by the Spirit of God on Pentecost. This is the saving Grace of Holy Ghost reign, that was not available to Abraham and neither any of the old covenant saints, who had fell under the man Adam, who had sinned and brought all under God's condemnation.

Read Romans 5 entirely and quote it please, so that others can understand the context.....

Romans 5:1517
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

These versus emphatically and clearly declare that Abraham and the Old Testament saints lived under the condemnation of God because of Adam. The gift that followed, meaning came, is the Grace of God poured out by his Spirit and which warranted/justified God to do so, whereas before he could not, because Satan's accusations had still power over man and the righteouesness of God prevented him from outpouring his Grace, until Christ finished the work on the cross at Calvary that was declared by God in the Garden (Genesis 3:15), to warrant the outpouring, according to Peter's quotation of Joel in the Acts of the apostles.

God so loved the world, in so much the love is conditionally attached to his Son's blood sacrifice and sinless kingly priesthood of Melchizedek.

Are you saying that God continues to love those who have been preached Christ and have rejected him wilfully, or those that have no blood contract with God through his only begotten Son?

God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. This is not a western expressive statement, it is a Semitic one, that is, it would be like saying that God has provided salvation and the rest is up to humanity to embrace it with both hands. Failure to embrace the salvation path through the cross continues to place the person under God's condemnation and under Satan's accusations. Think of Satan as a prosecutor and God as the almighty judge who is bound by his righteousness. God loves his creation, after all it is his name placarded on it and his name is to be glorified and in this regard no matter how much God loves all the world, he will undoubtably be forced to kill most of it and to date he has done just that. Many who have not entered into the blood contract have been been killed. Even those who have been called are in danger of having their contracts torn and to be jotted out of the book of life.

Vigilance, that is to be watchful as Jesus would warn his sheep, is essential to abiding by the conditional terms of the blood contract.

 

[BobRyan]

He loved the world solely because it was after all his creation and his name was placarded all over it. If man fell and Satan showed that he was instrumental in man's fall, as scripture declares Satan to be the one who had power over death (Hebrews 2:14), then Satan would have won the Great controversy. You being a Seven Day Adventist should know about the Great Controversy between God and Satan, right?

Indeed I should know about that. "God is Love" - that is the signature difference between God's government and Satan's. "God so Loved the lost world that He gave..." -- not merely "out of some other selfish motive" but out of true love. Remember God "could have made things any other way He wished". God was not "taken by surprise".

Thank you for testifying to this pertinent fact and in that regard you agree that Abraham and all the prophets of old had failed to live sinlessly

errr...um... you have no quote at all from me saying that fallen mankind "lived without ever sinning". Not true of Adam... not true of Paul. You seem to be "discovering" that a false accusation was..."false" just then.

This means that Grace had NOT been entered into the clauses of the old covenantal agreement

The terms of the Old Covenant - as given to Adam did not include "and if you sin - I will forgive so no worries".

But once Adam fell - he was immediately covered by Grace, offered the Gospel - engaged in animal sacrifices pointing to the day that the promise to die for his sins would be fulfilled. We look BACK in time - to the unseen events of Christ's life - Adam looked FORWARD in time to the unseen events of Christ. (Aside from the views God gave him of it).

Thus Gen 3 -- the "proto evangel"
and Heb 4:3 "the GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was TO THEM"
Gal 3:5 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" the FATHER of the faithful.
Gal 3 Abraham is not "blessed WITH US" -- rather "WE are blessed WITH Abraham"

 

[BobRyan]

Okay Bob, I've lost you. I no longer see what your point is. The verse in Romans 11 affirms that Jews are the elect with a positive statement, and also by contrasting it with enemies of the gospel. You cant get around it.

The text says the JEWS are the enemies of the Gospel --- it does NOT say "salvation is being an enemy of the Gospel" and it does not say that they have salvation via genetics or ancestry. The strong desire to see them saved for the sake of the fathers - is there -- nothing at all about "saved no matter that they are enemies of the gospel".

Acts 13 -
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.



Matt 23
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.


1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


"There is NO partiality with God" Romans 2:11 serves as context for what comes later.

Romans 2 says the Jew are LOST first .. and then the gentiles. It also says of the believing Jews that they are SAVED first - and then the Gentiles.

You are trying to get the term "loved" to mean saved. And I keep pointing out - that does not work. John 3:16

God loves all the lost - and that includes the unbelieving Jews - but being the enemy of God is not how one gets to heaven. There is not going to be some special place in heaven for the "Enemies of God that only chose to fight the Gospel" -- no matter what their DNA. Christ told the Jews in Matt 12 that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven.

 

[bugkiller]

The no-Gospel and all-lost idea for the OT - does not survive Heb 4:2 "We have had the Gospel preached to US just as THEY also"

Does not survive Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
Does not survive Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel" in all of time.
Does not survive Heb 11 - the saints of the OT held up as models for NT saints - as even Noah is said to have "pursued righteousness which is by faith" - and that the OT saints were pleasing to God
Does not survive Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glorified form - BEFORE the cross.
Does not survive John 8 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad"
Does not survive 1 Peter 1 - where we find that the OT Bible writers were shown the "sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

You've yet to identify what it is you're calling the Gospel.

bugkiller