If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

"God so LOVED the World that He GAVE His only begotten Son" -- does not mean "the entire world is saved" though - the entire world is Loved by God so much that God gave his Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The grace you talk about isn't the same grace offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son Jesus the Christ.

Your proof text of Mat 17 doesn't prove salvation nor that those were saved as in redeemed because no one was redeemed at that time.

bugkiller

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"

No sir it isn't. You promote the law (is grace) and preached to Abraham contrary to Moses. The Gospel preached to Abraham was the promise of a Redeemer and he believed.

bugkiller

"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

 

[bugkiller]

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"



"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Get real dude.

bugkiller

 

[Berean777]

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"



"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

It was a future vision that showed the glorified Christ and with him Moses and Elijah who are symbols of the two anointed.

Here is the verse......

Matthew 17:9
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Jesus points to two important details regarding the appearance of the transfigured Christ standing with Moses and Elijah, that they are to tell no man of the vision, until after the Lord is risen in the transfigured/glorified form. So what the disciples saw was a future vision, pointing to after Christ's resurrection in the glorified form.

This also means that Grace was poured upon Moses and Elijah, together with the apostles after Christ was raised.

Hebrews 11:39-40
39And these (old testament prophets) all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Meowzltov]

"God so LOVED the World that He GAVE His only begotten Son" -- does not mean "the entire world is saved" though - the entire world is Loved by God so much that God gave his Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

Non sequitor. I didn't say that the entire world is saved. Please reply to what I actually said:

Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs​

 

[BobRyan]

Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

"God so LOVED the World that He GAVE His only begotten Son" -- does not mean "the entire world is saved" though - the entire world is Loved by God so much that God gave his Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

Non sequitor.

Wishful thinking --

I didn't say that the entire world is saved.

I didn't say that you did.

My claim is that your "loved = saved" speculation in Romans 11 does not survive John 3:16.

The point remains.

I have just told you that "loved" means the same thing in both places (Where the two places in this example includes Romans 11:28) -- we call that "exegesis".

 

[BobRyan]

Abraham''s faith alone before the cross did not put him under Grace. This was the case for all Israelites living during the old covenant age. That is why they waited in their graves for the Messiah to come and to put them under Grace.

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The grace you talk about isn't the same grace offered by God the Father thru His only begotten Son Jesus the Christ.

Your proof text of Mat 17 doesn't prove salvation nor that those were saved as in redeemed because no one was redeemed at that time.

bugkiller

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"

No sir it isn't. You promote the law (is grace) and preached to Abraham contrary to Moses. The Gospel preached to Abraham was the promise of a Redeemer and he believed.

bugkiller

"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

It was a future vision that showed the glorified Christ and with him Moses and Elijah who are symbols of the two anointed.

On the contrary - Moses and Elijah were there in person. Before the Cross. Nothing at all in it of "Future" mentioned. Christ was really there - so also Moses and Elijah.

There is no such thing in all of the Bible as a real person standing next to you and then 2 other people show up - but they are not really there.

That would be extreme eisegesis to insert such a novel idea into the text. Not exegesis at all.

 

[Meowzltov]

I have just told you that "loved" means the same thing in both places (Where the two places in this example includes Romans 11:28) -- we call that "exegesis".

It doesn't compare. In your verse, it specifies that those who believe in him (although it doesn't say "only them") shall not perish but have everlasting life. In MY verse, it says that those who are enemies of the gospel are the elect (although again it doesn't say "only those people").

Would you like to try again? Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Hint: the key word is not loved, but election.

 

[bugkiller]

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

Your argument is "with the text"



"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10
"The Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I want the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.



On the contrary - Moses and Elijah were there in person. Before the Cross. Nothing at all in it of "Future" mentioned. Christ was really there - so also Moses and Elijah.

There is no such thing in all of the Bible as a real person standing next to you and then 2 other people show up - but they are not really there.

That would be extreme eisegesis to insert such a novel idea into the text. Not exegesis at all.

I wish you would really make up your mind what you want. You disregard way to much of the Bible to say you want it.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Tell me YOUR interpretation of Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

"God so LOVED the World that He GAVE His only begotten Son" -- does not mean "the entire world is saved" though - the entire world is Loved by God so much that God gave his Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4.

Non sequitor.

Wishful thinking --

I didn't say that the entire world is saved.

I didn't say that you did.

My claim is that your "loved = saved" speculation in Romans 11 does not survive John 3:16.

The point remains.

I have just told you that "loved" means the same thing in both places (Where the two places in this example includes Romans 11:28) -- we call that "exegesis".

It doesn't compare. In your verse, it specifies that those who believe in him (although it doesn't say "only them") shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Indeed - but FIRST it says "God so LOVED the World" --- the "Lost World".

The fact that He "So Loved" them did not mean that they were "all saved" -- and everyone pretty much agrees to that basic Bible detail. These are statements by explicit text - and you are trying to draw from extreme inference a meaning that does not survive the text.

In MY verse, it says that those who are enemies of the gospel are the elect (although again it doesn't say "only those people").

"They are beloved" -- This is not the Calvinist concept of "elect"

Rom 11
"28 From the standpoint of the Gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers."

There is only one way to heaven and that is the ONE "Gospel" which is why in Gal 1:6-9 Paul condemns any other Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

I wish you would really make up your mind what you want. You disregard way to much of the Bible to say you want it.
bugkiller

The depth of bible details included in your post could easily .... "exist"... were you to allow it.

 

[Berean777]

That is not true.

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in glorified form in Matt 17 - BEFORE the Cross - while it is Peter, James and John that were face-down in the dust.

It is Enoch, Seth, Noah, Moses and Abraham in Heb 11 - hold up before NT saints - as the models that we are to follow.

There is no such thing as Enoch, Moses, Elijah -- in heaven but "not through grace" -- that would be "another gospel".

"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.



"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

When you repeat on saying that Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8), you are confusing the definition of Grace.

Yes Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord, but Noah was not offered Grace before the cross of Christ, so in this regard we need to define what Grace is within the context of the salvation cross.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:7
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why itsays:
“When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Grace is within the context of the atoning sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, because the blood of sheep and goats could never put a believer under God's Grace. So Grace was a gift upon all of humanity and the gift came as follows.....

John 3:16-17
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

So God's gift is solely tied to the pouring out of Grace upon all of humanity, who would abide in the beloved and only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Was there a Grace/gift for salvation that's was fashioned by God outside of the offering of the Son?

Absolutely not! If Grace was poured upon those who were by faith obedient to God, then it would not be Grace but works, because having Grace poured based on one's faith is works. Grace however is not dependent on what we do or what we have done, rather it is an unmerited gift that God has put on offer by the sacrifice of his Son.

Romans 1:2-6
Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The author of Romans even highlights the fact that Elijah who appealed to God to save Israel of the old covenant was given a future prophesy that would be tied to the apostles present time, that is, after the cross. This present time was when Christ was glorified was shown in the prophetic vision on the mount of transfiguration. Old covenant saints had not been offered Grace within the context of salvation and that only in the present time of the apostles writings in Romans, that Grace was available, otherwise if it was not through Christ, then it would not be Grace.

Hebrews 11:39
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,

Now that we have clearly defined God's Grace within the context of the salvation cross of Christ, we can address the point of whether Elijah, Moses and Enoch were in heaven when the apostles saw what was a future vision on mount of transfiguration, pointing to post Calvary.

Had anyone gone to heaven before Jesus?

Absolutely not! Scripture testifies of this.......

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

When you make a statement to allow the text to speak for itself, then you need to harmonise all the text. This does not mean reading into the text what you believe, because what you or I believe must be tied to the testimonies of scripture, without anyone of us bringing our biased opinions into play.

The old covenant commandments and ordinances that were tied to the Jewish work practices, in demonstrating their faith were not Grace and did not offer salvation. In this regard obedience to all the law is tied to Grace and if Grace then we should remain in Christ, for our Christian belief is that Christ's righteousness alone is imputed onto our accounts and is the only justification for God to pour out his Grace.

Is there Grace outside of Christ?

Absolutely not, because there would be no justification for God to pour out his Grace.

Was there Grace poured before the cross of Christ?

Absolutely not, because salvation did not come by what we do or believe in by faith. Abraham was counted as being faithful, yet h was not saved until Christ came to raise him up (Matthew 27:52-53), for Grace is a gift that is completely independent of our person and is unwarranted by a person's actions.

 

[Berean777]

If you love me, then obey my commandments. This statement is saying if you abide in Christ and to follow in His footsteps and to obey His teachings, then you are obeying all of the commandments of God. Scripture states that if you love the Son, then you are also loved by the Father, which means that you are justified for the out pouring of Grace.

Old covenant believers did not have this gift and therefore required obedience to be outwardly demonstrated according to customary Jewish practices, that were solely tied to one's works. Abraham was justified by faith, but was saved by Christ/Grace. Abraham was not saved by his faith, rather he just like all the old covenant believers needed to wait in their LOTs/graves until Christ came and set them free (Ephesians 4:8)

 

[BobRyan]

Moses was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Elijah was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Enoch was saved in the OT - was taken directly to heaven while still living - fully saved... pre-cross.
All the saints of Heb 11 - saved in the OT - fully saved... pre-cross.

But most of the saints then - and the saints after the cross... died and did not then experience the resurrection that will happen at the 2nd coming. So even though they were all saved during their own life times - they all wait for the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.

When you repeat on saying that Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8), you are confusing the definition of Grace.

Yes Noah found favour in the eyes of the Lord, but Noah was not offered Grace before the cross of Christ

May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.

And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one

Absolutely not! If Grace was poured upon those who were by faith obedient to God, then it would not be Grace

Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.

But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"


Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.

By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.

 

[Berean777]

Moses was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Elijah was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Enoch was saved in the OT - was taken directly to heaven while still living - fully saved... pre-cross.
All the saints of Heb 11 - saved in the OT - fully saved... pre-cross.

But most of the saints then - and the saints after the cross... died and did not then experience the resurrection that will happen at the 2nd coming. So even though they were all saved during their own life times - they all wait for the 2nd coming.

No that is not true, the old covenant saints as I previously explained in posts #912 and #913 were not saved because of what they did or believed, rather they placed all their hopes of being saved when Messiah did come. This means that they waited in their graves and were looking to the future for Christ's 1st coming and not his second coming.

Well the facts stand that Christ did come and he did salvage them as declared in Matthew 27:52-53 and.........

1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient,

Remembering that Old Covenant saints were not sinless and were sometimes disobedient, for all have been found to have fallen short of the law of works and in this regard were bailed out from death, by the ransom that God paid on the cross at Calvary.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

The statement "this has now been witnessed to at the proper time", is within the context of salvation through the outpouring of Grace.

So in this regard Old Testament saints could not go to heaven yet until the forerunner to the resurrection Christ Jesus was 1st raised as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:23, which is the order of the resurrection. Scripture also states within the context of recieving one's eternal inheritance, that all men are destined to die once, then judgment (Hebrews 9:27). There cannot be anyone that has not died yet to be in heaven, for Paul teaches that the corruptible must put on incorruption. The 1st man was terrestrial which is earthy, the 2nd man is the heavenly as lord of heaven. A person who has terrestrial form cannot dwell in a place that requires the heavenly post resurrection form. For someone to put on the heavenly form, then according to the witnesses/testator mentioned in Hebrews 9:17, they need to die, otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

It seems evident that the prophets of old neither were saved/salvaged from death, by their faith/works, neither were they allowed to enter into heaven, until Messiah came the 1st time to raise them up in fulfilment to Ezekiel 37:10-14 (house of old covenant Israel).

Daniel who is a later prophet was told that he would die and is to wait in his lot/grave until Messiah came the 1st time.

Daniel 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel rested, meaning died and waited in his lot/grave until the end of days. So when we're the end of days for the Old Covenant believers from Abraham and onwards?

1 Peter 1:19-20
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The context of last times is pointing to the house of Israel, the old covenant saints, who had placed all their hopes on the Messiah to come as the soul redeemer.

Is there salvation outside of the soul redeemer Christ Jesus?

Absolutely not!

 

[Berean777]

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.



May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.

And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one



Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.

But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"


Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.

By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.

You quoted Hebrews 11:7 and placed your own interpretation of salvation (Grace) context to what these old covenant saints had been promised. Yet you have left out the true context explained by the apostolic author who in later versus and on two occassions would contrast the old covenant righteousness by faith/works to the new covenant righteousness in Christ. There was two gospels and two covenants and the new covenant in Christ replaced the old, which was a promise solely based on the SEED OF PROMISE Christ Jesus who would come to set all free from spiritual death.

So let us read the true context........

Hebrews 11:13-16
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Well they being the old covenant saints had not recieved the promises of eternal inheritance, that was tied to a better country, that is, an heavenly one. This means that their righteousness was a plea bargain or a pardon from execution, hence they were on death row (Shoel), until Messiah came to then save them, so that by his righteousness (sinless), they could then recieve what was promised.

After all the apostolic writer mentions this twice, if in case a reader missed it the first time.......

Hebrews 11:39-40
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So the righteousness of Noah, Abraham and the rest of the old covenant saints was an earthly righteousness tied to hope of receiving the promise of a heavenly righteousness that would come from heaven, to be bestowed upon them, in order for them to recieve the eternal inheritance that was promised to them.

The heavenly promise was tied to the seed of promise Christ Jesus, for he is the heavenly that descended and then ascended, in order for all in the last days of the old covenant, for all to receive the promise and not before.

Hebrews 11:18
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

So Isaac was a symbol/figure of the Son of righteousness Christ Jesus, who God was able to raise up as the SEED OF PROMISE, that through Christ it was possible for God to justify the outpouring of his Grace and in this regard the old covenant of death was annulled.

The old covenant gospel was an earthly one tied to an earthly righteousness, that was associated with faith by works. The new gospel of Jesus Christ is in context to the heavenly country, one that is tied to the heavenly righteousness, which is faith by Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-10
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things

All things could not have been filled up by the measure of God's Grace, before the heavenly Christ who descended, to then ascend up far above all heavens, after his resurrection.

If the earthly righteousness of the old covenant saints made it possible for them to receive their eternal inheritance, to then proceed to heaven without Christ, then this would not necessitate Christ to come in the first place, because those who by their own righteousness (faith by works), had already been merited God's Grace in the absence of the cross and in this regard they would have already recieved the promise before the cross. Scripture clearly states that the promise to the heavenly eternal inheritance was NOT received by any old covenant saint. Therefore no old covenant saint (Elijah, Moses, Enoch, Abraham) could go to heaven before the cross of Christ as stated in John 3:13.

 

[bugkiller]

The depth of bible details included in your post could easily .... "exist"... were you to allow it.

It really does you no good for anyone but those who agree with your deluded opinion to discuss the Bible. You've been presented and confronted with Bible for years. You continue to refuse to believe the Bible when it suits you.

Romans 6 and 7 both show plainly Christians are dead to the law and the law is dead. The dead do nothing including keeping of the law. The new man isn't born under the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Moses was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Elijah was saved in the OT - and stands in glorified form with Christ in Matt 17 - fully saved... pre-cross.
Enoch was saved in the OT - was taken directly to heaven while still living - fully saved... pre-cross.
All the saints of Heb 11 - saved in the OT - fully saved... pre-cross.

But most of the saints then - and the saints after the cross... died and did not then experience the resurrection that will happen at the 2nd coming. So even though they were all saved during their own life times - they all wait for the 2nd coming.

That is unfound and unsupportable opinion.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

OT - Righteousness by Faith.

Heb 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

"Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD" - Gen 6:8

Moses and Elijah - stand WITH Christ in Matt 17 - in glorified form - while the disciples are face down in the dust.



May we "quote you" on that --- because "you" are the only source for such a statement.

And that is the problem with your doctrine at that point.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gal 1:6-9 -- there are not TWO Gospels -- but rather ... just one



Here "again" - you simply "quote you" -- and that sort of "source" for an infallible text does not go very far.

But Romans 2 does go a long way.
And so also Christ's words in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"


Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

OK, I'll let you have your salvation by works, if you wish. You can have my wages. I've accepted God's free gift. Guess what? You won't have the right to eat from the Tree of Life, causin' ya don't keep the whole law. The argument is based on your teaching.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Grace given to ALL mankind because God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" --- not just the saints.

By contrast to the TWO sinners - translated directly to heaven in the OT -- not even ONE such case in the NT.

Its evident here you don't believe God convicts anyone, causin' yas continued effort to do so.

bugkiller