If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Meowzltov]

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved

Meaning that God has hardened the hearts of the Jews [for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles], not that they are themselves responsible for rejecting the gospel. For THIS reason they are saved despite the fact that the do not accept the gospel.

 

[Berean777]

Meaning that God has hardened the hearts of the Jews [for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles], not that they are themselves responsible for rejecting the gospel. For THIS reason they are saved despite the fact that the do not accept the gospel.

How is a Jew without Christ saved? You seem to imply that they are saved even if they do not accept Jesus Christ nor his Gospel of salvation.

It would be a grave error to deny Christ, especially when salvation and the gospel was preached to the Jews first, then to the gentiles. Therefore the Jews had the first opportunity to accept Messiah and to say blessed is he who came in the name of the Lord.

Remembering when Jesus sent his disciples into twos and told them the following.....

Luke 10
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-twoa others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5“When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8“When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you.9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

Jesus sent his disciples to the Jewish towns and villages, to deliver his Kingdom come gospel message. Jesus also gave the Jews a conditional ultimatum, that is, to accept his Kingdom come gospel message or to burn in hell, like Sodom.

I would think about what Jesus said and to also reflect upon what @BobRyan wrote in post #838.

 

[Berean777]

The practice of the law is a topic of debate and controversy for the ages where those born again of the spirit struggle with there position of remaining in the world and in the flesh. But if they/we are to take to heart, not only the law, but the fact that the old man of the flesh has died and that it is no longer we who live but Christ...we have no argument. It is finished.

So then, if we have not taken the truth to heart in full, are we right to turn back to the law, or become respecters of the law as opposed to respecters of the spirit of Christ living within us? No...for to do so, is to deny Christ.

Therefore, we let the dead bury the dead, and following Christ we press on.

Beautifully said! Thankyou.

 

[Meowzltov]

How is a Jew without Christ saved? You seem to imply that they are saved even if they do not accept Jesus Christ nor his Gospel of salvation.

Don't argue with me about it. Argue with St. Paul in Romans 11.

 

[BobRyan]

Don't argue with me about it. Argue with St. Paul in Romans 11.

Romans 11 says that believing Gentiles + believing Jews = "All Israel".

In Romans 2 - Paul flatly condemns the idea that Jews are saved even if they reject the Gospel. The Jews were apparently arguing that God was locked into some sort of "contract" and He could not get out of it - they would be saved no matter that they were in rebellion - and in Romans 2 Paul says that simply being a Jew - was not enough. He says that born again gentiles who obey rather than live in rebellion -- would be counted as Jews. And Jews in rebellion would be counted as Gentiles -- on that future day of judgment "when according to My Gospel God will judge" Rom 2:16

 

[BobRyan]

Meaning that God has hardened the hearts of the Jews [for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles], not that they are themselves responsible for rejecting the gospel. For THIS reason they are saved despite the fact that the do not accept the gospel.

Paul says they are restored "IF they do not continue in unbelief" Rom 11 -- your model claims they are "saved if they continue in unbelief as well" and that is not what the text says. NOR does the text say that "in falling they are saved because falling benefits gentiles in some way" -- neither of those ideas are found in the text of Romans 11.

 

[Meowzltov]

Romans 11 says that believing Gentiles + believing Jews = "All Israel".

No it doesn't. In Romans 11, Paul consistantly refers to unbelieving Jews as Israel. Nice try.

 

[Meowzltov]

Paul says they are restored "IF they do not continue in unbelief" Rom 11 -- your model claims they are "saved if they continue in unbelief as well" and that is not what the text says. NOR does the text say that "in falling they are saved because falling benefits gentiles in some way" -- neither of those ideas are found in the text of Romans 11.

THE VERSE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF: As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake [aka unbelievers]; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs [aka they are saved]

 

[Berean777]

Don't argue with me about it. Argue with St. Paul in Romans 11.

Who is arguing here?

For Paul to say what you are implying he is saying, is the concept and idea of anti-gospel salvation message for the unbelieving Jews. If you take all of Paul's writings, then you will only discover a pro-gospel message to Jews, Greeks and Gentiles.

The labelling continues, when you unfairly and wrongly called me anti-Judaism in a previous post and now you are also unwittingly labelling Paul a hypocrite, who peddled in both pro-gospel and in also anti-gospel salvation messages, when it suited him. This is the false charge that you have put upon Paul, by implying that he preached an anti-gospel salvation message to another special group. If there is a person peddling in anti-gospel salvation message, then what does scripture say in regards to that person?

2 John 1:7-11
7I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the anti-christ. 8Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

 

[Berean777]

What a few don't understand is that the old covenant promise was a conditional promise that was solely based on believing on the SEED of promise Jesus Christ.

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

So if we are correctly interpreting Paul, then we must consider all his writings and not to just read into certain versus what we want to impose.

 

[Berean777]

The messianic movement has always considered Paul a false apostle when it suited them and quote him out of context to support their law based salvation gospel (anti-gospel).

Here is an excerpt from the following web link....

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostle-Paul-false-prophet.html

The theory that the apostle Paul was a false prophet and not a true follower of Christ is usually put forth by those of theHebrew roots movement persuasion, among others. They believe Christians should submit to the Old Testament Law, but Paul clearly disagrees with them, proclaiming that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25;Ephesians 2:15), but the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). Rather than submitting to God’s Word, the Hebrew roots movement simply dismisses Paul altogether and claims that Paul was a false apostle and that his writings should not be in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

The messianic movement has always considered Paul a false apostle when it suited them

I would be very surprised if OH considered Paul a false prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

THE VERSE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF: As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake [aka unbelievers]; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs [aka they are saved]

Loved does not mean saved. In Matt 23 we see that spelled out -

Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

In some forms of Calvinism == God only saves those whom He loves - and the lost, He simply does not love. But I don't think you or I can claim Calvinism.

 

[BobRyan]

No it doesn't. In Romans 11, Paul consistantly refers to unbelieving Jews as Israel. Nice try.

Paul said -- "And in this way" all Israel will be saved. Rom 11 - and what was that "way" that is described in Romans 11? answer -- it is the way of the Gospel - the Gospel where both Jews and Gentiles are saved -

"Salvation to he who chooses only rebellion" salvation to "trees with bad fruit" - is a Gospel - not in the Bible.

And as the context for that - Romans 9 "they are NOT all Israel who are children of the flesh".
Rom 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Rom 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

NIV-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved

 

[Berean777]

I would be very surprised if OH considered Paul a false prophet.

Without having to resort to personal opinion and labellings, my post objectively identifies the aspect of an anti-gospel salvation message, that is proclaimed by the Hebrew roots Movement who state: Mosaic Law for the Jews and Jesus Christ for the gentiles. It begs belief that some say Jesus Christ came for only the Gentiles, when he in fact according to scriptures firstly came to his own and they rejected him.

As for OH she says that she is Catholic and Catholics have a pro-goapel salvation message. I believe that she needed correction and when time comes she will reflect and correct herself.

 

[Berean777]

Paul said -- "And in this way" all Israel will be saved. Rom 11 - and what was that "way" that is described in Romans 11? answer -- it is the way of the Gospel - the Gospel where both Jews and Gentiles are saved -

"Salvation to he who chooses only rebellion" salvation to "trees with bad fruit" - is a Gospel - not in the Bible.

And as the context for that - Romans 9 "they are NOT all Israel who are children of the flesh".
Rom 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Rom 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

NIV-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved

Just based on the last two versus that you have quoted, Paul identifies the New spiritual Israel of God as being the full number of the Gentiles and a remnant of the natural branches who also come by Grace through the promised SEED Jesus Christ

 

[Berean777]

You see the Hebrew roots movement and other crypto movements within the main denominations and others are incorrectly quoting Paul in one breath in order to justify their anti-gospel salvation message, but deep down no matter how many versus that Paul conveys contrary to their position, they will continually ignore, because deep down they regard him as a false teacher and charge him as a traitor to the nationalistic Jewish identity, because he went over to the other side (gentiles). They must have thought back then and even now today "how dare he do this to his own people".

 

[Berean777]

It takes Assyrians to know how the Hebrew Movement thinks and how it will behave to others who try to correct it. You see Jewish thinking requires conversion from within. It can only be successful if it is a nationalistic rally, that is headed by all Rabbis. Because the national identity is directly tied to the Judaic religion. Therefore they believe that if they loose the Judaic religion then they loose their Jewish identity.

Assyrians were in the same boat, until they embraced Christianity as part of their new identity. At the time the Assyrians were a broken people, far from their emperial days and when they heard the apostle Peter preach to them through the messenger that he had sent in Babylon Iraq, they saw that they needed from a nationalistic point of view to renew their dying race through a life line that the Jewish apostles gave them. In their endevour they became in their time champions of the Christian religion and rallied amongst themselves. This is exactly what the Jews require today, for their conversion.

There were Christian Jews who tried this approach during World War 2, but that didn't work and some Jews thought it was pathetic to even contemplate embracing Christianity.

What was missing from the Jewish movement to convert Jews to Christ was the rallying call by the head rabinical authority. For Jews to convert to Christ they must be put in a hard place and then through their rabinical authority to rally the people to embrace Christianity by taking ownership of it as the 11th hour workmen. This re-identification must be done in the same way the Assyrians did it back then almost 2000 years ago as the first church in Odessa.

The nationalistic Jewish rise to power is what God has planned for their conversion, for they must rise high above their peers, just like the Assyrians were in their time, before they are brought down to the realisation that they must reidentity their Jewish identity with Christ by taking ownership of Christianity as their own. This is the only way their conversion will be through a collective body and on a nationalistic level. As the saying goes what goes up must come down.

Jewish rise to power on a nationalistic level and economic global power is playing directly in Christ's hands and soon they will loose everything like the Assyrians the weaklings did.

This is who the Jews are, they must face their own worst fears and to come as broken people's, for them to reidentity themselves through the new found Christian religion. In this respect the law may be shown to be the precursor to the curse that awaits their nation.

It is sad to see tribulation before salvation but this is the way it is and how the scriptures have highlighted as a necessity. The great tribulation for the Jewish nation will come upon them,
then they shall turn to Christ, after their rabinical authority rallies their Jewish people's.

Listen to how Joel poetically puts it...

Joel 2:12-17
Rend Your Heart

12“Even now,” declares the Lord,

“return to me with all your heart,

with fasting and weeping and mourning.”

13Rend your heart

and not your garments.

Return to the Lord your God,

for he is gracious and compassionate,

slow to anger and abounding in love,

and he relents from sending calamity.

14Who knows? He may turn and relent

and leave behind a blessing—

grain offerings and drink offerings

for the Lord your God.

15Blow the trumpet in Zion,

declare a holy fast,

call a sacred assembly.

16Gather the people,

consecrate the assembly;

bring together the elders,

gather the children,

those nursing at the breast.

Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

17Let the priests, who minister before the Lord,

weep between the portico and the altar.

Let them say, “Spare your people,Lord.

Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,

a byword among the nations.

Why should they say among the peoples,

‘Where is their God?’ ”

As Jesus would say the first to have been preached Christ will be the last to accept Christ as a nation and to turn and to rend their hearts to him, by being the 11th hour workmen.

So in this regard let us hold out hope for the sons of Jacob, for their time of great tribulation is to come, in order for them to recieve the blessings and promise through the SEED of promise Jesus Christ.

 

[Meowzltov]

wrongly called me anti-Judaism

Again, I ask you, are you saying you are pro-Judaism?

 

[Meowzltov]

Loved does not mean saved.

Elected means saved.