If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[bugkiller]

Not true -- at all



and then the verse carefully avoided by so many that quote Gal 3:6.
Gal 3
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”

What is this Gospel? Is it the law? How when it came after Abraham? Moses clearly states the law wasn't given to Abraham in Deut 3.

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the Gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

that's right folks - the Gospel preached to Abraham is the one we have with us today - because there is only ONE.

Not only that but all those who claim to be Christians today - can "be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham"


Gal 3
if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

===========================================
So then all the lost remain under the tutor - under the condemnation of the law - until faith comes. But once faith comes - they are "baptized into Christ" and then the law no longer serves the role of condemning the sinner to hell - but rather for the saint that SAME law -- the Jer 31:31-33 LAW is "Written on the heart and mind" as even Heb 8:6-10 clearly states.

Yes the lost are under the tutor. Christians aren't the lost. What I call religious Christians are though.

bugkiller

 

[Open Heart]

What is this Gospel? Is it the law? How when it came after Abraham? Moses clearly states the law wasn't given to Abraham in Deut 3.Yes the lost are under the tutor. Christians aren't the lost. What I call religious Christians are though.

bugkiller

Mosaic Law is a separate covenant, but obeying God IS part of the New Covenant. Just ask yourself the question, can we disobey God? Therefore for those Jews who observe the Mosaic Law, their obedience is part of the New Covenant. That's why in Acts 21 you hear of the thousands of new Jewish believers who are all zealous for Torah.

 

[Berean777]

Obedience to Christ and staying in him, is obeying all the law. The law can only be obeyed if one stays in Christ. How one obeys the law is through worship in the Spirit, because other old covenant ways associated with temple worship and sacrificial customs and ordinances were no longer considered the true worship according to Jesus, when he highlighted these facts to the Samaritan woman at the well.

So there is a right way to obey the commandments and to love God and the wrong way through the old external Jewish way, which is no longer the correct way, rather the correct way is inwardly in the heart. That is why it is written God will replace the heart of stone with the heart of flesh, where stone is associated with the ordinance based Mosaic law system.

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Again one heart and this new heart requires the removal of the old Jewish heart of stone pointing to the old external ways of worship.

You can't observe the law externally anymore, because according to God and the Holy Spirit of God, it has no application in relation to obedience, rather continuing in the heart of stone would be considered disobedience and rebelliousness if after all God has done, people started to adapt it within the context of worship.

Heart of stone related to the commandments or the letter of the law etched on stone has no external application in the Christain walk in the Spirit of God, which makes our hearts of flesh, pointing to inward observances, meaning abiding in Christ is to be lawful inwardly, without needing to display outward ritualistic observances and practices by the application of the heart of stone.

One can continue to observe the sabbath and are free to do so, but these practices no longer are applicable in displaying obedience to the law of God. So it has no religious worship context associated with it as it falls under the heart of stone form of worship.

So is there a Sabbath that we observe within the context of the heart of flesh?

Yes, abiding in the Lord of the Sabbath, dwelling in us, is observance of all the law, in our every day and every second of our lives. Sabbath day lives in us and so God has made every day our rest day. This was what was spoken in Hebrew 4:6-9 in relation to another Sabbath that was to come......

Hebrews 4:6-9
6Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

You see the old covenant heart of stone related to outward observances of ordinances related to the Mosaic law etched on stone, associated with the letter of the law administered by the Pharisical priestly system did not give them rest. The rest today as the apostle writes is through inward abiding in the Spirit within the context of the heart of flesh, that God has placed after removing the heart of stone.

Heart of stone has been removed forever, heart of flesh is here to stay as the only true worship requirement in obedience to all the law, Helleluya!

 

[Berean777]

Paul contrasts the Judasiers (Messianics) to the Gentiles in Christ, by highlighting the correct application of the law in ones life long walk by faith.

Romans 2:14
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

You see the heart of stone was a form of outward keeping of the law, associated with ordinances. Paul states: Does the law require works or outward actions? ; He quickly answers his own question by saying, No!

The heart of stone required boastful actions according to the Jewish society and the perfect example is found in "The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector" (Luke 18:9-14)

So as Christains who are indwelled by the Spirit of God, we don't apply outward Jewish actions, related to the old covenant practices, in order to be law abiding citizens of the Kingdom of God. Our application is inwardly in the heart of flesh, where we are being justified as abiding in all the law, because of our inward intrinsic faith and not our outward extrinsic actions.

Paul in Romans 3:27-30, further elaborates that the one God doesn't differentiate between Jews and non Jews, as both are to adhere to the one form of worship, where God justifies both of them by faith alone as far as being law abiding citizens of the Kingdom of God. So you have Paul proclaiming one gospel for both Jews and Gentiles alike.

Romans 3:27-30
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

What concerned Paul in his time were Judasiers who would try and impose their outward practices in keeping of the law, according to the heart of stone. Paul would address these issues ad nauseum.

Paul compares the Judaisers of his time who would not let go of the old customary Jewish outward application of the law, associated with the heart of stone, by giving an example of a wife who has right to remarry only after her husband dies, in that if her husband dies she is released from the law that would otherwise label her as an adulteress. Paul teaches that the faithful Jews in Christ who now are dead to the law, because of what Christ did on the cross, are now married to Christ in place of the Mosaic law. You see before the cross if Jews abided not in the Mosaic old covenant practices to the Jot and tittle of the written law, they would be called transgressors of the law and as a consequence would face punitive punishment according to the legislation set out by the Pharisees. Paul states that since Christ died on the cross, this meant that we are released from the outward practices of the Mosaic law and we serve in a new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the old covenant written code.

So there you have it ladies and gentlemen, the new way replaced the old way and the new heart of flesh replaced the old heart of stone (Mosaic Law). Paul was addressing the Jews and he instructed them to abide in the law in a new way of the Spirit by faith and not the old way of the outward works stipulated by the Pharisaical written code.

Romans 7:1-6
Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

What more can I give my brothers and sisters in Christ to convince them that we abide by inward faith in the law and not by outward works/actions, for our obedience is intrinsically motivated by the heart of flesh, through tabernacling with the Spirit of God and not according to the extrinsically motivated factors, requiring the law to be policed by third parties like the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes.

If I told my brother in Christ that he has not observed a physical Sabbath day in his life and or he ate pork when he shouldn't have, then I am acting out the policed mentality of the old way of the written code and this is definitely not how God justifies us as law abiding citizens of his Kingdom.

in conclusion, we are not Judaisers and should not teach the old ways, if we are to remember what Paul said in Romans 7:1-6, that we are released from the old way/application of the law and married to Christ through the new way/application of abiding in the law. This means that if we have one foot in bed with the old way/application and one foot in bed with the new way/application, then this means we are married to two husbands and in this regard we are double timing spiritual wife, who is committing adultery.

I can not make it any clearer than this brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Shimshon]

Clear as seeing through a murky glass of water.

What Messianic Jews have come to realize that as a Jew, we are called to live out the Torah. And that the prophetic-kingdom promise of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 has revealed to us that the Torah is part of the new covenant: “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33). Moreover, we have come to realize that the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 which exempted Gentiles from circumcision and obligation to the Torah’s Jewish identity markers said nothing at all about exempting Jews from any aspect of the Torah. Since the Jerusalem Council did not address Jews in their ruling, we deduced that they intended Jewish believers to remain faithful to Torah.

You have our Messiah coming to do away with Jews and replaced them with Christians. How is that reconciliation?

 

[Berean777]

Clear as seeing through a murky glass of water.

What Messianic Jews have come to realize that as a Jew, we are called to live out the Torah. And that the prophetic-kingdom promise of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 has revealed to us that the Torah is part of the new covenant: “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33). Moreover, we have come to realize that the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 which exempted Gentiles from circumcision and obligation to the Torah’s Jewish identity markers said nothing at all about exempting Jews from any aspect of the Torah. Since the Jerusalem Council did not address Jews in their ruling, we deduced that they intended Jewish believers to remain faithful to Torah.

You have our Messiah coming to do away with Jews and replaced them with Christians. How is that reconciliation?

Shimshon, please listen, Messiah came to establish a new Jewish nation through him and it was not going to be according to the old covenant Jewish earthly nation. It was not an earthly nation depicted by King David who fought against Goliath with a sling shot, neither was it a sword wielding contest with the Roman enemy, in the case where Peter pulls out a sword in defence of the Lord.

The Jewish Kingdom that Christ established has no genealogical foundation that required a separation between the old Israel and the new Israel in Christ. The Kingdom was spiritually established by peace for the Prince of Peace reigns supreme over his spiritual Kingdom, which is a fenceless city without fortified walls and one that wins over the peoples of all nations, by winning over their minds and hearts to Christ. Now a sword or a physical earthly Kingdom with a standing military and one that is restricted to genealogy is not what this new Jewish nation is about.

Take for example my ancestors the Men of Nineveh who fought against the nations of the world by sword. Once their four kings at the time accepted the preaching of Jonah, they then ceased to become a nation and to this day there are still elements of patriots who want to establish the nation, but it is not going to happen, because as soon as we were spiritually married to God and his Christ, he allowed us to live and be joined to his spiritual Jewish nation, when the apostle Peter sent an envoy to the church in Babylon Iraq, elected together with the Jewish church in Jerusalem. What Peter was trying to establish is the formulea declared in Isaiah 19:25.

I can confidently say that we are to disown our old nationalistic identity once we are in Christ, because we are citizens of a new Jewish nation, established in Christ. If we continue conforming to the ways of the world, how can we say that we are in Christ, it would be like living double lives. If I say I am in Christ and at the same time, say that I am an Assyrian patriot with earthly genealogy mindset, then I would be a crypto Assyrian. Therefore we have to divorce our old nationalistic earthly identity and embrace the new identity in Christ without needing to be cryptic about it, otherwise we would be insincere to ourselves.

Please kindly read what Paul writes to both Jews and Gentiles....

Ephesians 2:1-22
Made Alive in Christ

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Notice Shimshon, that Paul writes that Jew and gentile are both reconciled to Christ, for once they both gratified and craved the ways of the flesh, which was related to their nationalistic genealogical identities, that manifested ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Shimshon when we continue in our nationalistic genealogical identities, according to Paul are continuing in disobedience and the fruit that has shown throughout history to manifest, is malice towards the other groups that are not part of their groups. Christ put a stop to this by establishing this new Jewish nation in him and through him as the Kingly Priest Melchizedek.

So it is not doing away with the Jews by birth and replacing them by Christians, for he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups (Jew and Gentile) one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity (nation) out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

So in conclusion can you see how Christ has established one spiritual nation in himself and so in this respect we are not citizens of the world, who boast in fleshly genealogies, rather we are in the Spirit and boast of Christ. Otherwise if we continue in flesh, then we are lying to ourselves.

 

[Berean777]

So in this regard Jesus Christ is the Law!

 

[ScottA]

Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

==========================

If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -

In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??

First commandment where??

Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.

Unless one understands that the commandments are only preparation for being born [again] of the spirit of God [being made perfect], then the commandments become a stumbling block. But after one is made perfect in the spirit, the preparation of which the commandments served, is past, and they are no longer kept in "practice", but are fulfilled and kept [perfect] for eternity (in Christ). Such a one, is One with God, against whom there is no law or commandments. This is what it means to be "free" in Christ.

Why, then, did Jesus say to keep His commandments? Because He was speaking to those who had not yet been given the Holy Spirit, and were therefore, not born again of the spirit of God (not made anew, not perfected, not One with God).

It is important to know who you are. Are you born again of the spirit of God, having received the Holy Spirit? Have you been made [born] again anew...or not? If you have: "It is finished." If not: "Keep my commandments."

 

[Open Heart]

The law can only be obeyed if one stays in Christ.

If the law is Thou shalt not steal, and some Jewish kid is tempted to steal money out of his mother's purse but resists temptation, he has obeyed the law.

 

[Berean777]

If the law is Thou shalt not steal, and some Jewish kid is tempted to steal money out of his mother's purse but resists temptation, he has obeyed the law.

My posts 803, 804, 806 addresses the issue of obeying the law intrinsically because the Holy Spirit is our wonderful counselor who teaches us to be the walking and breathing law as a testimony of our life long sanctification.

Where as the letter of the written law is extrinsically obeyed, because it is policed by the rabinical authority, just as legislative laws are upheld by police and the courts.

In the case of the Jewish boy who holds back the urge to steal from his mother, This would fit the extrinsic obedience of the law, because of fear of repercussion from his actions, that would result in an anticipated punitive punishment.

In the case of the faithful (Jew or Gentile) in Christ, this thought would not cross his mind, because obedience to the law is intrinsically motivated through love of the Lord and not because of anticipating punishment as a consequence.

So it is similar to a student who is motivated to study because of their intrinsic motivation, in the absence of outside influencing factors. So they become independent life long learners without needing peers to motivate them to study.

Whereas a student who is motivated extrinsically, is influenced by peer group pressure to study, in fear of being singled out from the group.

From a religious context, the Holy Spirit is our guide and counsellor who works in our hearts to internalize the laws intrinsically, without requiring outside influencing factors. This obedience as declared by the prophets of old and the apostles is not something that man can achieve through the old policed system.

In this regard the Spirit makes it possible to do this without requiring policing. That is why Paul writes.......

Romans 2:14
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

If a professing Christian steals, then they abide not in the Spirit and therefore are still counted as disobedient, who are walking after the flesh.

So the obedience to the law is justified by faith alone and the evidence of our obedience to the law, is the sanctifying works of the Spirit manifested in the faithful in Christ.

As born again Christians we are not just observing or obeying the law, rather we are the living testimony of the law, therefore we are the walking and breathing law according to Romans 2:14.

 

[AbbaLove]

You have our Messiah coming to do away with Jews and replaced them with Christians. How is that reconciliation?

Shimshon, please listen ... can you see how Christ has established one spiritual nation in himself and so in this respect we are not citizens of the world, who boast in fleshly genealogies, rather we are in the Spirit and boast of Christ. Otherwise if we continue in flesh, then we are lying to ourselves.

Even born again, Spirit-filled Messianic Jews seem compelled to let it be known that "once a Jew, always a Jew" (e.g. Sid Roth). You have to admit that if your family tree was of Jewish ancestry you too might be reluctant to refer to yourself as a Christian.

Put yourself in their Messianic Jewish shoes and you might see how they could make what seems to be an irrational statement -- "You have our Messiah coming to do away with Jews and replaced with Christians." Such a statement is not really all that irrational within Messianic Judaism when considering all the injustices of "the true universal Church" (Catholicism) for centuries and even the Protestant Reformation when it comes to the prevalence of RT among some mainline Protestant denominations even to this day.

For all the good that Baptists and others have done in bringing Jews to accept Christ Jesus (as Mashiach Yeshua), since say 1950, there still seems to be a fair amount of animosity toward Christianity and Christians in general. However, times are changing now that Messianic Jews (not just Christians) are bringing their fellow brethren to accept Mashiach Yeshua as evident by some great testimonies (e.g. I MET MESSIAH). This Youtube testimony by Mordechai Mottel Baleston has probably garnered more views to date (produced by One For Israel) ... http://www.imetmessiah.com/index.php/about

 

[ScottA]

This Youtube testimony by Mordechai Mottel Baleston has probably garnered more views to date (produced by One For Israel) ... http://www.imetmessiah.com/index.php/about

That is awesome!

The full message of history, places Christ at the apex of God's plans for every nation and people: first to the Jew, then to the gentile - a light unto the gentiles. Isaiah 42:6

 

[AbbaLove]

That is awesome!

The full message of history, places Christ at the apex of God's plans for every nation and people: first to the Jew, then to the gentile - a light unto the gentiles. Isaiah 42:6

After listening to several of these I MET MESSIAH testimonies i couldn't help but appreciate even a deeper spiritual appreciation and love for our Jewish brethren as well as the future of Israel (when Yeshua returns). The list of these Jewish testimonies is continually growing ( http://www.imetmessiah.com/index.php#tm-top-b ). In the last couple of days i've watched close to a dozen of Youtube's playlist of 33 testimonies. ...

Imagine what could happen if all the secular Jews (young and old) living in Tel Aviv started listening to these Jewish testimonies.

​

Zechariah 8:22-23​

22 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.'
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

 

[ScottA]

After listening to several of these I MET MESSIAH testimonies i couldn't help but appreciate even a deeper spiritual appreciation and love for our Jewish brethren as well as the future of Israel (when Yeshua returns). The list of these Jewish testimonies is continually growing ( http://www.imetmessiah.com/index.php#tm-top-b ). In the last couple of days i've watched close to a dozen of Youtube's playlist of 33 testimonies. ...

Imagine what could happen if all the secular Jews (young and old) living in Tel Aviv started listening to these Jewish testimonies.

​

Zechariah 8:22-23​

22 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.'
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

Such a movement would be [is] wonderful!

However, in keeping with the topic: It is important to carry that movement out to an understanding of the fulfillment that is meant for these "times of the gentiles." In picking up the gospel message (to the gentiles), Paul pressed on [Philippians 3:12] and built upon the foundation of the elementary principles of Christ [Hebrews 6:1] explaining that Christ's return is NOT some future group event as taught by the teachings of men, but comes to "each one in his own order" [1 Corinthians 15:23] over the entire course of these times. This too, is the message to the Jew as well as to the gentile.

 

[Berean777]

Even born again, Spirit-filled Messianic Jews seem compelled to let it be known that "once a Jew, always a Jew" (e.g. Sid Roth). You have to admit that if your family tree was of Jewish ancestry you too might be reluctant to refer to yourself as a Christian.

Put yourself in their Messianic Jewish shoes and you might see how they could make what seems to be an irrational statement -- "You have our Messiah coming to do away with Jews and replaced with Christians." Such a statement is not really all that irrational within Messianic Judaism when considering all the injustices of "the true universal Church" (Catholicism) for centuries and even the Protestant Reformation when it comes to the prevalence of RT among some mainline Protestant denominations even to this day.

For all the good that Baptists and others have done in bringing Jews to accept Christ Jesus (as Mashiach Yeshua), since say 1950, there still seems to be a fair amount of animosity toward Christianity and Christians in general. However, times are changing now that Messianic Jews (not just Christians) are bringing their fellow brethren to accept Mashiach Yeshua as evident by some great testimonies (e.g. I MET MESSIAH). This Youtube testimony by Mordechai Mottel Baleston has probably garnered more views to date (produced by One For Israel) ... http://www.imetmessiah.com/index.php/about

Very nice to hear stories of Jewish people who have come to Christ, praise the name of the Lord forever!

In addressing your point in relation to my previous posts that I believe you refered to, I must stress that the old Jew died on the cross, that resulted in the removal of the dividing line of hostilities and boastings about fleshly genealogies. Christ came and renewed the old Jew and made the Jew better through the Spirit. The old Jew was therefore dissolved after the cross and in Christ the new Jew was resurrected, who was governed by the Spirit and not rheroteric contained in the letter of the Mosaic law. I am trying to stay within the relevance of the thread topic, that the passing of the written mosaic code was accompanied by the passing of the old Jew, that being so, howbeit that if a Jew professes Christ, yet continues in the old Jew. The old Jew being dissolved on the cross was the sign given to Jonah that after three days the fleshly boundaries and contentions were no longer at play and the days of the temple worship and sacrificial systems were ended and a new Jew manifested with the new form of worship in the Spirit.

So how can the statement "once a Jew, always a Jew",be logically valid if Messianics say that they are born again and are Spirit-filled.

You see for a messianic to say that they are born again and Spirit filled, they must deny the old Jew and embrace the new Jew. The new Jew is the Jew reborn of the Spirit of God, whereas the old Jew was one who followed after the flesh and was bound by ordinances applied outwardly to the flesh. The outward fleshly Jew died on the cross and the new Jew took his place to reign in the dawn of the new age in Christ.

So where are we brothers and sisters in Christ. We need not look towards Jerusalem or an earthly Messianic Kingdom to come, nor the re-establishing of the old Jewish sacrificial system. Therefore we look not at an earthly reign from Jerusalem in the Middle East, as this was the grave mistake that the old Jews made when they thought that their Messiah will come like a sword wielding Mohammed of Islam. How wrong it would be to have a fleshly earthly reign, after the true Messiah has already for the last 2000 years established his spiritual Kingdom, that is the born again and Spirit filled believers.

My question to the Messianic Jews is this...

Q1. If the old Jews who have not embraced Christ, live to see a sword wielding Messiah come to rescue them from their enemies and to reign from Jerusalem in the Middle East, would they consider the cross of salvation through being justified by faith alone or would they by sight look in awe at the spectacle, of this manifested Devine being as the first coming of their Messiah?

Q2. The Messianics after seeing their old Jews believe in this manifested first coming in the absence of the cross of salvation, will they accept that this is a true conversion by faith and ignore that their fellow old Jews never considered the true Messiah's coming and death on the cross?

If Messianics did accept an earthly messiah and renewed temple sacrifices and temple worship to the earthly Messiah in Jerusalem, then is this not the deception on a grand scale?

 

[Berean777]

So how can a Jew boast of being an old Jew and at the same time say that they are born again of the Spirit of God.

John 1:11-13
11He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

In order for a Jew or a gentile to be truly have the birth that comes from God, they must have denounced their physical birth resulting from human passion or plan.

So for the birth that comes from God to result, the physical birth must be dissolved in Christ and so that our minds and hearts no longer look back to the origin of the flesh, because we are of the Spirit.

Romans 9:8
8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Once an old Jew in the flesh and now a new and better Jew in Christ and of thE Spirit, should be the Moto of Messianics.

Galatians 3:26-29
26For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.28There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

Jesus came to establish one nation and one people's in him and this nation would spread throughout the world and be likened to the sand of the seashore. This is the spiritual Kingdom that has been actively being built up for the last 2000 years. How can Messianics believe that humans can build a nation for God after he has already established that one nation upon the cornerstone Christ Jesus and in which it comprises of both Jew and gentile?

Therefore there is no earthly reign, no temple worship in Jerusalem, no old covenant sacrificial system and certainly no fleshly earthly kingdom that the old Jews were anticipating upon rejecting the true Messiah.

You see when we commit ourselves to nationalistic ambitions, we make our plans the focal point and build a false god around that and this is what has happened to all the pagan religions of the world and the old Jews of Israel today, are in danger of erecting the symbol of the golden calf all over again.

 

[Open Heart]

In the case of the Jewish boy who holds back the urge to steal from his mother, This would fit the extrinsic obedience of the law, because of fear of repercussion from his actions, that would result in an anticipated punitive punishment.

The Jews I know obey the Law for love of God. There is no punishment for breaking the Sabbath, for example.

 

[ScottA]

Very nice to hear stories of Jewish people who have come to Christ, praise the name of the Lord forever!

In addressing your point in relation to my previous posts that I believe you refered to, I must stress that the old Jew died on the cross, that resulted in the removal of the dividing line of hostilities and boastings about fleshly genealogies. Christ came and renewed the old Jew and made the Jew better through the Spirit. The old Jew was therefore dissolved after the cross and in Christ the new Jew was resurrected, who was governed by the Spirit and not rheroteric contained in the letter of the Mosaic law. I am trying to stay within the relevance of the thread topic, that the passing of the written mosaic code was accompanied by the passing of the old Jew, that being so, howbeit that if a Jew professes Christ, yet continues in the old Jew. The old Jew being dissolved on the cross was the sign given to Jonah that after three days the fleshly boundaries and contentions were no longer at play and the days of the temple worship and sacrificial systems were ended and a new Jew manifested with the new form of worship in the Spirit.

So how can the statement "once a Jew, always a Jew",be logically valid if Messianics say that they are born again and are Spirit-filled.

You see for a messianic to say that they are born again and Spirit filled, they must deny the old Jew and embrace the new Jew. The new Jew is the Jew reborn of the Spirit of God, whereas the old Jew was one who followed after the flesh and was bound by ordinances applied outwardly to the flesh. The outward fleshly Jew died on the cross and the new Jew took his place to reign in the dawn of the new age in Christ.

So where are we brothers and sisters in Christ. We need not look towards Jerusalem or an earthly Messianic Kingdom to come, nor the re-establishing of the old Jewish sacrificial system. Therefore we look not at an earthly reign from Jerusalem in the Middle East, as this was the grave mistake that the old Jews made when they thought that their Messiah will come like a sword wielding Mohammed of Islam. How wrong it would be to have a fleshly earthly reign, after the true Messiah has already for the last 2000 years established his spiritual Kingdom, that is the born again and Spirit filled believers.

My question to the Messianic Jews is this...

Q1. If the old Jews who have not embraced Christ, live to see a sword wielding Messiah come to rescue them from their enemies and to reign from Jerusalem in the Middle East, would they consider the cross of salvation through being justified by faith alone or would they by sight look in awe at the spectacle, of this manifested Devine being as the first coming of their Messiah?

Q2. The Messianics after seeing their old Jews believe in this manifested first coming in the absence of the cross of salvation, will they accept that this is a true conversion by faith and ignore that their fellow old Jews never considered the true Messiah's coming and death on the cross?

If Messianics did accept an earthly messiah and renewed temple sacrifices and temple worship to the earthly Messiah in Jerusalem, then is this not the deception on a grand scale?

Christ makes the best example. As we are partakers with Christ, we too do not denounce our time in the flesh, but consider it as sacrificial, even looking upon our wounds in remembrance.

 

[Berean777]

The Jews I know obey the Law for love of God. There is no punishment for breaking the Sabbath, for example.

So what you are saying that it is ok for Jews to break the Sabbath, as long as there is a valid reason, like, cooking food for the sick, turning lights on for a child that awakes in fright from a dream, driving your car to take your loved ones to a medical centre when they are sick, celebrating birthdays of loved ones, changing nappies for babies.

So your are saying that the Sabbath is done out of love to God through observance, without obligations to the old covenant ordinances, contained in the letter of the law, that stated do this or else this is the punishment.


In Exodus 31:14 we read that Sabbath violators were to be stoned to death. According to your application of the Sabbath, you don't believe that it is accompanied by similar or at least different penalty to be enforced today? If you say that the penalty feature of the Sabbath law is done away and that observance is only in love, then you have really declared the Sabbath abolished from a Pharisaical legislative prerogative, for a law has no force if there is no penalty provided for its violation.

This means that according to your take on the old Jewish customary sabbath, there is no punitive punishments and therefore this no longer becomes a question of abiding in the Mosaic law. In old covenant Israel the law/legislation was always accompanied by punishments for infringement of the law, just like a parking or speeding ticket which is given for infringements.

If we are to understand why Messianics today observe the Sabbath similar to the seventh day Adventists, then we must consider these outward actions as separate from the Mosaic law and deem them to be non-compulsory and only a gesture on behalf of the adherents, who are doing it purely on the basis of identifying with their fleshly genealogical Jewishness before their Jewish peers, in order to be seen that they are the genuine article of the faith amongst their communities. So this form of outward faith as I have explained in my previous posts is one that is extrinsically motivated by outside influencing factors, like peers or group community mentality that is embedded as a primary discourse, which is part and parcel of identifying the group with its Jewishness, much like a zebra has strips to identify with its kind. This form of worship is similar to Islam in that Muslims need to be seen to exhibit a certain outward characteristics in order to be justified to be of that group, for example whether a believer is Sunni or Shia version of Islam and in this respect sects within the broader Jewish community also internalise these outward characteristics in order to be recognised as part of that particular sect.

Again the question arises, are these Sabbath observances done in love or are they primarily ritualistically performed for the sole purpose of identification.

Jesus put a stop to this group mentality and outward style of worship that Jews and Muslims do in order to be seen by significant others within their communities, in order to hold onto their identity and worth within that community and not to be looked upon as outcasts. It becomes a group mentality divorced from any religious aspects to how Jesus commanded us to worship. Jesus said.....

Matthew 6:5-8
5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So here we have Jesus instructing the believers to worship God secretly in the heart. So Christ-ianity is not about showing others how much faith and love you have for God before others, rather it is intrinsically motivated to have a need to project this love secretly without others even knowing about it. This applies to fasting as well, when a person prays or fasts he doesn't announce it, rather he just does it and those of his kindred who see this person outside of these secret worship acts, won't even realise that this person prays seven times a day or is fasting. In other words the faith in Christ is not one that requires a group effort or recognition, rather it is solely based on a heart to heart form of communication, that is, your heart and the Lord's heart. It would be like one lover secretly communicating his/her love to the other lover with the world being oblivious to it.

If I were to say that I abide in the Sabbath more so than a practising Jew, would that be a true statement?

The answer is yes, because the application of the Sabbath is no longer outwardly performed in the flesh, rather our observance is done discreetly in the secret compartment of the heart, where true worshippers worship God in Spirit and in truth as Jesus said. (John 4:23-24)

So born again Christians who worship God in Spirit and in truth are the true Sabbath keepers for the Lord of the Sabbath dwells in them as the one and only temple and not in a temple in Jerusalem. In this regard observances and worship are inwardly in the heart and is done discreetly, not like Islam how they prostrate five times a day on a carpet and bang their heads against the floor until a circular discolouration appears on their forehead. Within the Muslim community he who has the biggest circular discolouration on the forehead is one who is said amongst his religious community to be the more religious and zealous for his faith. So in this respect, this form of outward worship is politically motivated and is a form of ideological up bringing, that is internalised as a benchmark for acceptance within the primary discourses of the religious group or sect.

 

[Berean777]

Christ makes the best example. As we are partakers with Christ, we too do not denounce our time in the flesh, but consider it as sacrificial, even looking upon our wounds in remembrance.

That is not what Jesus said.

Matthew 16:24-27
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

To deny oneself is not to take part in repeated reflections of the time in flesh, unless one is tempted upon these reflections to revert back to those lustful ways. So we are to do 180 degrees turn and forget what we were in the flesh and to become like our Lord in his personage, as we are being sanctified by the Spirit in our life long walk by faith. If we keep on looking back and reflecting on what we were in the flesh, by considering it as sacrificial, then we become no different to Lot's wife who looked back to the consuming fires of Soddom and Gommorah.

So we are instructed to look upon Christ's wounds in remembrance and not to our own once fleshly faithlessness.

John 19:37
And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

So the world has in the last 2000 years been looking at the Christ who was crucified and many have come to faith by that message. Your twist on looking upon yourself and your wounds in remembrance is rather at odds with the generational message tied to the cross.

If I looked upon my fleshly self in remembrance, I would not look in a positive way, rather it would be repugnate to say the least and one that will make me vomite, rather than consider it as a sacrifice as you have said, after all who do I think I am, to even make remembrance of fleshly sinful self, unless I am having tempting tendencies to revert back to the old fleshly self. So in this regard I have blotted out that old fleshly self, never to be remembered and never to be revisited.

I find it rather bewildering that Full Preterists remember themselves being wounded for their own transgressions. How bizarre!