If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Jan001]

Nothing in the NT singles out the ten. However, ALL 613 commandments were given by God himself, which is the equivalent of Christ.

Yes, Jesus is equal to the Father.

 

[Jan001]

The moral law of God - that which according to Romans 3:19-21 and Romans 7 - defines what sin is.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Sin is disobedience to God.
But, the laws required by God to be obeyed in the NT are not the same as the laws required by God to be obeyed in the Law of Moses in the OT. The laws required by God to be obeyed by the converted Gentiles and converted Jews in the NT are not the same as the laws required by God to be obeyed by the Israelites/Jews in the OT.

 

[Jan001]

Other than the "Covenant" made with Israel at Sinai that includes the "Ark of the Covenant" that includes the TEN Commandments? - as given "by Christ" according to Heb 8? so then "other than that"??

Scripture does not specifically state what you are implying. That was my point.

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. nkjv​

 

[Jan001]

1. The term "Catholic" is not in the Bible. Not even in Romans 1:8.
2. "spoken throughout the whole Catholic", or "spoken throughout the Catholic" is not a phrase anyone recognizes as being in the Bible nor is it used today that I know of.

The English word Catholic is taken from the Greek word Katholikos. The Katholikos/Catholic Church was first named by the early church members to describe their universally known church which was visible throughout the whole world (Roman Empire).

And, yes, this same word Catholic Church has been used continuously throughout the centuries and it is still used today by over 1 billion Catholics.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

To summarize, does God expect us to establish the law (rom 3:31)? Yes. Is it right to say that we arrived at perfection or say we keep ALL His commandments? No.

--MoG

The spirit of the Law of Moses is binding on NT Christians. The letter (handwriting of requirements) of the Law of Moses is not binding on NT Christians. Colossians 2:13-15

The following are the requirements of the spirit of the Law which is binding on NT Christians.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” nkjv

Romans 13-9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” nkjv

Matthew 19:16-19
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 17 So He said to him, 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ nkjv

The (letter) Law of Moses is deficient.

2 Corinthians 3:5-8
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. nkjv

 

[Man-ofGod]

The spirit of the Law of Moses is binding on NT Christians. The letter (handwriting of requirements) of the Law of Moses is not binding on NT Christians. Colossians 2:13-15

The following are the requirements of the spirit of the Law which is binding on NT Christians.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” nkjv

Romans 13-9
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” nkjv

Matthew 19:16-19
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 17 So He said to him, 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ nkjv

The (letter) Law of Moses is deficient.

2 Corinthians 3:5-8
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. nkjv

Is it your contention that because the Christian is to live by the spirit of the law that he is free to transgress the letter?

Blessings to you,
MoG

 

[Jan001]

Is it your contention that because the Christian is to live by the spirit of the law that he is free to transgress the letter?

Blessings to you,
MoG

The letter of the Law of Moses, such as the dietary requirements, sabbath requirements, and circumcision requirements were nailed to the cross and are no longer useful for the Christian.

I listed some of the commandments which embody the spirit of the law and these must be obeyed if a person desires to be approved to be able to enter into eternal life after death.

 

[Meowzltov]

Hi there,

I will take it one step further. The whole of scripture was inspired by Christ and it is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness (2 tim 3:16). What is your point here?



Blessings,
--MoG

There are many Christians who teach that the New Testament support keeping the ten commandments, referring to them over and over. Not so. The New Testament refers to the entire Mosaic law -- the times it quotes from the ten, it is doing so as part of the entire Mosaic commandments. "The Law" refers to Mosaic Law, not the ten. Otherwise there would be no law against assualt, no law against homosexuality, etc. Even Gentiles, who are to follow Natural Law rather than Mosaic Law, follow more than the ten. Is it lawful for an unmarried Christian to have sex with a sheep? It's certainly not dealt with in the ten. And according to the Jerusalem Council, Gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not included in the letter from James.

 

[Man-ofGod]

There are many Christians who teach that the New Testament support keeping the ten commandments, referring to them over and over. Not so. The New Testament refers to the entire Mosaic law -- the times it quotes from the ten, it is doing so as part of the entire Mosaic commandments. "The Law" refers to Mosaic Law, not the ten. Otherwise there would be no law against assualt, no law against homosexuality, etc. Even Gentiles, who are to follow Natural Law rather than Mosaic Law, follow more than the ten. Is it lawful for an unmarried Christian to have sex with a sheep? It's certainly not dealt with in the ten. And according to the Jerusalem Council, Gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not included in the letter from James.

The lack of reinforcement for the Sabbath commandment in the Jerusalem council is a weak argument against Sabbath keeping in my opinion. In its' recommendation, it is only speaking to issues that concerned the church at the time. Namely, diet, circumcision and idolatry. The Sabbath was not an issue for the early church, since they were already keeping it, both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42, also see Schaff, History of Christianity).

I also have no problem extending the law to the mosaic law, the principals of all the law as you said apply (eg. laws against homosexuality), even circumcision, although now its circumcision of the heart. Consider that the 613 laws(even the whole bible) expounded on the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments represent 10 principals that are timeless.

--MoG

 

[Man-ofGod]

The letter of the Law of Moses, such as the dietary requirements, sabbath requirements, and circumcision requirements were nailed to the cross and are no longer useful for the Christian.

I listed some of the commandments which embody the spirit of the law and these must be obeyed if a person desires to be approved to be able to enter into eternal life after death.

I am not trying to be cute here, but is that a yes?

 

[Meowzltov]

The lack of reinforcement for the Sabbath commandment in the Jerusalem council is a weak argument against Sabbath keeping in my opinion. In its' recommendation, it is only speaking to issues that concerned the church at the time. Namely, diet, circumcision and idolatry. The Sabbath was not an issue for the early church, since they were already keeping it, both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 13:42, also see Schaff, History of Christianity).

I also have no problem extending the law to the mosaic law, the principals of all the law as you said apply (eg. laws against homosexuality), even circumcision, although now its circumcision of the heart. Consider that the 613 laws(even the whole bible) expounded on the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments represent 10 principals that are timeless.

--MoG

Except that I think the 613 apply only to jews and to EXCEPTIONAL Gentiles, not to Gentiles in general. This is why you had the thousands of Jewish believers in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" yet Paul admonishing Peter for teaching Gentiles to observe Jewish dietary laws.

 

[BukiRob]

Sin is disobedience to God.
But, the laws required by God to be obeyed in the NT are not the same as the laws required by God to be obeyed in the Law of Moses in the OT. The laws required by God to be obeyed by the converted Gentiles and converted Jews in the NT are not the same as the laws required by God to be obeyed by the Israelites/Jews in the OT.

the problem with this kind of thinking is you have G-d changing when his word declares that he does not change.

the problem with this is that we have liteny of scripture in the NT that says the opposite of what you propose.

1 Jn 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

So how did Messiah walk? In FULL, COMPLETE Obedeince to those parts of Torah that directly pertained to him. In his own words he declares that he did not come to do away with Torah but to this day we have many teaching that the Law is done away with that it was "Nailed to the cross"

Consider that their is an axiom that says Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence. To say that G-d has done away with Torah requires prima facie evidence of unparalleled clarity. To claim that G-d was doing away with Torah CAN NOT be established with murky distortions of teachings of Paul. IMO it REQUIRES unmistakable clarity from a primary source. MESSIAH. None of the kind is found. Surely such an earth shaking teaching would have been revealed by Messiah after his Resurrection and before his Ascension but we do not see any such eveidence provided.

Thusly, it is my view that looking at Paul's teaching as the foundation upon which such teaching lies is so suspect as to be ineligible for this teaching. Particularly so when Peter warns the reader about Paul's teaching, 2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[bugkiller]

Is it your contention that because the Christian is to live by the spirit of the law that he is free to transgress the letter?

Blessings to you,
MoG

Do you have some specific law or command in mind? If so aren't you really promoting one must keep the law for salvation? Are you asking if we can sin? Sin was before the law. The law didn't create sin. Gal 3:17-19.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The letter of the Law of Moses, such as the dietary requirements, sabbath requirements, and circumcision requirements were nailed to the cross and are no longer useful for the Christian.

I listed some of the commandments which embody the spirit of the law and these must be obeyed if a person desires to be approved to be able to enter into eternal life after death.

Then the death and resurrection of Jesus mean nothing.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Except that I think the 613 apply only to jews and to EXCEPTIONAL Gentiles, not to Gentiles in general. This is why you had the thousands of Jewish believers in Jerusalem being "zealous for Torah" yet Paul admonishing Peter for teaching Gentiles to observe Jewish dietary laws.

Oh please give us a break.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

the problem with this kind of thinking is you have G-d changing when his word declares that he does not change.

the problem with this is that we have liteny of scripture in the NT that says the opposite of what you propose.

1 Jn 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

So how did Messiah walk? In FULL, COMPLETE Obedeince to those parts of Torah that directly pertained to him. In his own words he declares that he did not come to do away with Torah but to this day we have many teaching that the Law is done away with that it was "Nailed to the cross"

Consider that their is an axiom that says Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence. To say that G-d has done away with Torah requires prima facie evidence of unparalleled clarity. To claim that G-d was doing away with Torah CAN NOT be established with murky distortions of teachings of Paul. IMO it REQUIRES unmistakable clarity from a primary source. MESSIAH. None of the kind is found. Surely such an earth shaking teaching would have been revealed by Messiah after his Resurrection and before his Ascension but we do not see any such eveidence provided.

Thusly, it is my view that looking at Paul's teaching as the foundation upon which such teaching lies is so suspect as to be ineligible for this teaching. Particularly so when Peter warns the reader about Paul's teaching, 2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

No, God doesn't change, however the prophets show clearly God changes His covenants.

bugkiller

 

[BukiRob]

No, God doesn't change, however the prophets show clearly God changes His covenants.

bugkiller

I completely disagree. The covenants have not really changed at all... the revelation of them is what has changed.

Abraham and every single person who has ever been saved has been saved the same way... by FAITH.

There is this highly erroneous teaching that is that Torah was about earning your salvation. This was not true when Torah was given and it is not true today

 

[Jan001]

I am not trying to be cute here, but is that a yes?

The letter of the Mosaic law is the 613 laws.
Circumcision of the heart in the NT replaces circumcision of the flesh in the OT.

Some of the Ten Commandments are examples of the natural law.
The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT.

The laws of the NT are whatever the apostles and their successors tell us they are, but established doctrines/dogmas may not ever be changed by anyone. Matthew 18:18

Examples of NT laws:

Romans 13:9-10
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. nkjv

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. nkjv
​

The authority of the apostles and their successors is given to them by God:

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” nkjv
​

 

[Jan001]

Then the death and resurrection of Jesus mean nothing.

bugkiller

Not sure of your point.

Do you believe that Christians will inherit eternal life even if they do not obey God's commandments until death?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Not sure of your point.

Do you believe that Christians will inherit eternal life even if they do not obey God's commandments until death?

Yes, I do.