If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Jan001]

the problem with this kind of thinking is you have G-d changing when his word declares that he does not change.

the problem with this is that we have liteny of scripture in the NT that says the opposite of what you propose.

Please quote the Scriptures for your claims. I do not know which ones you are referring to. Thank you.

1 Jn 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

So how did Messiah walk? In FULL, COMPLETE Obedeince to those parts of Torah that directly pertained to him. In his own words he declares that he did not come to do away with Torah but to this day we have many teaching that the Law is done away with that it was "Nailed to the cross"

Adam's sin destroyed the spiritual relationship between God and mankind. Jesus as both God and Man, by His perfect offering of Himself on the cross to His Father, thereby reconciled God and mankind.

Jesus, as a Jew, obeyed the 613 Mosaic Law commandments until His death. He obeyed them perfectly. His physical death as perfect Man was the sacrificial offering which was needed to atone for Adam's sin. By His death Jesus finished/fulfilled/completed the 613 commandments for all Jews. When a person finishes/completes/fulfills a project or contract, there is no further obligation on his part. That is why these 613 laws were said to be nailed to the cross with Jesus. His perfect sacrificial death finished any further obligation to do them and He did this for all the Jews. The Gentiles were never bound by them.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. nkjv​

Consider that their is an axiom that says Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence. To say that G-d has done away with Torah requires prima facie evidence of unparalleled clarity. To claim that G-d was doing away with Torah CAN NOT be established with murky distortions of teachings of Paul. IMO it REQUIRES unmistakable clarity from a primary source. MESSIAH. None of the kind is found. Surely such an earth shaking teaching would have been revealed by Messiah after his Resurrection and before his Ascension but we do not see any such eveidence provided.

Even before the Messiah Jesus' resurrection and ascension, He taught what was necessary to inherit/enter eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ nkjv

Luke 10:25-37
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” nkjv
​

The letter of the Law of Moses (the 613 commands) are not mentioned in Jesus' commands.

The spirit of the Law of Moses is and always will be commanded by Jesus until He returns at His second appearing/coming.

The spirit of the Law of Moses must be obeyed until death by those who desire to enter/inherit eternal life.

The spirit of the Law of Moses:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."

Thusly, it is my view that looking at Paul's teaching as the foundation upon which such teaching lies is so suspect as to be ineligible for this teaching. .....

I believe that my understanding of Paul's teachings do reflect Jesus' own commands.

When Jesus was specifically asked by certain Jews [God's chosen people] what must be done in order to inherit/enter eternal life, He plainly told them what was necessary.

Jesus told these Jews back then just as He now tells His followers today to obey the spirit of the Law of Moses.

Jesus did not come to earth to abolish the the letter of the Law of Moses. He came to earth to complete/finish/fulfill it. Which He did perfectly. Because He finished the letter of the Law of Moses, it is no longer in use. It is obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

Before Jesus' resurrection, He explains why He came to earth.

Matthew 5:16-18
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. nkjv
​

After Jesus' resurrection, He explains that He has fulfilled the letter of the Law of Moses by His life, death, and resurrection.

Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” nkjv

​

What is the commandment for the Christian regarding the Law of Moses? The Christian is bound by the spirit of the Law of Moses, but the Christian is not bound by the letter of the Law of Moses.

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. nkjv

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. nkjv

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” nkjv
​

Christians do fulfill the Law of Moses when they do the following:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."

The people who do this commandment until they die will then be approved by God to enter/inherit eternal life.

​

​

 

[Jan001]

Yes, I do.

I believe Scripture disagrees with you.

Christians must obey God's commandments until they die if they desire to be approved by God to enter/inherit eternal life.

This is what happens to Christians who do evil and do not repent before they die:

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, nkjv

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv

Luke 13:23-28
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. niv
​

Christian evildoers who die unrepentant are not approved to enter/inherit eternal life.

​

 

[BukiRob]

Please quote the Scriptures for your claims. I do not know which ones you are referring to. Thank you.



Adam's sin destroyed the spiritual relationship between God and mankind. Jesus as both God and Man, by His perfect offering of Himself on the cross to His Father, thereby reconciled God and mankind.

Jesus, as a Jew, obeyed the 613 Mosaic Law commandments until His death. He obeyed them perfectly. His physical death as perfect Man was the sacrificial offering which was needed to atone for Adam's sin. By His death Jesus finished/fulfilled/completed the 613 commandments for all Jews. When a person finishes/completes/fulfills a project or contract, there is no further obligation on his part. That is why these 613 laws were said to be nailed to the cross with Jesus. His perfect sacrificial death finished any further obligation to do them and He did this for all the Jews. The Gentiles were never bound by them.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. nkjv​

Even before the Messiah Jesus' resurrection and ascension, He taught what was necessary to inherit/enter eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ nkjv

Luke 10:25-37
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” nkjv
​

The letter of the Law of Moses (the 613 commands) are not mentioned in Jesus' commands.

The spirit of the Law of Moses is and always will be commanded by Jesus until He returns at His second appearing/coming.

The spirit of the Law of Moses must be obeyed until death by those who desire to enter/inherit eternal life.

The spirit of the Law of Moses:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."



I believe that my understanding of Paul's teachings do reflect Jesus' own commands.

When Jesus was specifically asked by certain Jews [God's chosen people] what must be done in order to inherit/enter eternal life, He plainly told them what was necessary.

Jesus told these Jews back then just as He now tells His followers today to obey the spirit of the Law of Moses.

Jesus did not come to earth to abolish the the letter of the Law of Moses. He came to earth to complete/finish/fulfill it. Which He did perfectly. Because He finished the letter of the Law of Moses, it is no longer in use. It is obsolete. Hebrews 8:13

Before Jesus' resurrection, He explains why He came to earth.

Matthew 5:16-18
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. nkjv
​

After Jesus' resurrection, He explains that He has fulfilled the letter of the Law of Moses by His life, death, and resurrection.

Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” nkjv

​

What is the commandment for the Christian regarding the Law of Moses? The Christian is bound by the spirit of the Law of Moses, but the Christian is not bound by the letter of the Law of Moses.

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. nkjv

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. nkjv

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” nkjv
​

Christians do fulfill the Law of Moses when they do the following:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself."

The people who do this commandment until they die will then be approved by God to enter/inherit eternal life.

​

​

yeshua did not nor could he have observed all 613.

the fact that you assert he did means you do not understand the Torah yet you propse to teach on it? Seems a bit off no?

 

[BobRyan]

yeshua did not nor could he have observed all 613.

the fact that you assert he did means you do not understand the Torah yet you propse to teach on it? Seems a bit off no?

Romans 8:4-8 says that only wicked "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"

 

[BobRyan]

Some of the Ten Commandments are examples of the natural law.
The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT.

I think we have to quote you - as the source for that statement - since it appears you have no text for "The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT."

 

[Sophrosyne]

I believe Scripture disagrees with you.

Christians must obey God's commandments until they die if they desire to be approved by God to enter/inherit eternal life.

This is what happens to Christians who do evil and do not repent before they die:

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, nkjv

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv

Luke 13:23-28
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. niv
​

Christian evildoers who die unrepentant are not approved to enter/inherit eternal life.

​

One has to toss in the trash their faith in Jesus to fall prey to the idea that keeping commandments saves us.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who do not believe in OSAS -- raise hands.... "me... me.. my hand is up"!!

 

[BukiRob]

I think we have to quote you - as the source for that statement - since it appears you have no text for "The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT."

Yep.... and in-spite of their assertion they can not cite a single, solitary scriptural verse that supports this doctrine.

It is said that with extraordinary claims extraordinary evidence is needed to support it....

They claim Torah nailed to the Tree.

By every conceivable standard the doing away with Torah is an exceptional extraordinary claim. Such a claim to be true would require unmistakable clarity for it to be true. It by its very nature could NOT be supported by murky, distorted passages of scripture that provide anything but clarity.

G-d provided UNMISTAKABLE clarity when he established Sabbath and his Feasts. Unmistakable clarity when he handed down the Torah... First trying to speak DIRECTLY to Israel and then because of their fear, speaking directly to Moses with clarity.

Yet, we see NONE of this in the gospels or epistles. In fact what we see is the exact opposite when Messiah speaks about the commandments. We see CLARITY. "If you love me keep my commandments"

Yet, we see GENTILES trying to assert that Messiah was not talking about the Torah to those he spoke too... Just an ABSURD notion. Who was Yeshua speaking to? JEWS who were Observant... Yet MANY try to say "oh he was only talking about the 2 great commandments" Utter rubbish.

Torah, Sabbath and the Feasts are not trivial, minor side concerns. No, rather they are FOUNDATIONAL issues. Yet Messiah does not speak about them being set aside after his Resurrection during is appearances to his followers? We have concerete evidence that the apostles were observant as well as Paul but we have this distorted teaching that has Gentiles NOT partaking???????

Its perversion of truth. Prior to Messiah, if a Gentile wanted to walk with G-d he could PROVIDED he begin to walk in the light of Torah. Now suddenly for inexplicable reasons it is done away with? No... Yeshua did not teach this and if he said the opposite (AND HE DID) then I care not who says it is done away with when Messiah says it is not, it is not.

 

[Jan001]

yeshua did not nor could he have observed all 613.

the fact that you assert he did means you do not understand the Torah yet you propse to teach on it? Seems a bit off no?

Jesus observed all the Torah perfectly. Of course, some of the 613 did not apply to Him at all. He could not obey any of the 613 which did not apply.

 

[Jan001]

I think we have to quote you - as the source for that statement - since it appears you have no text for "The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT."

Well, you do believe there must be a text or else it cannot be true since you believe in Sola Scriptura. I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

Scripture does indeed tell us that there is more to the Christian faith which needs to be believed/practiced than what is written in the NT.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. nkjv

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. nkjv

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

One has to toss in the trash their faith in Jesus to fall prey to the idea that keeping commandments saves us.

It is true that Jesus first gives us salvation as His gift to us when we repent/believe and are baptized.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. nkjv

But, a person must continue in the Christian faith until his death in order to be approved to inherit/enter eternal life. To continue in the faith means to obey God's commandments.

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” nkjv

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. nkjv

A person who claims he knows Jesus Christ and that he follows Him but does not obey God's commandments is called a liar.

What happens to these lying Christians after they die?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” nkjv

2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv

A person continues in the Christian faith until he dies only if he obeys God's commandments until he dies. If he does not obey God's commandments until he dies, he will not be approved to enter into eternal life. Matthew 24:11-13, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2:10&version=NIV']Revelation 2:10[/URL]

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. nkjv

 

[BukiRob]

One has to toss in the trash their faith in Jesus to fall prey to the idea that keeping commandments saves us.

Please explain why you would assume that Keeping the commandments can save anyone past, present or future.

I do not understand why people make this false assumption about the Torah

 

[Jan001]

Yep.... and in-spite of their assertion they can not cite a single, solitary scriptural verse that supports this doctrine.

It is said that with extraordinary claims extraordinary evidence is needed to support it....

They claim Torah nailed to the Tree.

By every conceivable standard the doing away with Torah is an exceptional extraordinary claim. Such a claim to be true would require unmistakable clarity for it to be true. It by its very nature could NOT be supported by murky, distorted passages of scripture that provide anything but clarity.

G-d provided UNMISTAKABLE clarity when he established Sabbath and his Feasts. Unmistakable clarity when he handed down the Torah... First trying to speak DIRECTLY to Israel and then because of their fear, speaking directly to Moses with clarity.

Yet, we see NONE of this in the gospels or epistles. In fact what we see is the exact opposite when Messiah speaks about the commandments. We see CLARITY. "If you love me keep my commandments"

Yet, we see GENTILES trying to assert that Messiah was not talking about the Torah to those he spoke too... Just an ABSURD notion. Who was Yeshua speaking to? JEWS who were Observant... Yet MANY try to say "oh he was only talking about the 2 great commandments" Utter rubbish.

Torah, Sabbath and the Feasts are not trivial, minor side concerns. No, rather they are FOUNDATIONAL issues. Yet Messiah does not speak about them being set aside after his Resurrection during is appearances to his followers? We have concerete evidence that the apostles were observant as well as Paul but we have this distorted teaching that has Gentiles NOT partaking???????

Its perversion of truth. Prior to Messiah, if a Gentile wanted to walk with G-d he could PROVIDED he begin to walk in the light of Torah. Now suddenly for inexplicable reasons it is done away with? No... Yeshua did not teach this and if he said the opposite (AND HE DID) then I care not who says it is done away with when Messiah says it is not, it is not.

Where exactly in Scripture does it command you to obtain a Bible and interpret it for yourself?

Where in Scripture does it tell you that if you do obtain a Bible and interpret it for yourself that then you will absolutely know completely and infallibly the total gospel of Jesus Christ?

My Bible tells me that Jesus gave His authority to His Church which He built upon the foundation of Peter and the other apostles and the prophets. Matthew 16:18, Ephesians 2:19-22

My Bible also tells me that I must obey His Church. My Bible does not tell me to obey my own interpretations of the Scriptures of whatever Bible I happen to choose to read. Luke 10:16

My Bible tells me to obey both the word (oral teachings) and epistle (written teachings) traditions of my faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

I also know that the oral traditions of the Church are foremost and if my personal interpretations of the Scriptures do not agree with the 2000 year old oral teachings of the Church, it is my personal interpretations of the written Scriptures that are in error.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Please explain why you would assume that Keeping the commandments can save anyone past, present or future.

I do not understand why people make this false assumption about the Torah

Ask Jan... she is the one who claimed that one must keep commandments till they die to "be approved" for eternal life. To me that says salvation hinges on keeping commandments.

 

[BukiRob]

Ask Jan... she is the one who claimed that one must keep commandments till they die to "be approved" for eternal life. To me that says salvation hinges on keeping commandments.

That is not found in scripture in fact the exact opposite is found. Abraham was saved by Faith... We are told that Abraham believed G-d (concerning the promise) and it was counted as righteousness to him.... G-d speaking to Issac said that Abraham listened to G-d that he obeyed his ordinances, statues, decree's and commandments.... Abraham was obedient but SAVED by Grace through his Faith.

Same with all of the prophets and patriarchs. Same as any believer today.

Purpose of Torah is to show us HOW to love G-d and our fellow man (the 2 great commandments)

We are led by the Spirit and the Spirit leads us to all truth.... scripture tells us what is Truth.... TORAH IS TRUTH.

Consider the parable of the prodigal son.... One was obedient (walked in the light of Torah)... one was not.... BOTH were sons (saved)

What did the prodigal son do? Sowed to his flesh. He ends up defiling himself but wakes up and decides to return to his Father to beg to be hired as a servant.

The Father does not curse him but REJOICES....

 

[Sophrosyne]

That is not found in scripture in fact the exact opposite is found. Abraham was saved by Faith... We are told that Abraham believed G-d (concerning the promise) and it was counted as righteousness to him.... G-d speaking to Issac said that Abraham listened to G-d that he obeyed his ordinances, statues, decree's and commandments.... Abraham was obedient but SAVED by Grace through his Faith.

Same with all of the prophets and patriarchs. Same as any believer today.

Purpose of Torah is to show us HOW to love G-d and our fellow man (the 2 great commandments)

We are led by the Spirit and the Spirit leads us to all truth.... scripture tells us what is Truth.... TORAH IS TRUTH.

Consider the parable of the prodigal son.... One was obedient (walked in the light of Torah)... one was not.... BOTH were sons (saved)

What did the prodigal son do? Sowed to his flesh. He ends up defiling himself but wakes up and decides to return to his Father to beg to be hired as a servant.

The Father does not curse him but REJOICES....

Tell this to those people who insist that keeping commandments (like the Sabbath) is REQUIRED for salvation.

 

[BukiRob]

Tell this to those people who insist that keeping commandments (like the Sabbath) is REQUIRED for salvation.

Hmmm I can say I haven't heard anyone from the messianic community hold that position. So I honestly do not know where that comes from.

 

[BobRyan]

Jan001 said: ↑
Some of the Ten Commandments are examples of the natural law.
The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT.

I think we have to quote you - as the source for that statement - since it appears you have no text in the entire Bible for "The Lord's Day rest requirement in the NT replaces the Sabbath Day rest requirement of the OT."

Well, you do believe there must be a text or else it cannot be true since you believe in Sola Scriptura.

Indeed that is true.

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

And there is NO text in the NT saying "do not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" -- that commandment is never repeated in the NT - yet it remains.

Eph 6:2 tells us the TEN commandments remain as binding law for Christians.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

So then - we can agree to disagree.

 

[BobRyan]

Please explain why you would assume that Keeping the commandments can save anyone past, present or future.

I do not understand why people make this false assumption about the Torah

They seldom quote something to sustain their accusations -- almost no attempt to show that in fact such ideas as "the lost just need to keep the Sabbath and presto - they are saved" being claimed by anyone at all.

Thus it all reduces down to mere "spin doctoring" and non-quotes used to make the accusation.

 

[BobRyan]

Ask Jan... she is the one who claimed that one must keep commandments till they die to "be approved" for eternal life. To me that says salvation hinges on keeping commandments.

And "yet" when you ask Jan if she believes in free will she may be saying "yes"

If you ask if she believes the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS - she may be saying "no" because of what we find in Matt 18, Romans 11, John 15:1-8 etc.

If you ask if she believes in 1John 3, 1 John 2:1-8 -- the answer is probably "yes".

Yet if you ask "so then all the lost have to do is keep God's commandments and they will thereby earn their way to heaven - no matter that all have sinned?" -- the answer is likely to be "no" since in fact the Law is not a means of salvation -- it is not its own 'Savior".