If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Jan001]

Ask Jan... she is the one who claimed that one must keep commandments till they die to "be approved" for eternal life. To me that says salvation hinges on keeping commandments.

Yes, after Jesus saves a person as His gift to this person, in order for this person to be approved to enter into eternal life he must do his best to keep God's commandments until he dies. Salvation is a lifelong process. Salvation is not a onetime event.

 

[Jan001]

That is not found in scripture in fact the exact opposite is found. Abraham was saved by Faith... We are told that Abraham believed G-d (concerning the promise) and it was counted as righteousness to him.... G-d speaking to Issac said that Abraham listened to G-d that he obeyed his ordinances, statues, decree's and commandments.... Abraham was obedient but SAVED by Grace through his Faith.

Same with all of the prophets and patriarchs. Same as any believer today.

Abraham was first saved by faith. He believed God when God told him that he was to become the father of many nations.

Genesis 17:4
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. niv
​

Abraham continued to be saved by obeying God's command to sacrifice his son.

Abraham remained faithful to God by obeying God's command to sacrifice his own son. God stopped the sacrifice when He saw that Abraham was obedient to Him.

Matthew 10:37
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. nkjv
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If a saved person does not obey God, he ceases to believe that God is God. In order to continue in belief/faith a person must obey God's commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? niv​

What happens to Christians who fail to continue in the faith through their disobedience?

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv​

Purpose of Torah is to show us HOW to love G-d and our fellow man (the 2 great commandments)

We are led by the Spirit and the Spirit leads us to all truth.... scripture tells us what is Truth.... TORAH IS TRUTH.

Consider the parable of the prodigal son.... One was obedient (walked in the light of Torah)... one was not.... BOTH were sons (saved)

What did the prodigal son do? Sowed to his flesh. He ends up defiling himself but wakes up and decides to return to his Father to beg to be hired as a servant.

The Father does not curse him but REJOICES....

The disobedient prodigal son would not have been re-stored to his father if he had not repented of his sins.

Unrepentant disobedient sons are disinherited and they are not approved to enter into eternal life.

Paul warns his flock:

Ephesians 5:5-7
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. niv

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. nkjv
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Please note that God's wrath is coming upon His sons who are disobedient to Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-8
...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv​

 

[Jan001]

......In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

Nowhere in the New Testament does it command us to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

But it does state that the circumcision of the flesh has been replaced with the circumcision of the heart.

So, since the apostles replaced the OT TORAH COMMANDS about the Levitical priesthood and circumcision for NT Christians, why is it so difficult to believe that the Saturday Sabbath was replaced with the Sunday Lord's Day worship and rest?

Ephesians 2:11
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— nkjv​

Hebrews 7:11-13
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. nkjv
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The Saturday Sabbath Laws are connected with the Levite priesthood. The first day of the week Sunday Lord's Day worship is connected with the Melchizedek priesthood.

Hebrews 7:11-13
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He [Jesus] of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. nkjv

Acts 2:42
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. nkjv

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, nkjv
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The Sunday Lord's Day worship was commanded by Jesus and His apostles. The Law [of Moses] was given under the OTC Levitical priesthood and was necessary for the Levitical priesthood. The Levitical priesthood with its high priest has been replaced by the priesthood according to order of Melchizedek with Jesus Christ as high priest forever.

Jesus Christ as Lord of the OT Sabbath made new laws for NT Christians according to the laws of His own Melchizedek priesthood. Jesus Christ changed the day of worship to Sunday. Sunday is His day!

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[Jan001]

And "yet" when you ask Jan if she believes in free will she may be saying "yes"

Yes, I do believe in free will.

If you ask if she believes the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS - she may be saying "no" because of what we find in Matt 18, Romans 11, John 15:1-8 etc.

No, I do not believe in OSAS.

If you ask if she believes in 1John 3, 1 John 2:1-8 -- the answer is probably "yes".

Yes, I do believe in 1 John 3 and 1 John 2:1-8. My understanding of these passages may not be the same as yours. Please be more specific as to the points you desire to make.

Yet if you ask "so then all the lost have to do is keep God's commandments and they will thereby earn their way to heaven - no matter that all have sinned?" -- the answer is likely to be "no" since in fact the Law is not a means of salvation -- it is not its own 'Savior".

We are saved by grace alone. What exactly is this grace? This grace is the Holy Spirit's presence within us. If He is still abiding/remaining within us at the time we die, we will be approved to inherit eternal life.

If the Holy Spirit is no longer present within us at the time of our death due to our unrepentant disobedience, we will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” nkjv
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God takes His Holy Spirit away from the people who do not obey Him.

Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv

John 12:26
If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. nkjv

Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. nkjv
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There are many laws against doing what is evil. There are no laws against doing what is good.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. nkjv

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If a person serves His fleshly desires he will be condemned. If a person serves God until death he will be approved to inherit eternal life.

Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv
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How does a person sow to the Holy Spirit?

2 Peter 1:2-8
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv​

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[Sophrosyne]

Yes, after Jesus saves a person as His gift to this person, in order for this person to be approved to enter into eternal life he must do his best to keep God's commandments until he dies. Salvation is a lifelong process. Salvation is not a onetime event.

explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.

 

[BobRyan]

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

So then - we can agree to disagree.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it command us to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

Indeed that command is not repeated in every chapter of the OT just as the third commandment is not repeated at all in the NT - the command not to take God's name in vain.

A fact that does not delete the commandment - it merely is a fact.

In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "

But it does state that the circumcision of the flesh has been replaced with the circumcision of the heart.

So, since the apostles replaced the OT TORAH COMMANDS about the Levitical priesthood and circumcision for NT Christians, why is it so difficult to believe that the Saturday Sabbath was replaced with the Sunday Lord's Day worship and rest?

Because "making stuff up" does not have the same authority as "scripture".

In Romans 2 we are told of circumcision of the heart - being that which matters while circumcision of the flesh does not matter.

In Heb 7 we are told that the Levitical priesthood has ended - while not told anywhere that week-day-1 replaces the 7th day.

Rev 1:10 does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
Rev 1:10 does not say "The Lord's Day is a replacement for the 4th commandment Sabbath"

 

[BobRyan]

explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.

All of them - all sin is sin.

"sin IS transgression of the LAW" - 1 John 3:4.

if your question is "Which sin may I cherish and not repent of -- and still have heaven" you are reading "another gospel"

1 John 3 will not allow such a "gospel"
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.


1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

If your question is "what part of God's Word may I be uninformed about and still go to heaven" that is another question. "Whatever is not of faith is sin" - and "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17


Rom 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. ...
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Jan001]

explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.

The NT has references for many sins which cause the loss of salvation. Here are some:

Galatians 5:19-21
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. niv

1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. niv

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. niv
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Since Paul was concerned about losing the prize of salvation for himself and for other Christians, we should also be concerned about losing our own salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. niv

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. niv


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[Jan001]

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

And, the command for keeping the Saturday Sabbath is also missing from all lists of commandments for NT Christians.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

Mark 7:6-13 condemns human traditions which edit God's commandments.

However, the Sunday "first day of the week" Lord's Day is not a human tradition. It is commanded by Jesus Christ.

This command of Jesus is not specifically stated in the Bible as, "You will attend first day worship services instead of Saturday Sabbath services." Nor does it need to be stated as such. Every Christian who lived in 30 A.D. was participating in the weekly first day of the week Sunday Lord's Day worship service. No written reminders were ever needed.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Isaiah 66:23 could just as well have stated: "Everyone will continually worship me." There is no counting of "time" in eternity. There is only "today" in eternity. We will simply have eternal rest.

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Yes, what matters is keeping the commandments of God; however, the commandments for NT Christians do not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. niv
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It seems to me that you keep insisting on rules that Paul condemns. What exactly do you think Colossians 2:13-16 means?

And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

Faithful Christians assemble together to worship God on the first day of every week of every year. We call our worship day on the first day of the week the Lord's Day and we have been calling it this for 2000 years.

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

You still have not provided Scriptural proof that sola scriptura is biblical.

I have shown that both the oral traditions [by word] and the written traditions [by epistle/letter] must be adhered to by all Christians.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. niv​

In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "

The Christians who lived in that time period assembled together on the first day of the week/the Lord's Day and broke bread and worshiped God together. This is a historical fact.


1. Colossians 2:13-16 commands the Christians to ignore the Jewish converts who insist that Christians keep the dietary laws, the festival laws, new moon laws, and Sabbath laws. Why do you continue to insist that the Saturday Sabbath is binding for Christians when Scripture shows us that it is not?

2. I've provided Scriptural proof [2 Thessalonians 2:15] that Scripture alone is not true. Why do you continue to insist that Sola Scriptura is true?

 

[Albion]

You still have not provided Scriptural proof that sola scriptura is biblical.

The Bible is the word of God and testifies to its own origin. Virtually all Christian churches accept the Bible as true. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that there is something ELSE that is its equal. Therefore, Sola Scriptura.

I have shown that both the oral traditions [by word] and the written traditions [by epistle/letter] must be adhered to by all Christians.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. niv​

Yes, but the reference here is to traditions, not to Tradition.​

2. I've provided Scriptural proof [2 Thessalonians 2:15] that Scripture alone is not true. Why do you continue to insist that Sola Scriptura is true?

Because there is not a single verse (including 2 Thess 2.15) that says or implies that there is anything that's the equal of Scripture--yet that is exactly what "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition" is alleged to be.

In addition, there is no logic to thinking that there is such an authority that's parallel to the Bible unless there's some reason to think that God's own word is insufficient for his purposes or incomplete.


.

 

[BobRyan]

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

So then - we can agree to disagree.



Indeed that command is not repeated in every chapter of the OT just as the third commandment is not repeated at all in the NT - the command not to take God's name in vain.

A fact that does not delete the commandment - it merely is a fact.

In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "



Because "making stuff up" does not have the same authority as "scripture".

In Romans 2 we are told of circumcision of the heart - being that which matters while circumcision of the flesh does not matter.

In Heb 7 we are told that the Levitical priesthood has ended - while not told anywhere that week-day-1 replaces the 7th day.

Rev 1:10 does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
Rev 1:10 does not say "The Lord's Day is a replacement for the 4th commandment Sabbath"

so while we DO have those NT statements support of the 7th day Sabbath - we have NONE of them for week-day-1

We DO NOT have in the entire Bible
1. Week-day 1 is the Sabbath
2. Week-day 1 is the Lord's day
3. Christians observe week day 1 as a day of rest and worship
4. Christians replace the Sabbath with week-day-1 services.
5. week day 1 is the "Holy day of the Lord"
6. "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy"
7. "week day-1 made for mankind"
8. "from week-day-1 to week-day-1 shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Nothing of that sort in the entire Bible for week-day-1

And yet the Bible has almost all of those statements above - for God's 7th day - "our saturday" - Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

And, the command for keeping the Saturday Sabbath is also missing from all lists of commandments for NT Christians.

Not entirely true since Eph 6:2 says that the unit of law to be kept by the saints is the TEN Commandments and Heb 4 says "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" and 1Cor 7:19 says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God."

And of course - Mark 7:6-13 condemns the efforts to bend/edit/twist the Commandments of God to conform to man's tradition.

However, the Sunday "first day of the week" Lord's Day is not a human tradition. It is commanded by Jesus Christ.

Just not in the actual Bible.

This command of Jesus is not specifically stated in the Bible as, "You will attend first day worship services instead of Saturday Sabbath services."

true - it simply is not there - to get statements like you claimed in your prior statement - one would have to "quote you".

Every Christian who lived in 30 A.D. was participating in the weekly first day of the week Sunday Lord's Day worship service.

But not according to the actual Bible.

to get such statements as you just made - one would have to "quote you" - not the Bible.

Isaiah 66:23 could just as well have stated: "Everyone will continually worship me."

Not true at all since "From Sabbath to Sabbath" is never used in all of scripture for "continually".

And not true since Is 66 specifically identifies TWO cycles. one weekly and one monthly - which does not fit at all into the reworked "continually" idea. This point is irrefutable.

Yes, what matters is keeping the commandments of God; however, the commandments for NT Christians do not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

until you read the Bible - in places such as Heb 4 'there remains therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" -- remains from the time of David and the Psalms at the very least according to Heb 4.

Col 2 condemns "making stuff up" it does not condemn, food, or drink or the Bible commandments. Christ paid our debt due to sin - he did not abolish His own Word on the cross!

Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

​

Faithful Christians assemble together to worship God on the first day of every week of every year.

But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.

We call our worship day on the first day of the week the Lord's Day

But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.

You still have not provided Scriptural proof that sola scriptura is biblical.

until you read Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13.

I have shown that both the oral traditions [by word] and the written traditions [by epistle/letter] must be adhered to by all Christians.

"Sola Scriptura" as a doctrine in the teaching that all doctrine and tradition must be tested against scripture to see if they contradict with the Word of God.

The Christians who lived in that time period assembled together on the first day of the week/the Lord's Day and broke bread and worshiped God together. This is a historical fact.

Not weekly

1. Colossians 2:13-16 commands the Christians to ignore the Jewish converts who insist that Christians keep the dietary laws, the festival laws, new moon laws, and Sabbath laws.

No it doesn't.

Paul is himself 'A Jewish convert". And "dietary laws" are found in Acts 15 - not just in Lev 11 and Lev 17.

 

[Jan001]

The Bible is the word of God and testifies to its own origin. Virtually all Christian churches accept the Bible as true. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that there is something ELSE that is its equal. Therefore, Sola Scriptura.

The Bible does not and cannot testify to its own origin. The Bible is a book. It cannot speak to testify about anything. It is an inanimate object.

The words written in the Koran claim it to be the word of God/Allah. If a person grows up in a Muslim home, he will most likely believe his parents when they tell him that the Koran is the word of God. A science fiction book may make the claim within its written words that it alone is the word of God. And so may any other book make this claim.

I believe the Bible to be true because I believe that the authors of it were inspired by God to write it. In other words, I believe the men who claim that their own written words (Bible) is the true Word of God.

Scripture states that the Church (and her God-appointed leaders) is the foundation of the Christian faith and so it cannot possibly be Scripture alone as you keep insisting. Scripture is indeed helpful for teaching the faith, but it is not the foundation of the Christian faith.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. niv​

The leaders of the Church claim that their oral preaching and their written letters are both commanded to be held fast and not Scripture alone as you keep claiming.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. nkjv
​

This is very plain. Scripture alone is not enough. Oral tradition also known as Tradition is very important. So important in fact that the interpretation of the written word must agree with the oral teachings of the apostles which have been passed down to us today.

Because there is not a single verse (including 2 Thess 2.15) that says or implies that there is anything that's the equal of Scripture--yet that is exactly what "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition" is alleged to be.

In addition, there is no logic to thinking that there is such an authority that's parallel to the Bible unless there's some reason to think that God's own word is insufficient for his purposes or incomplete.

I disagree with your logic. God's own word is sufficient. But God's word was handed down to us by both oral tradition and by the written word. Both are necessary for us to believe if we want to be faithful to Jesus' gospel.

The following is Jesus' command to His apostles. Please note that Jesus never commanded them to write a book. Surely if the written word was most important, He would have commanded it.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” niv​

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

Not entirely true since Eph 6:2 says that the unit of law to be kept by the saints is the TEN Commandments and Heb 4 says "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" and 1Cor 7:19 says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God."

And of course - Mark 7:6-13 condemns the efforts to bend/edit/twist the Commandments of God to conform to man's tradition.



Just not in the actual Bible.



true - it simply is not there - to get statements like you claimed in your prior statement - one would have to "quote you".




But not according to the actual Bible.

to get such statements as you just made - one would have to "quote you" - not the Bible.



Not true at all since "From Sabbath to Sabbath" is never used in all of scripture for "continually".

And not true since Is 66 specifically identifies TWO cycles. one weekly and one monthly - which does not fit at all into the reworked "continually" idea. This point is irrefutable.



until you read the Bible - in places such as Heb 4 'there remains therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" -- remains from the time of David and the Psalms at the very least according to Heb 4.

Col 2 condemns "making stuff up" it does not condemn, food, or drink or the Bible commandments. Christ paid our debt due to sin - he did not abolish His own Word on the cross!

Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

​

But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.



But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.




until you read Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13.



"Sola Scriptura" as a doctrine in the teaching that all doctrine and tradition must be tested against scripture to see if they contradict with the Word of God.



Not weekly



No it doesn't.

Paul is himself 'A Jewish convert". And "dietary laws" are found in Acts 15 - not just in Lev 11 and Lev 17.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible does not and cannot testify to its own origin. The Bible is a book. It cannot speak to testify about anything. It is an inanimate object.

Until you read 2 Tim 3:16, and 2 Peter 1:19-21

 

[BobRyan]

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

And there is NO text in the NT saying "do not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" -- that commandment is never repeated in the NT - yet it remains.

Eph 6:2 tells us the TEN commandments remain as binding law for Christians.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

So then - we can agree to disagree.

so while we DO have those NT statements support of the 7th day Sabbath - we have NONE of them for week-day-1

We DO NOT have in the entire Bible
1. Week-day 1 is the Sabbath
2. Week-day 1 is the Lord's day
3. Christians observe week day 1 as a day of rest and worship
4. Christians replace the Sabbath with week-day-1 services.
5. week day 1 is the "Holy day of the Lord"
6. "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy"
7. "week day-1 made for mankind"
8. "from week-day-1 to week-day-1 shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Nothing of that sort in the entire Bible for week-day-1

And yet the Bible has almost all of those statements above - for God's 7th day - "our saturday" - Sabbath.

So then "yes" - we can agree to disagree.

 

[bugkiller]

Abraham was first saved by faith. He believed God when God told him that he was to become the father of many nations.

Genesis 17:4
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. niv
​

Abraham continued to be saved by obeying God's command to sacrifice his son.

Abraham remained faithful to God by obeying God's command to sacrifice his own son. God stopped the sacrifice when He saw that Abraham was obedient to Him.

Matthew 10:37
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. nkjv
​

If a saved person does not obey God, he ceases to believe that God is God. In order to continue in belief/faith a person must obey God's commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? niv​

What happens to Christians who fail to continue in the faith through their disobedience?

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv​

The disobedient prodigal son would not have been re-stored to his father if he had not repented of his sins.

Unrepentant disobedient sons are disinherited and they are not approved to enter into eternal life.

Paul warns his flock:

Ephesians 5:5-7
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. niv

Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. nkjv
​

Please note that God's wrath is coming upon His sons who are disobedient to Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-8
...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv​

Very true. Problem is you're applying it to an expired covenant we are not held accountable to.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, I do believe in free will.



No, I do not believe in OSAS.



Yes, I do believe in 1 John 3 and 1 John 2:1-8. My understanding of these passages may not be the same as yours. Please be more specific as to the points you desire to make.



We are saved by grace alone. What exactly is this grace? This grace is the Holy Spirit's presence within us. If He is still abiding/remaining within us at the time we die, we will be approved to inherit eternal life.

If the Holy Spirit is no longer present within us at the time of our death due to our unrepentant disobedience, we will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” nkjv
​

God takes His Holy Spirit away from the people who do not obey Him.

Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv

John 12:26
If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. nkjv

Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. nkjv
​

There are many laws against doing what is evil. There are no laws against doing what is good.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. nkjv

​

If a person serves His fleshly desires he will be condemned. If a person serves God until death he will be approved to inherit eternal life.

Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv
​

How does a person sow to the Holy Spirit?

2 Peter 1:2-8
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv​

Your total presentation over several posts of what you state is contradictory.

You say we're saved by grace and seem to be saying unless we keep the law there won't be any eternal life. That is salvation by works and not grace making it wages. The Bible clearly wages are death not eternal life.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.

Right on!!!! All one needs to do in this case is to pay attention to the words of Jesus which are in the present tense.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.

The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.

What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.

What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.

Which you do as proven in many posts.

And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

You continue to avoid those little words highlighted in blue. They say nothing about on.

What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7

Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.

but your view isn't based on the Bible. Yes you quote it.

Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.

Are you admitting here that you're a violator? You don't keep the Sabbath as presented in Ex 20.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Paul didn't teach us to keep the law.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

So then - we can agree to disagree.



Indeed that command is not repeated in every chapter of the OT just as the third commandment is not repeated at all in the NT - the command not to take God's name in vain.

A fact that does not delete the commandment - it merely is a fact.

In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "

Continued misuse of the Bible to promote false doctrine.

Because "making stuff up" does not have the same authority as "scripture".

OK, what you say has no validity (authority).

In Romans 2 we are told of circumcision of the heart - being that which matters while circumcision of the flesh does not matter.

This applies only to Jews. Christians aren't circumcised in any fashion. Such would make them obligated to the law which Paul says in the same book we are delivered from.

In Heb 7 we are told that the Levitical priesthood has ended - while not told anywhere that week-day-1 replaces the 7th day.

No one can keep the 7th day Sabbath without the Levitical priesthood. Its all the law or none of the law (grace).

Rev 1:10 does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"

It doesn't say its the 7th day either. It can and has been supported from both the Bible and historical documents John is speaking about the 1st day of the week.

Rev 1:10 does not say "The Lord's Day is a replacement for the 4th commandment Sabbath"

So what.

bugkiller