If You Believe in White Privilege

[LoAmmi]

But if it is really about discrimination then call it that. Discrimination is something we can identify, something that is illegal, something we can choose to not participate in or sanction. If you are intentionally bypassing a candidate based on race that is something society rejects as immoral.

Saying someone is privileged so we should stigmatize them is not helpful. We should not call what white people experience--lack of discrimination on the basis of race--privilege. We should call that the way things should be. According to our values everyone should have that situation. Those who are being discriminated against are being disadvantaged. Those who are committing acts of discrimination are the problem, not some inherent quality of whiteness.

But it isn't about intentional acts of discrimination. That's the point actually. By virtue of having a normal name, I don't have to worry about my resume being passed over by a hiring manager who might not even be aware they are doing that. It's just that they see a different name and have a gut level reaction.

I recognize in myself biases. If I were to get on an elevator filled with black men, I'd feel less safe than if that elevator were filled with white men. That is a gut level emotional reaction that I cannot control. If I weren't really aware of that, I probably wouldn't even consider it to be a problem. I certainly wouldn't view that feeling as racist at all.

But because I understand that it is an emotional response to those people being different than me, I am able to use my intelligence to overcome that emotion. I don't treat those men any different than I'd treat the white men.

 

[LoAmmi]

To clarify: my understanding is that it wasn't so much that the GI Bill benefits weren't available to blacks, but that the institutions that provided the services that the GI Bill paid for (e.g. banks & colleges) would refuse to serve blacks. No, the denial wasn't universal (there were black colleges, after all), but it was common.

Got it.

There's a reason we have historically black colleges for sure. I find it very amusing today when white people complain about them when they are that way because black people were not allowed in other colleges.

 

[tall73]

But it isn't about intentional acts of discrimination. That's the point actually. By virtue of having a normal name, I don't have to worry about my resume being passed over by a hiring manager who might not even be aware they are doing that. It's just that they see a different name and have a gut level reaction.

Sorry, but the racist knows they are racist. They are not really cluelessly passing these folks by. And when people constantly accuse folks from a whole race of being racists, just not knowing it, that is the sort of thing that reinforces tribalism. If you are going to call me racist no matter what I do, then there can be no progress. If I am having a conversation on Facebook and then suddenly I am told I am not black so I can't say anything on a given topic, because I am white, that is not reinforcing the notion that white people should stop being racist. That just makes them annoyed.

If I were to get on an elevator filled with black men, I'd feel less safe than if that elevator were filled with white men. That is a gut level emotional reaction that I cannot control.

Saying it is gut level is here excusing your initial thought. If you have felt this way for years, and still feel it every time, despite recognizing it is not factual, then that is a thought you have allowed to remain in your head and continue.

If I weren't really aware of that, I probably wouldn't even consider it to be a problem. I certainly wouldn't view that feeling as racist at all.

But because I understand that it is an emotional response to those people being different than me, I am able to use my intelligence to overcome that emotion. I don't treat those men any different than I'd treat the white men.

You are treating them differently because you are running your actions through a filter that you don't use when standing in the elevator otherwise. You have to check off on your special "around black people" behavior. You have to look deep inside for any hidden bias before talking. That is not normal. We are training people to do this, to look for bias in themselves when around specific groups. But for a lot of people of more recent generations, they just don't think that way to start with. Why ask them to think that way? Or why tell them they think that way when they do not?

 

[tall73]

I don't think society rejects racial discrimination. Not this society, not yet, not the society that is still controlled by Boomers and War Genners. There is a whole lot of virtue signalling going on, but the Boomers and the War Generations are still greatly motivated by racism. We'll have to die off before there can be clarity on the case with younger generations because we still run the country.

I don't think calling groups that experience what we want all groups to experience--lack of discrimination--privileged is going to help kill off the ideas. Even if those generations of people die off, the ideas have to die off. They try to pass them on to their kids.

Which is going to make those kids more likely to reject the notions that their racist family are trying to pass down? Teaching not to discriminate, or telling them they are privileged, evil white men who have oppressed people?

If the previous generations feel guilty and are virtue signaling, then that is their issue. But my kid is not running around oppressing anyone. And he doesn't need to hear that he does, any more than a black child should have to hear racist statements.

 

[tall73]

There is a whole lot of virtue signalling going on, but the Boomers and the War Generations are still greatly motivated by racism. We'll have to die off before there can be clarity on the case with younger generations because we still run the country.

I am not from the boomers or war generation, and I can tell you one of the things I see driving actual racism in my generation, and the generation of my kids, is the constant demonization of either side. And whites of my generation definitely take it as demonization when they hear they are racist, no matter how they act, or racist, no matter how they think, or that they are privileged because of actions they had nothing to do with, and that their opinion on a given matter is not needed because they are white. That is not an actual attempt at solving the problem. That rhetoric is aimed at flaming tensions.

 

[PeachyKeane]

Do I get to weigh on on this?

 

[tall73]

Do I get to weigh on on this?

Um, why would you not?

 

[PeachyKeane]

OP specifically asks for white people.

 

[tall73]

OP specifically asks for white people.

Hm, well we found one white privilege!

I would think you should definitely weigh in.

 

[LoAmmi]

Saying it is gut level is here excusing your initial thought. If you have felt this way for years, and still feel it every time, despite recognizing it is not factual, then that is a thought you have allowed to remain in your head and continue.

Ever stare down at a dark basement and feel a pang of fear because SOMETHING could be down there? How about watch a horror movie and then feel a bit nervous turning off the lights? Or anything the same. Does the fact that you are aware those are foolish thoughts stop you from having them? I'm not allowing something to remain and continue. I'd like to not have them, but I cannot force it to go away.

You are treating them differently because you are running your actions through a filter that you don't use when standing in the elevator otherwise. You have to check off on your special "around black people" behavior. You have to look deep inside for any hidden bias before talking. That is not normal. We are training people to do this, to look for bias in themselves when around specific groups. But for a lot of people of more recent generations, they just don't think that way to start with. Why ask them to think that way? Or why tell them they think that way when they do not?

Oh nonsense. Everybody has biases. It is recognizing bias and working to overcome it that makes someone better in that sense. Not pretending that bias doesn't exist and people with biases are normal.

 

[tall73]

Ever stare down at a dark basement and feel a pang of fear because SOMETHING could be down there? How about watch a horror movie and then feel a bit nervous turning off the lights? Or anything the same. Does the fact that you are aware those are foolish thoughts stop you from having them? I'm not allowing something to remain and continue. I'd like to not have them, but I cannot force it to go away.

I don't compare being around people to watching a horror movie. A horror movie is designed to scare you. Black people are just living their life. If you want to say the first time you encountered black people they were different and you were scared, I could see that. But if you are still having this thought years down the road, then maybe the remedy you are applying isn't working. If you have to analyze how you act around every group, every time you are around them, then that is not helping you get past such feelings, but reinforcing them. Because every time you are around them you are going through the same mental ritual, that becomes part of being around them

Oh nonsense. Everybody has biases. It is recognizing bias and working to overcome it that makes someone better in that sense. Not pretending that bias doesn't exist and people with biases are normal.

To say that someone has an initial bias to many things is true. But if you still have that bias years later at a "gut" level, ie, you always think that way, then your manner of working on it doesn't seem to be working.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't compare people to a horror movie. A horror movie is designed to scare you. Black people are just living their life. If you want to say the first time you encountered black people they were different and you were scared, I could see that. But if you are still having this thought years down the road, then maybe the remedy you are applying isn't working. If you have to analyze how you act around every group, every time you are around them, then that is not helping you get past such feelings, but reinforcing them. Because every time you are around them you are going through the same mental ritual, that becomes part of being around them



To say that someone has an initial bias to many things is true. But if you still have that bias years later at a "gut" level, ie, you always think that way, then your manner of working on it doesn't seem to be working.

Do you possess any advanced training in psychology?

 

[tall73]

Do you possess any advanced training in psychology?

Do I need to in order to be unafraid of black people?

I can watch the kids playing at my church, kids from all different races, some of whom are born to parents of different races, who are not afraid of each other at all, and realize it is not something they have to be afraid of.

And to answer the question, some training, but I doubt it would be considered advanced.

 

[LoAmmi]

Do I need to in order to be unafraid of black people?

I can watch the kids playing at my church, kids from all different races, some of whom are born to parents of different races, who are not afraid of each other at all, and realize it is not something they have to be afraid of.

No, but you probably need one in order to have any degree of understanding when someone is telling you how their mind works and you think they should just be able to change it. I'm not going to be able to change these things. They are what they are. My point is that I recognize them in myself and don't act upon them. Yes, it means recognizing the thought and then rejecting it. Also, you claimed that it isn't normal, again, with no training to back up that assertion.

I also never said that everybody is like this, so let's not pretend I said anything of the sort.

 

[tall73]

No, but you probably need one in order to have any degree of understanding when someone is telling you how their mind works and you think they should just be able to change it.

Well that is a different question. I have done lots of counseling. And people can often change their thinking.

I'm not going to be able to change these things. They are what they are.

You can't change going through the same mental process everytime you are around black people? But others have.

My point is that I recognize them in myself and don't act upon them. Yes, it means recognizing the thought and then rejecting it. Also, you claimed that it isn't normal, again, with no training to back up that assertion.

No, what I am saying is not normal, is that if you don't analyze everything for bias around white people, then you are not acting the way you normally would around black people if you so analyze. You don't have to talk to your fears in an elevator of white people, so you are not acting the same.

There may be a great many people who have been afraid of black people for a long time and have difficulty overcoming that. But to read that on to everyone, even people who grew up around people of all races, is not helpful. You have described your issue, and it is shared by many. But you can say the 8 year old down the street playing with kids of all races is doomed to share your fear.

 

[LoAmmi]

There may be a great many people who have been afraid of black people for a long time and have difficulty overcoming that. But to read that on to everyone, even people who grew up around people of all races, is not helpful. You have described your issue, and it is shared by many. But you can say the 8 year old down the street playing with kids of all races is doomed to share your fear.

I never said this at all and I would appreciate you not misrepresenting my position.

 

[tall73]

I never said this at all and I would appreciate you not misrepresenting my position.

I am not trying to. Please note the part you do not agree with, and I will not attribute it to you.

You seem to be suggesting that this fear continuing is natural for everyone. If I am misunderstanding that then please clarify.

 

[LoAmmi]

I am not trying to. But didn't you say people have biases and they do not realize it?

Please note the part you do not agree with, and I will not attribute it to you.

Yes, everybody has biases. I never said everybody has the same biases. When we look at the scientific method, a lot of the point is an attempt to remove bias from the equation.

For an example where they might not realize it, look at confirmation bias. We have a great tendency to interpret information in a way that agrees with our current position. This is why you see the same story come out and one side says it means Trump is the greatest President and the other sid says it means he's the worst.

 

[tall73]

Yes, everybody has biases. I never said everybody has the same biases. When we look at the scientific method, a lot of the point is an attempt to remove bias from the equation.

When we are evaluating information we often have to protect against bias.

And if someone is afraid of a group of people, they need to address that too. We both acknowledged that there is a fear of the unknown, and when you meet someone for the first time from a different group, you might be on edge.

But if you have been trying to address it for years, and still have that, then the method you are using may not be the right one. You acknowledge you don't want to think this way, so I don't see it as any moral failing. But the method you are using to address it has not seemed to deal with it. My suggestion is that if you start analyzing every time to make sure you are doing everything right, that is not the way you interact with everyone else by default. So continuing to do that seems like it will automatically yield different results.

Maybe I am not understanding what it is that happens. Do you just realize, shrug and move on? Or do you realize it and start analyzing everything you say from that point?

For an example where they might not realize it, look at confirmation bias. We have a great tendency to interpret information in a way that agrees with our current position. This is why you see the same story come out and one side says it means Trump is the greatest President and the other sid says it means he's the worst.

Do you think of confirmation bias on ideas as similar to your approach to people?

 

[PeachyKeane]

Do I need to in order to be unafraid of black people?

I can watch the kids playing at my church, kids from all different races, some of whom are born to parents of different races, who are not afraid of each other at all, and realize it is not something they have to be afraid of.

And to answer the question, some training, but I doubt it would be considered advanced.

I assume you've heard of implicit bias?