If You Believe in White Privilege

[tall73]

The demographics ofnthe populations are different. IIRC, 1st gen immigrants (not just East Asians, but Indians and Africans too) tend to outperform natives on a lot of metrics.

Well there go the privileges based totally on race then.

After all, it takes a lot of moxy to move across the globe and rebuild your life.

Motivation feeds into success in life. That is not helping the argument for privileges based on race.

Additionally, there’s a selection bias built into the way we issue visas. If we only allow in educated, skilled immigrants, then yeah, they’ll outperform the average native.

So then if the Asian success story, despite discrimination, is based on factors such as education, motivation, etc. then it is not all about inherent racial privilege or discrimination.

And of course, not all Asian Americans succeed because they are Asian. And some of the early Asian Americans were not highly educated, etc.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'll throw out this number...

$120,000


That's roughly what I have in my savings account, and it was undoubtedly easier for me to get a job in Akron, OH (a city that has a large black population) than it would be for them.

When I was a Computer Science major at Akron U, I already had a job offer before I even graduated, and there were friends of mine (who weren't white) in the same classes as I was, who were just as talented, and who even interviewed at the place I work, and were turned down.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are still people in a "hiring position" who assume that certain ethnicity groups are smarter than others.

Don't get me wrong, "White privilege" doesn't explain away every racial disparity in the US...but it certainly can't be dismissed as 100% myth either.

 

[mama2one]

How much of your personal wealth can be directly attributed to "white privilege"?

don't know if we have ever competed for jobs with nonwhites but doubt it as where we live, it is over 90% white pop.

 

[tall73]

What about American privilege, wealth due to accident of being born in a well to do country?

Rich privilege, being born into a wealthy family?

IQ privilege, being born with a higher IQ than others?

Is there any way to make everyone even at the start? I don't see it. But in the meantime breaking into groups just builds resentment. A kid born into a rich family did not choose that, any more than I chose to be born in the US. It was just what happened.

All we can change is the way we treat and look at people.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Well there go the privileges based totally on race then.



Motivation feeds into success in life. That is not helping the argument for privileges based on race.



So then if the Asian success story, despite discrimination, is based on factors such as education, motivation, etc. then it is not all about inherent racial privilege or discrimination.

And of course, not all Asian Americans succeed because they are Asian. And some of the early Asian Americans were not highly educated, etc.

Your point?

 

[tall73]

Your point?

That the entire verbage of "privilige" builds resentment.

I don't get anything out of resenting those who were wealthy at birth, when I wasn't, other than an unwarranted dislike of those who were.

I agree that those who were systemically discriminated against historically have suffered, and have been disadvantaged. Do you think calling some poor white guy privileged does anything to help that?

It is designed to drive identity politics.

 

[super animator]

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are still people in a "hiring position" who assume that certain ethnicity groups are smarter than others.

I think it has something to do with racial stereotypes than anything else. (Like Asian are good at math stereotype).

 

[keith99]

You do realize, don't you, that during that time a black machinist would have been put in the galley or cleaning the wards...not assigned duty as a machinist?

Yes. If a black even got into a unit that was stationed overseas. There were plenty of blacks in New Guinea, but they were all natives.

Your point makes the irony and stupidity of racism clear. It was a do or die situation yet we did not use black machinists in the military. Yet here in Los Angeles it was Manual Arts High School (a very black school) that had the facilities to turn out machinists.

 

[tall73]

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are still people in a "hiring position" who assume that certain ethnicity groups are smarter than others.

Yes, there no doubt are. But then how do we combat that? By stating one ethnic group is privileged? Or by saying that a company who hires someone based on preconceived notions regarding ethnicity, rather than individual merit, is not going to get the best employees? At some point companies that hire only on bias are going to struggle to compete. And preferably there is evidence for them to be prosecuted to deal with it sooner.

 

[mama2one]

it's difficult for people to change from their longheld beliefs

 

[dmmesdale]

What I *have* noticed after decades of working retail, is that bright, capable, hard-working, intelligent minorities with good leadership skills and a good head on their shoulders are less likely to be promoted by White superiors than mediocre-abled White people.

If one's place of employment was owned by African-Americans and a bright, hard-working White kid who'd make a just and equitable manager worked there, too, you might see the same behavior. But how many promotional opportunities are held out to people of color *by* Whites? This ties into what opportunities people have, and who gets to go up. You can live comfortably if you earn enough in retail, but you gotta go up. Often "going up" hinges both on your capacity to lead well *and* who is willing to give you a shot.

Just saying.

If the process was impartial and blind based on objective criteria including eduction level and experience then not one college graduate would get a full-time teaching job in America. That assumes at least ten applicants for every teaching position which is proximate to reality in my area. Assuming a full time opening for a 2nd-grade teacher at a public school, how many applicants would be fresh college Grads? Relative to experienced teachers who would naturally go to the top of the pile based on experience? There is discrimination when most are hired out of college against an experienced more qualified applicant.

If they wish to address discrimination then how about the discrimination practiced in colleges in STEM fields where the more qualified is rejected from Med school because of race quotas? A friend of mine is a 4th-grade teacher who has a daughter with impeccable academic records. Rejected from med school because she is white while the less qualified Native female gets in. It ends up the white daughter reject is now the tutor for the less qualified Native female who was accepted. One would think they would want the best and the brightest as future Doctors in America and STEM but that is no longer the case.


How Identity Politics Is Harming the Sciences

The National Science Foundation (NSF), a federal agency that funds university research, is consumed by diversity ideology. Progress in science, it argues, requires a “diverse STEM workforce.”..

NSF-backed scientists managed to rack up more than 200 Nobel Prizes before the agency realized that scientific progress depends on “diversity.” Those “un-diverse” scientists discovered the fundamental particles of matter and unlocked the genetics of viruses. Now that academic victimology has established a beachhead at the agency, however, it remains to be seen whether the pace of such breakthroughs will continue. The NSF is conducting a half-million-dollar study of “intersectionality” in the STEM fields. “Intersectionality” refers to the increased oppression allegedly experienced by individuals who can check off several categories of victimhood—being female, black, and trans, say. The NSF study’s theory is that such intersectionality lies behind the lack of diversity in STEM. Two sociologists are polling more than 10,000 scientists and engineers in nine professional organizations about the “social and cultural variables” that produce “disadvantage and marginalization” in STEM workplaces....

The National Institutes of Health are another diversity-obsessed federal science funder. Medical schools receive NIH training grants to support postdoctoral education for physicians pursuing a research career in such fields as oncology and cardiology. The NIH threatens to yank any training grant when it comes up for renewal if it has not supported a sufficient number of “underrepresented minorities” (URMs). One problem: there are often no black or Hispanic M.D.s to evaluate for inclusion in the training grant. If there is a potential URM candidate, the principal investigators will pore over his file in the hope of convincing themselves that he is adequately qualified. Meantime, the patently qualified Indian doctor goes to the bottom of the résumé pile.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Good grief....someone has very heavy barrow to push....

Is that some sort of regional expression?

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, there no doubt are. But then how do we combat that? By stating one ethnic group is privileged? Or by saying that a company who hires someone based on preconceived notions regarding ethnicity, rather than individual merit, is not going to get the best employees? At some point companies that hire only on bias are going to struggle to compete. And preferably there is evidence for them to be prosecuted to deal with it sooner.

Probably not. The demographics are such that it's easy to get satisfactory labor even while discriminating. At least for another couple of decades.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually we had crossed wires there a moment. The post you replied to was about talented minorities being overlooked in favor of mediocre whites. You replied saying that was true, but then added a different point. I think we were talking at cross purposes.

Lol you're right...sorry about that. I'm gonna call a do-over on that one. I need to stop posting after midnight...

 

[Richard T]

White privilege is a strange concept to me. True favor comes from God and not man. Rewards on earth are not eternal, so no matter where you are on any earthly scale, God sees and will be entirely just. I come from a rather modest family, worked full-time during much of college and simply push ahead when any roadblock comes up. I admit that discrimination does exist but it works both ways and with minorities being sought out by many employers and schools I am uncertain of any monetary gain for white privilege.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it probably accounts for a good chunk of my wealth.

None of my ancestors were rich or even affluent, but most did okay for themselves. My paternal grandparents both worked f/t - one as a civil servant - and did well enough to own a house in Brooklyn and a small vacation property upstate and send their 4 kids to Catholic school. My maternal side includes a ship captain, auction-house owner and a self-employed carpenter. One set of great-grandparents owned a large-ish tract of land that was then divided up among their children, and then again among some of their children, so we've got a whole redneck family compound near Albany. One cousin was a cop, so there was never any trouble acquiring or enjoying super-illegal-in-NY fireworks on July 4.

My parents always worked, owned a house, and paid for my education, so I entered the working world with zero debt.

None of my family was abused or restricted from jobs, housing, education, or wealth creation. The value of education and hard word was enforced, encouraged, and transferred across generations.

So when you say "a good chunk" give me a percentage to work with...because the things you're talking about seem to have less to do with being white and more to do with the choices your grandparents made (and honestly, good for them for never being bankrupt or struggling with poverty).

So...out of 100% of the wealth they passed on to you...what percent would you call the fruits of their labor/decisions and what percent would you call "white privilege"?

I have not been abused or restricted in any of these ways, either.

So, I would say that my personal wealth was allowed to grow due to my choices, unencumbered by the sort of abuse and discrimination that we're describing, and it was built on a solid foundation that was also unencumbered by that sort of abuse.

Right...I'm talking about white privilege though, not racial injustice. We're talking about the privileges that you get specifically because of your white skin and how it generates wealth. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being a little specific here...but I'm sure you understand when I say this white privilege narrative gets thrown around a lot as an explanation of disparity and it never gets qualified.

I get that your family didn't face racial discrimination...I get that, for example, some black men were unjustly thrown in jail...and that would definitely impact their ability to create wealth.

That doesn't create wealth for your family though....it's not as if some guy from the government showed up one day when your great grandfather went to work and handed every white guy a check for 200$ cuz they threw some of the local blacks in jail....right? White privilege is about unearned benefits...

So what's the unearned benefit that created this "decent chunk of wealth"?

Or... the things set in motion decades ago take a long time to undo. I don't see how this article supports your contention. It's basically saying that the workforce has become more meritocratic with education being more important - but if blacks are still behind on educational attainment (and they are), they're still going to lag on earnings.

Why would today's black workers be behind on educational attainment? Maybe because we deprived their parents and grandparents of educations.

Maybe...but my guess is that if we take a peek at dropout rates, that theory of yours won't hold up.

Unless you want to argue that whites are forcing black students to dropout of school at disproportionately higher rates than whites.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'll give it a try. Not that I believe the premise.

Still a 'privilege' freely extended to whites and very much kept from blacks played a significant part in my father choosing a financially rewarding life. Dad was talented but not all that dedicated a student. He ended up a machinist. A good but not great position. Then came WW II. He took advantage of the privilege of enlisting in the Navy in large part because of the threat of being drafted and ending up somewhere worse. He had 8 hours on, four hours off, 7 days a week for months at a time. When the only thing standing between you and the Japanese are the ships you are repairing keeping enough of those ships in fighting shape is sort of a priority.

Now some will say dad learned discipline in the service. Dad never told me anything like that. What he did learn is that officers got the good end of things and enlisted men got teh shaft, even if the officer had no useful skills and the enlisted man was a pretty good machinist. He made more small intelectual step. He realized the equivalent of the officer/enlisted gap was having a collage degree.

The end of the story is using the GI bill he went to college and ended up a dentist. Perhaps part white privilege, but a lot more of it was hard work.

Blacks weren't allowed to enlist in WW2? Or are you saying that the GI bill was only available to whites?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, but even controlling for other factors, blacks still face more obstacles just by virtue of being black.

At this point, it just looks like you're pointing at injustices done to other races and calling that "white privilege "...which can't be correct...

Whites have suffered all kinds of mistreatment from the government, or even other whites....and I'm guessing you don't call that "black privilege"? It's not as if the Germans rounded up 10 million blacks and systemically exterminated them...is that black privilege?

It's not as if my grandparents were Japanese....they didn't get put in internment camps or have the atom bomb dropped on them....is that white privilege as well?

It just seems like there's no difference between "white privilege" and discriminatory policies in our nation's past in your eyes.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you have some evidence of this, or is this just a story you're telling yourself?.

I don't suppose you'd just take my word for it this one time? It was a study I read way back when the whole Harvard implicit bias test was still new and had some teeth. They tested for bias in a group of teachers....then rated their bias against blacks on a scale. They then had the teachers grade a bunch of short essays by students with "black" names and virtually the same essays with "white" names a little time later (so they wouldn't suspect the same essay)....

Needless to say, I'm having a hard time finding it....there's now thousands of studies on the topic...but I can keep searching if you like.

I did find a researcher who got similar results...but the conclusion he drew was optimistic and more than a little unreasonable in my eyes. He figured that the black students must expect that their teachers are racist....so they try harder to please them....hence the good grades in spite of lower teacher expectations.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Blacks weren't allowed to enlist in WW2? Or are you saying that the GI bill was only available to whites?

The GI Bill was mostly only available to whites - or rather (AFAIK), it was mainly only whites who could take advantage of the perks, like college education and subsidized home loans.