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If you aren't raptured up, can you still be saved?

parousia70

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That doesn't mean He is LITERALLY REIGNING over all nations and peoples on earth today.

Then what does it mean?

What power or authority on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY GREATER than that of Christ Jesus TODAY?
What power on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY ABOVE that of Christ Jesus TODAY.

What Power and authority on earth today is presently NOT UNDER HIS RULE TODAY??

Please be specific.

Jesus Said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Davy says, "that doesn't really mean what it says, it means something else..."

Please tell us what it DOES mean.
 
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parousia70

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That thinking is such a distortion away from the actual written Scripture that I can't see it worthy of any greater reply than this.

How so?
How can you claim a first resurrection that isn't actually FIRST?

The First resurrection being that of Jesus is WELL ATTESTED in scripture... why would you claim otherwise?
 
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Davy

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Then what does it mean?

What power or authority on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY GREATER than that of Christ Jesus?
What power on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY ABOVE that of Christ Jesus.

What Power and authority on earth today is presently NOT UNDER HIS RULE??

Please be specific.

Jesus Said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Davy says, "that doesn't really mean what it says, it means something else..."

Please tell us what it DOES mean.

I'm not going to argue absolutisms with you. Our Heavenly Father has always... been in control, even when He sent the king of Babylon upon Judah when they rebelled against Him. He also sent the kings of Assyria upon the rebellious ten tribes and removed them from the land also, captive in the nations. God is also in control of what Satan is allowed to do, which was simply shown in the case of Job. And our Lord Jesus said His Kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning not this present world we are in today.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.'
KJV


Even the Lord's prayer He gave us in Luke 11 declares His Kingdom to come.

The hireling of John 10 our Lord Jesus warned us about. God didn't call them, so they have to make up stuff, because God's Word is closed off to their understanding. They are the ones who want you to think Christ reign is already happening today on earth when it is not, not yet, but it is coming. When it starts there will be a fight! That will be the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16 & 19 when Jesus returns with His army, wielding a double edged sword that cuts both ways.
 
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Davy

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Then what does it mean?

What power or authority on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY GREATER than that of Christ Jesus?
What power on earth today do you claim is LITERALLY ABOVE that of Christ Jesus.

What Power and authority on earth today is presently NOT UNDER HIS RULE??

Please be specific.

Jesus Said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Davy says, "that doesn't really mean what it says, it means something else..."

Please tell us what it DOES mean.

Now, now, you sink into falseness when you make up a quote I didn't say.

I said:
"That doesn't mean He is LITERALLY REIGNING over all nations and peoples on earth today."

I did NOT say, "that doesn't really mean what it says, it means something else...".


John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV


I guess you never say this prayer that Jesus taught us how to pray...

Luke 11:2
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

KJV

Your argument is just flat ignorant. There is so much Bible Scripture to show that God has a time for His coming Kingdom on earth with His Son reigning here physically on earth with His return, that one has to wonder at folks like you if you've ever really studied much of The Bible.
 
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Jan001

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I do not expect to change your beliefs, but I want to point out some inconsistencies and context for you to consider:
Pauls prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, is not and cannot be about the Return of Jesus. This glorious event, as described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 23:30 and Revelation 19:11, does not mention fire or any destruction other than the attacking armies at Armageddon. Jesus is Returning to the earth to rule it, not to destroy it!

Being revealed in flaming fire doesn't mean His Return, as many other prophesies about that terrible Day, say the Lord will not be seen by all the world then. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11.
Verse 10 does say He will reveal His glory to His faithful people, not to the world, as yet. As it says in Rev 14:1, when He selects the 144,000 out of the vast multitude of His faithful people.

How many times do you think Jesus physically comes to earth? He came 2000 years ago. How many more times do you think He will physically return before the final judgment?
 
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Jan001

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God's Word is the Measure, and the more you get into it, the more you are able to see how that 'Measure' governs interpretation of His Word. So as I was saying, it's not really that difficult to grasp the difference when a metaphor is being given, vs. a real time. Just think how much crazier folks interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel would be if God hadn't given specific events to occur with that timing. Same goes for the "thousand years" in Rev.20.
Everyone's "measure" is his own "interpretations" of the Scriptures but that does not mean that everyone's measures/interpretations is what the author intended his Scriptures to portray. :)
 
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Jan001

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That thinking is such a distortion away from the actual written Scripture that I can't see it worthy of any greater reply than this.
How convenient for you! :)

When was the first resurrection?

Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

How many FIRST resurrections of the dead can there be?
How many FIRST birthdays can a person have before his second birthday?
 
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Jan001

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God's Word is the Measure, and the more you get into it, the more you are able to see how that 'Measure' governs interpretation of His Word. So as I was saying, it's not really that difficult to grasp the difference when a metaphor is being given, vs. a real time. Just think how much crazier folks interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel would be if God hadn't given specific events to occur with that timing. Same goes for the "thousand years" in Rev.20.

I am interested in your interpretation concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel. Do you believe that all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled?
 
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BABerean2

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I am interested in your interpretation concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel. Do you believe that all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled?

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

In the video below Dr. Kelly Varner reveals the true identity of the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, as the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.
 
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Jan001

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Luke 11:2
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
KJV

His kingdom came by the power of His death on the cross. Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.

Luke 17:20-21
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 9:1
And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.

When did the kingdom of God literally begin?

Mark 14:25
Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

The kingdom of God literally began when Jesus took the fruit of the vine/sour wine during His death on the cross. His death ushered in the kingdom of God.

John 19:30
When he had taken the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is accomplished!” And he bowed his head and handed over his spirit.

Jesus' spiritual kingdom is here right now. We enter it through baptism.

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my subjects would be fighting to prevent me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is my kingdom is not from here.”

Jesus Christ is spiritually reigning from heaven right now over all His kingdom everywhere. Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth after His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Hebrews 10:12
But when this priest (Jesus) had offered a single sacrifice for sins for all time, he (Jesus) sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies are placed as a footstool for his feet,

Jesus does not come physically to earth to reign in Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years. Jesus is waiting in heaven right now and He will wait in heaven until His enemies are placed as a footstool for His feet, and then He will come to collect all people, both the living and dead, for the final judgment. All people will receive immortal bodies at this time.


Jesus will spiritually reign from heaven over heaven and earth until He returns for His second/final coming which will bring about the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. Jesus defeats death at His second coming because that is when all those in their tombs will rise from the dead and be given immortal resurrected bodies and also all those who are still alive on earth will be given immortal bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

There is no more physical death after Jesus' second coming. All the dead in their tombs will rise at His second coming in order to be divided into the sheep and goats at the final judgment. Matthew 25:31-46

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

 
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Jan001

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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

In the video below Dr. Kelly Varner reveals the true identity of the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, as the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

I also believe that the 70th week of Daniel ended in the first century with the destruction of Jerusalem.
 
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keras

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How many times do you think Jesus physically comes to earth? He came 2000 years ago. How many more times do you think He will physically return before the final judgment?
Jesus will only come physically back to live on earth once.
The forthcoming Day of the Lords wrath is not a physical coming, as many scriptures about that terrible day show. Psalms 11:4:6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
 
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Jan001

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Jesus will only come physically back to live on earth once.
The forthcoming Day of the Lords wrath is not a physical coming, as many scriptures about that terrible day show. Psalms 11:4:6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

It seems to me that when Jesus returns, we will meet Him in the air and then go with Him to heaven for the judgment of the nations/sheep and goats at the great white throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Please note that the dead are resurrected before we meet the Lord in the air. I do not think that we will all go to Jerusalem in Israel after we meet Jesus in the air so that He can rule there for 1000 years. I think that we will go with Jesus to heaven for the final judgment/sheep and goats judgment/judgment of the nations.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

It seems to me that as soon as the dead are resurrected, judgment will immediately follow.

 
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keras

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It seems to me that when Jesus returns, we will meet Him in the air and then go with Him to heaven for the judgment of the nations/sheep and goats at the great white throne of God.
Revelation 19:11-21, to Revelation 22, is all a sequence: Jesus Returns, He destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan.
He gathers those who remain [alive] to where He is; that will be Jerusalem, Matthew 24:30-31 He resurrects the souls of the martyrs killed during the GT.
He separates the nations into 'sheep and goat' divisions.

Then He reigns for 1000 years, and after God wipes out the final rebellion, he hands over the Kingdom to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then; God will Judge every person who has ever lived, those whose names are in the Book of Life will receive immortality, those not in that Book, will go into the Lake of Fire.
It seems to me that as soon as the dead are resurrected, judgment will immediately follow.
It seems to me that you have taken too much notice of beliefs that do not have proper Biblical support.
The ONLY people raised when Jesus Returns, will be those who were killed during the 3 1/2 year control of the world by the 'beast', the Anti-Christ.
Even they do not receive immortality until after the Millennium, they may die again, as Lazarus did, but over him and those martyrs, the second death has no power; as their names ARE Written in the Book of Life.
 
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Jan001

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Revelation 19:11-21, to Revelation 22, is all a sequence: Jesus Returns, He destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan.
He gathers those who remain [alive] to where He is; that will be Jerusalem, Matthew 24:30-31 He resurrects the souls of the martyrs killed during the GT.
He separates the nations into 'sheep and goat' divisions.

Then He reigns for 1000 years, and after God wipes out the final rebellion, he hands over the Kingdom to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then; God will Judge every person who has ever lived, those whose names are in the Book of Life will receive immortality, those not in that Book, will go into the Lake of Fire.

It seems to me that you have taken too much notice of beliefs that do not have proper Biblical support.
The ONLY people raised when Jesus Returns, will be those who were killed during the 3 1/2 year control of the world by the 'beast', the Anti-Christ.
Even they do not receive immortality until after the Millennium, they may die again, as Lazarus did, but over him and those martyrs, the second death has no power; as their names ARE Written in the Book of Life.

There is only one more resurrection of the dead and it is the resurrection of all the dead at the end of time.

Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him (on earth).

People physically die just once unless it is a special circumstance such as with Lazarus whose body had already been in the tomb too long for it to have not started to decompose. Lazarus did not receive a resurrected body when Jesus brought him back to life and so Lazarus did die physically again at his own appointed time to die.

In the following Scripture passage, the dead will receive resurrected bodies when they rise from the dead in order to accompany Jesus to earth at the end of time to catch up in the air the faithful people who are still living on earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus returns to earth from heaven only once more and it will be at the end of time. When He returns, the faithful on earth will meet Him in the air along with the resurrected saints and then they will all go to heaven for the final judgment.

Jesus does not return to earth before the end of time to physically rule in Jerusalem in Israel for a literal 1000 years. We are living in the "a thousand years" right now and this "a thousand years" is a symbolic way to explain the time period between His first coming 2000 years ago and His second/final coming at the end of time.

Jesus Christ's throne is in heaven right now. Jesus/God will not ever literally physically sit on a man-made throne on earth in Jerusalem in the country of Israel.


Acts 7:48-51
Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands; as the prophet says,
49 ‘Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool.

What house will you build for me, says the Lord,
or what is the place of my rest?
50 Did not my hand make all these things?’
51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Jesus Christ is reigning in heaven as King over all the earth right now.
Philippians 2:5-11
1 Corinthians 15:21-26

When the Lord returns at the end of time, all the dead will be resurrected. The righteous will accompany Jesus to earth to gather up the faithful who are still on earth and return to heaven and the unrighteous will be gathered and sent to hell by God's angels Matthew 13:40-42. All people will somehow be present for the sheep and goats judgment as described in Matthew 25:31-46 whether they are in heaven or in hell. I don't know how God will make this happen but He will.

John 5:25-29
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (THIS WAS THE FIRST RESURRECTION 2000 YEARS AGO AND THIS WAS SHOWN TO US IN MATTHEW 27:50-54.) 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (THIS IS THE SECOND RESURRECTION AND IT WILL OCCUR AT THE END OF TIME.)

The first resurrection happened two thousand years ago. The people who rose from the dead at the time of Jesus' death and resurrection do not have to worry about the second death. They are in heaven right now.

The first death is a person's physical death. The second death is the eternal spiritual death of the peoples who do not know God and who do not love God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

We will agree to disagree, okay? I can't spend any more time on this thread topic for now. :)
 
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keras

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We will agree to disagree, okay? I can't spend any more time on this thread topic for now.
OK. For people like yourself, it will be only as events unfold, that you will understand the amazing Plan of God for His people.
 
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