If you aren't raptured up, can you still be saved?

[CaspianSails]

The rapture will only take Christians who are born in Spirit, however the Christians who know who Jesus is but have not yet fully turned to Him will still remain on Earth. As well as Israelites who not yet accepted Jesus as God and Savior.

There is a lot of logic in your response but not much in the way scripture. If one knows Christ that person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is not possible to be in Christ and not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now I am familiar with teaching that says the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth but I have never seen adequate scriptural support for that teaching perhaps someone can provide this. Additionally, how is one a Christian but not fully turned to Him? How does that reconcile with Romans chapter 5, some of which says: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. ..... 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

The Holy Spirit also indwells the 144,000 sealed witnesses of God does He not? If so, then He is present on earth, He could be present and yet not holding back the evil one whose time has come to deceive the world. The Holy Spirit is the source of the power of the Christian and is the reason why Christ told the disciples to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them. It is why the Holy Spirit indwells each of us, to give us the power to be witnesses for Christ and to make us into His image.

 

[Radagast]

Recently a lot of people are saying that the Rapture is coming soon, and that Jesus is coming for his spotless bride. They are also saying that a lot of Christians will not be raptured as well.

Not everybody believes in a Premill-style Rapture.

 

[Broken Fence]

So the 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Christ sealed by God are convicting people of sin? I am confused. It is my understanding only the Holy Spirit brings conviction. The witnesses in this instance are those who are chosen by God to witness to their Brethren of Christ.

Was my understanding. They were set apart. Holy unto the Lamb. They would preach the gospel.

 

[Davy]

I believe so.

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

EDIT: that is to say I believe that some people are saved out of the great tribulation. Whether or not any people who are already Christians go through the great tribulation is a matter of dispute.

Study your Bible, not men's doctrines. Christ's gathering of His Church is to Jerusalem where His feet are to touch down upon the Mount of Olives. Haven't they taught you about that event in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1?

Your teachers are also very wrong about our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse not being for the Church. It is... for the Church, not tribulation Jews. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Jesus is covering the same gathering events that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Also, the "last trump" change at the twinkling of an eye which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 is... the same 'trump of God' event in 1 Thessalonians 4. Both happen on the LAST DAY of this world, not prior to the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation like Jesus taught.

And even also, the idea of being 'Left-behind' is man's doctrine; it is not written. Those who are 'taken' at the end of Luke 17 Jesus showed are by the fowls who are gathered to feast on them. It's not a gathering to Jesus He shows. Being 'taken' is NOT what those in Christ want. We want to be found by Jesus still grinding at the mill, doing His work when He comes. That is what He showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

 

[JulieB67]

So the 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Christ sealed by God are convicting people of sin?

The 144, 000 aren't all Jewish. There are 12, 000 of each tribe. And some of those tribes later scattered all over the world. That's why Abraham's seed truly can't be counted just as prophecy states.

But as for the topic, I don't believe in a pretrib rapture..

 

[Davy]

So the 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Christ sealed by God are convicting people of sin? I am confused. It is my understanding only the Holy Spirit brings conviction. The witnesses in this instance are those who are chosen by God to witness to their Brethren of Christ.

That's another idea the hirelings God did not call have butchered.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 represent an election of the seed of Israel from Christ's Church at the end of this world. That 'sealing' mentioned in that chapter is about God's sealing of His servants for the coming tribulation. At Rev.7:9 with the "great multitude", those represent those sealed of the Gentiles. None of that is about a pre-trib rapture by the way. It's about those 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit for the end who make a stand against the Antichrist.

Of the 144,000, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent Jews.

The rest of those tribes represent lost tribes of the house of Israel per Bible history. Per Bible prophecy, those lost tribes would be scattered among the Gentiles, become as Gentiles. They and believing Gentiles would become Christ's Church.

All these of Rev.7 represent Christ's Church at the end, and they have a duty to Witness for Jesus during the coming tribulation. If you are 'sealed' for the end, it means you have a duty by The Holy Spirit against the beast system at the end of this world, along with God's two witnesses of Rev.11. And the devil is worried about it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Response to CaspianSails post number 21. Yes. Let me rephrase this a little and add evidence from the scriptures. So you have Christians who are born in Spirit and 'Christians' who call them selves Christians but are not of the Spirit. The 'Christians' maybe partly love Jesus and claim who He is but they love the world even more. You can say that they don't really love Him and really don't know Him for if they knew Him they would fall before His glory. Jesus is not 1st in their life, He is maybe 2nd, 3rd, 10th..
Jesus talks about these 'Christians' in Rev 3:16 'So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.' That's the best description of them. They are of no use, they are like salt that lost it's savour. They claim to be Christian but you can't tell them apart from a non-Christian, the real Christian, you can tell Him apart in the way he acts, reacts and speak of a non-Christian. They haven't fully repented, they haven't fully surrounded to Jesus because they are holding to things far more important to them than Jesus. But as long as they are alive, they still have a chance to fully repent.

Now the rapture happens, but as you pointed out only Christians born in Spirit will be raptured, the 'Christian' will be left here on Earth to face tribulation. One of the primary functions of the rapture is that it raptures the real Christians so they don't have to experience the antichrist/tribulation. Antichrist and tribulation go hand in hand. The antichrist is revealed (after rapture so Christians don't have to experience his destruction of the world) and he starts all these destructions as revealed in the book of Revelation = that is the tribulation.

You remember the parable of the Feast? God prepares a Feast invites many but they all make an excuse not to come because they have something more important to do, that is exactly who the 'Christians' are because they haven't been reborn and thus they still have their hearts of rock and they still sin. And that is the second function of the rapture, that it will take you to the Feast - the groom (Jesus) has prepared a Feast in Heaven for His bride (Church). So in the moment this happens, Jesus will come and collect His church, the fake 'Christian' will be like now? But I still have to finish this, finish that, I'm getting married in a week, my wife is pregnant I cannot go..because he is still holding to earthly things, whereas a true Christian will go in a moment, he wouldn't hesitate to go even in a middle of his wedding, for so much he loves the Lord.

So in the day of the rapture, the Christian and the 'non-Christian' will be separated. The scripture back this up 'some will be taken and some will be left'.Or 'they will be many that will say Lord, Lord, but Jesus will reply I never knew you' or the parable of 10 virgins, they all waiting for the groom, but 5 of them are foolish as they don't prepare themselves so they missed out and this is exactly as the 5 foolish non-Christian who foolishly does not prepare himself for His second coming, He is not prepared for the Feast so he is not raptured with the real Christian. And the Church, that means Christians born in the Holy Spirit will leave for the Feast along with the Holy Spirit, and then the antichrist is revealed and he does all these awful things like described in the Bible, because the Holy Spirit is blocking him from doing so, while the Holy Spirit is still here on Earth. But the Holy Spirit must one day leave in order for the tribulation can happen.

But you say then how can anyone repent and be born again if the Holy Spirit in not present here on Earth. Exactly. You can't be reborn again, but you can still chose the antichrist or resist and die because of it. You in that moment accepted Jesus fully, you have demonstrated that you love Jesus more than the world, more than self. You won't be born in Spirit but you still go to heaven because you finally accepted Jesus. Many sadly will accept the mark of the beast because the tribulation will be so bad they'll do anything for it to end and they'll accept the mark of the beast. However those who still remember the scriptures will say no to the beast even if it means their own death because they love Jesus more than their life.

But there Christians who resist the beast will miss the Feast, because they didn't prepare themselves for it. The Feast will be finished by the time they get to Heaven. These are then the Christians who in revelation chapter 6 ask for revenge 'o Lord how much longer' because they haven't been born of the Spirit so they asking for revenge. Christians who go to Heaven born in the Spirit don't ask for revenge even on the people who killed them for Jesus's name. Stephen in Acts, what does he say when Pharisees are ready to stone him? 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do' only a person born in Spirit ask for such thing. If he asks for forgiveness on Earth, why would he all of the sudden ask for revenge in Heaven. Thus we can conclude that the Christians who are asking for revenge in Heaven are those ones who resisted the beast and they were killed for it.

 

[Jan001]

Hi guys, I had a question.

Recently a lot of people are saying that the Rapture is coming soon, and that Jesus is coming for his spotless bride. They are also saying that a lot of Christians will not be raptured as well.

My question is, if you believe in Christ, and you are not raptured up during the time of the Rapture, can you still be saved during the Tribulation?

Here's a post from Robert Lyte on YouTube:

MANY WILL NOT MAKE THE RAPTURE
Contrary to popular belief, not many believers will make the rapture. The reason being, is because they wont be found worthy on the day the Lord calls his faithful bride. Many teach that as long as you are a believing Christian, that you will go in the rapture. This is lies. Truth is, as long as you are obedient to Christ, have learned your lessons to overcome your sins in his name, and have walked according to his will, you will be ready. If you are instead lukewarm and in your sins never committing a life to Christ being faithful to him, you will find yourself being left behind along with all those who never overcame the flesh, and their pet sins.

Everyone who is called, has a battle to endure and win. If you win you will go as an overcomer. If you remain proud and stuck in your sins with a hard heart, then you will have to remain behind for refining with many lashes during the Great Tribulation.

A lot of Christians are still living for their future dreams and career goals, many still chase after sports, fun, and entertainment. Others are ruined by their love of possession and money ever striving to acquire a good house for themselves, cars and possessions leaving little room in their hearts for the Lord. Others are filing their time with useless entertainment like video games, Netflix, and popular entertainment. They have no room in their minds for Jesus and remembering the Lord, because these other things fill out their time and interests. To them, reading about all God has done in the scriptures is boring and a chore. They are not filled with joy and happiness about all God has done. They are more focused on what fulfils their interests. These will be left behind to be tried with great tribulation to refine their faith, rid themselves of their idols, and be ready to die for the Lord and go be with him forever if they do not fail, fall away, and take the mark of the beast instead. Life is normal enough now, but when they come to take all your freedoms away, and close your internet off, and shutdown your money supply, and FORCE you to make a decision to either serve Christ or serve the devil and be doomed, then the heart will be tried as if with fire, and many will repent and do finally what many of us do today, learning our lessons, enduring, and perfecting in faith instead of just saying we are saved and obedience to God is works, and so bring upon ourselves the terrible troubles ahead. Take heart you who are pure in heart, who suffer for righteousness sake, and bear shame and laughter for Jesus' name in this wicked society, for Jesus is coming and will take us home to be part of the next chapter for earth. Remember it is the pure in heart who shall see God, and purity in heart comes from above so seek that if you lack and are being overwhelmed by the flesh.

Thank you guys,

boxman144

Jesus' first coming was 2000 years ago.

There will not be "a catching/gathering up" aka "rapture" until Jesus comes back for His second (final) coming and judgment of the nations.

How do we know this?

Paul explains that all the righteous dead will rise from the dead first and receive their new resurrection bodies, and then these people will accompany Jesus to gather up His faithful people from the earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep (physically dead), that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left (on earth), shall be caught up together (raptured) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The righteous who are dead will be resurrected first (given imperishable bodies) and then the righteous who are still alive on earth will receive their imperishable bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed (we will be given new "resurrection" bodies that will not ever sicken and die) , 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (receive imperishable bodies). 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

After the dead rise, Jesus will then judge all the peoples of all the nations. Matthew 25:31-46

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus Christ will not appear for His second coming until it is time for the lawless one (final antichrist) to be punished.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, ] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

Peter explains that the heavens will pass away and the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord's second coming.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

After the judgment, the evil people will go into eternal punishment and the righteous people will enter into eternal life with God. The new heavens and new earth will be enjoyed eternally by the righteous people of God. Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Blade]

Great question. The problem here is now you get into what some personally believe. The part that I think is wrong is "can you still be saved". Lets run with what you said.. missing the Rapture (caught up) your still saved. When Paul (His 1st letter) they were all watching waiting for His return. Paul said and then WE which remain will be caught up.

What I wonder about that is not written is.. if you are not watching looking for Him.. and He comes now.. do you believe you will sill go up? The one that knows He is not coming any moment.. does not believe. Does God force them? So we see how for SOME it will be like a thief in the night. Christ will come like a thief.. but Christ does not steal anything. He takes what is HIS and those not watching not ready no believing.. yeah.. I don't know.

So.. since PRE MID POST .. there is no clear verse.. I do as Paul said.. WE.. He put himself in that "caught up". So Christ went to His Fathers house to make us a home. So for Chris to take me to WHERE He is right now.. has to be would seem before the tribulation. For when Christ comes And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,".

Where He IS I will be. That bema seat..not on earth. So.. I just watch ready this moment I have.. I was not promised tomorrow. So I put faith in this moment. Its always NOW when He comes. I will never miss Him. That if your not looking not ready don't believe.. I have no answer.. I just believe from what what I read.. they were always ready and watching.. So I do

 

[Davy]

Jesus' first coming was 2000 years ago.

There will not be "a catching/gathering up" aka "rapture" until Jesus comes back for His second (final) coming and judgment of the nations.

How do we know this?

Paul explains that all the righteous dead will rise from the dead first and receive their new resurrection bodies, and then these people will accompany Jesus to gather up His faithful people from the earth:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep (physically dead), that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left (on earth), shall be caught up together (raptured) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The righteous who are dead will be resurrected first (given imperishable bodies) and then the righteous who are still alive on earth will receive their imperishable bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed (we will be given new "resurrection" bodies that will not ever sicken and die) , 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (receive imperishable bodies). 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

After the dead rise, Jesus will then judge all the peoples of all the nations. Matthew 25:31-46

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus Christ will not appear for His second coming until it is time for the lawless one (final antichrist) to be punished.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, ] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

Peter explains that the heavens will pass away and the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord's second coming.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

After the judgment, the evil people will go into eternal punishment and the righteous people will enter into eternal life with God. The new heavens and new earth will be enjoyed eternally by the righteous people of God. Matthew 25:31-46

You have left Bible Scripture in several areas in the above.

Jesus' 2nd coming happens on the last day of this present world, which is also when the following events will occur, very quickly...

[God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth.
[Battle of Armageddon, which is accompanied with the sudden destruction above.
[All peoples alive on earth changed at the twinkling of an eye to their spiritual bodies.
[The wicked subdued, Satan cast into his pit prison and locked for a thousand years.
[Christ appears coming in the clouds, bringing the asleep saints with Him, and His saints alive on earth are caught up with Him and them, on the way to Jerusalem.
[Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, bring all His saints with Him, beginning His thousand years reign over all nations.

 

[Olmhinlu]

Study your Bible, not men's doctrines. Christ's gathering of His Church is to Jerusalem where His feet are to touch down upon the Mount of Olives. Haven't they taught you about that event in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1?

Your teachers are also very wrong about our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse not being for the Church. It is... for the Church, not tribulation Jews. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Jesus is covering the same gathering events that Apostle Paul did in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Also, the "last trump" change at the twinkling of an eye which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 is... the same 'trump of God' event in 1 Thessalonians 4. Both happen on the LAST DAY of this world, not prior to the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation like Jesus taught.

And even also, the idea of being 'Left-behind' is man's doctrine; it is not written. Those who are 'taken' at the end of Luke 17 Jesus showed are by the fowls who are gathered to feast on them. It's not a gathering to Jesus He shows. Being 'taken' is NOT what those in Christ want. We want to be found by Jesus still grinding at the mill, doing His work when He comes. That is what He showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

You've lost me; it seems like you've addressed comments I didn't make. Can you clarify what you imagine my viewpoint to be so that I can make more sense of your response?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi guys, I had a question.

Recently a lot of people are saying that the Rapture is coming soon, and that Jesus is coming for his spotless bride. They are also saying that a lot of Christians will not be raptured as well.

My question is, if you believe in Christ, and you are not raptured up during the time of the Rapture, can you still be saved during the Tribulation?

Here's a post from Robert Lyte on YouTube:

MANY WILL NOT MAKE THE RAPTURE
Contrary to popular belief, not many believers will make the rapture. The reason being, is because they wont be found worthy on the day the Lord calls his faithful bride. Many teach that as long as you are a believing Christian, that you will go in the rapture. This is lies. Truth is, as long as you are obedient to Christ, have learned your lessons to overcome your sins in his name, and have walked according to his will, you will be ready. If you are instead lukewarm and in your sins never committing a life to Christ being faithful to him, you will find yourself being left behind along with all those who never overcame the flesh, and their pet sins.

Everyone who is called, has a battle to endure and win. If you win you will go as an overcomer. If you remain proud and stuck in your sins with a hard heart, then you will have to remain behind for refining with many lashes during the Great Tribulation.

A lot of Christians are still living for their future dreams and career goals, many still chase after sports, fun, and entertainment. Others are ruined by their love of possession and money ever striving to acquire a good house for themselves, cars and possessions leaving little room in their hearts for the Lord. Others are filing their time with useless entertainment like video games, Netflix, and popular entertainment. They have no room in their minds for Jesus and remembering the Lord, because these other things fill out their time and interests. To them, reading about all God has done in the scriptures is boring and a chore. They are not filled with joy and happiness about all God has done. They are more focused on what fulfils their interests. These will be left behind to be tried with great tribulation to refine their faith, rid themselves of their idols, and be ready to die for the Lord and go be with him forever if they do not fail, fall away, and take the mark of the beast instead. Life is normal enough now, but when they come to take all your freedoms away, and close your internet off, and shutdown your money supply, and FORCE you to make a decision to either serve Christ or serve the devil and be doomed, then the heart will be tried as if with fire, and many will repent and do finally what many of us do today, learning our lessons, enduring, and perfecting in faith instead of just saying we are saved and obedience to God is works, and so bring upon ourselves the terrible troubles ahead. Take heart you who are pure in heart, who suffer for righteousness sake, and bear shame and laughter for Jesus' name in this wicked society, for Jesus is coming and will take us home to be part of the next chapter for earth. Remember it is the pure in heart who shall see God, and purity in heart comes from above so seek that if you lack and are being overwhelmed by the flesh.

Thank you guys,

boxman144

The doctrine of "The Rapture" did not exist until the early 1800's. It is a major component of a system of theology known as Dispensationalism which is the product of an Irish ex-Anglican priest by the name of John Nelson Darby, and for a long time was limited largely to the religious group which he helped found, the Plymouth Brethren.

As the 19th century went on, and into the 20th century, these ideas traveled across the Atlantic. One of the earliest proponents of these doctrines was Dwight L. Moody, and through his influence these ideas did spread among some American Protestants. Moody established the Moody Bible Institute, which became part of a growing number of Bible institutes and schools during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Though perhaps the most influential person in establishing pockets of Dispensationalists in North America was Cyrus Scofield. Scofield was so impressed with Darby's ideas that he literally put them in the explanatory notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, a KJV study Bible that was exceedingly popular in the US in the early 20th century.

Eventually seminaries would be established that continued to popularize and perpetuate Dispensationalist doctrines, such as Dallas Theological Seminary. Meanwhile, as many Protestants and Evangelicals refuted these ideas as false and unbiblical, some seminaries were established in opposition to Dispensationalism, one of the more famous of these was Fuller Theological Seminary.

As many Neo-Evangelicals were being trained under Dispensationalist leaders during the course of the 20th century, these ideas came to seep deeper into the general conscious of many Neo-Evangelical churches and organizations. Traditional Mainline Protestantism began to decline in the US during the Counter Culture of the 1960's and 70's, largely as many saw institutional, organized religion as part of the general Establishment that needed to be resisted. On the flip of that, some Christians utilized the language of the Counter Culture, setting the groundwork for the Jesus People Movement, and a proliferation of Neo-Evangelical materials, churches, organizations, etc.

So that in the 70's, 80's, and 90's Neo Evangelicalism gained popular traction, even as traditional Protestantism declined some. It is in this period that powerful industries were developed, large publishing houses with a lot of books by certain people becoming more popular. For example, Hal Lindsay's The Late Great Planet Earth became a huge seller in the Evangelical community, and it promulgated these Dispensationalist, Rapture ideas. Lindsay even predicted when he thought the Rapture would happen in his earlier editions, but when his predictions did not pan out, later editions removed such predictions.

Then in the 90's the Left Behind series of books became US best sellers, written by Tim LaHaye, a tremendous proponent of Rapturist theology and Dispensationalism and Jerry Jenkins. Simultaneously part of, and also perhaps influential, in the further popularizing of these ideas and the further proponderance of books on the subject, both fictional narrative as well as non-fiction works.

Meanwhile, and this is important: This doctrine of the Rapture, and Dispensationalism on the whole, has never been what Christians have believed over the course of the last two thousand years.

Yes, if you look up pro-Rapture websites, you will find quotes and statements from individuals in history, which have been intentionally cherry-picked, and removed of any context in order to make it seem that this isn't a new idea.

But those websites are not being honest with you. They are intentionally quote-mining, cherry picking select quotes, without context, sometimes misquoting, sometimes without any citation or reference so that you can look it up for yourself.

Yes, Christ will return, He will come in glory as Judge of all flesh, living and dead, at the end of time. When He comes, we read in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 that both the dead will be raised, and those who are living will be caught together with the resurrected dead, to meet the returning Lord Jesus in the air. But, and this is really critical, no where does it say that Jesus returns secretly to beam Christians back into heaven. No. It says that when Christ returns the trumpet will sound, the dead will rise, and the living will meet the returning Lord as He comes down to earth as the Victorious King, the Judge of the living and the dead.

If you scour the Bible you will never ever find anything that says that Jesus will secretly beam us into heaven. That never happens, that is never spoken about. It is not biblical. It is not something which Christianity has ever taught or believed.

As such, and this is doubly more important, do not live in fear of something that is false. You will not miss "the rapture" no one will. When Christ comes, He comes, and every eye will see Him. Put your faith in Him, trust in what He has done. Trust in Him to save you, not in the fictions of men seeking to tickle the ears with doctrines of demons.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CaspianSails]

Response to Ivans reply to my earlier post, his #23.
With that out of the way. I don't think we disagree much here except I would substitute the word churched for your "christian". Or maybe those familiar with Christ but not knowing Him, knowing about Him maybe. For that group which in terms of what it means to be a Christian I would not include them. Those who have let the care of the world steal the Word from them perhaps is something that could be said. So yes, they could come to know Christ during the events of the Revelation of Christ or during the Tribulation and pay with their life perhaps for that faith. No doubt about it and it is absolutely true that the great throng or multitude are those who come out of the Revelation serving the Christ. As far as pre-trib, mid-trib, post trib, or rapture at all, I don't really have a strong position as in my mind it is inconsequential in terms of how I should live. Live for Christ and it does not really matter if or when one is taken. If we go, great. If we stay, God is our refuge and His strength is our strength. So I am bit of a non committed on this one as I can see and understand all points of view. Do I hope there is a pre-trib rapture certainly. But the God we serve who was able to deliver Daniel, Noah, and others is able to deliver me and you. Though he slay me, yet will I serve Him. Or as Shadrech, Meshach and Abednego said in Daniel chapter 3; "17 If the God whom we serve exists, then He is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace and from your hand, O king. 18 But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden statue you have set up.”… God is faithful.

I still cannot reconcile the Holy Spirit as absent during this time. It does not comport with many other scripture talking about the work of the Holy Spirit and the fact the Spirit is the person who calls men to Christ and who reveals Christ to all mankind who believe. It goes to the depravity question. A man in himself will never find Christ as we are lost in sin and without the Spirit drawing mankind and revealing the Christ to us, we are utterly lost. The very faith required to know Christ and follow Him also comes from the Holy Spirit as we do not have it in ourselves. Without the Holy Spirit I don't know that I can see, based on the preceding how one who did not receive Christ prior to the Holy Spirit departing, as some teach, will ever know Him afterwards. Does man have it in him? Something to ponder for myself.

 

[CaspianSails]

That's another idea the hirelings God did not call have butchered.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 represent an election of the seed of Israel from Christ's Church at the end of this world. That 'sealing' mentioned in that chapter is about God's sealing of His servants for the coming tribulation. At Rev.7:9 with the "great multitude", those represent those sealed of the Gentiles. None of that is about a pre-trib rapture by the way. It's about those 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit for the end who make a stand against the Antichrist.

Of the 144,000, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent Jews.

The rest of those tribes represent lost tribes of the house of Israel per Bible history. Per Bible prophecy, those lost tribes would be scattered among the Gentiles, become as Gentiles. They and believing Gentiles would become Christ's Church.

All these of Rev.7 represent Christ's Church at the end, and they have a duty to Witness for Jesus during the coming tribulation. If you are 'sealed' for the end, it means you have a duty by The Holy Spirit against the beast system at the end of this world, along with God's two witnesses of Rev.11. And the devil is worried about it.

I did not say that, it was quoted in something I replied to. However, I do disagree with the notion that they are gentiles. It is true the nation or tribes of Israel are dispersed among the gentiles but it is not impossible for God to call out those from the original twelve tribes. But I do see where you are going with this in that there is so much mixing of lineage between Jews and Gentiles is it worthy to say they are all Jewish in the real sense of lineage. Regardless it is clear that they are 12,000 from each tribe of Isreal, history aside.

 

[CaspianSails]

The doctrine of "The Rapture" did not exist until the early 1800's. It is a major component of a system of theology known as Dispensationalism which is the product of an Irish ex-Anglican priest by the name of John Nelson Darby, and for a long time was limited largely to the religious group which he helped found, the Plymouth Brethren.



As such, and this is doubly more important, do not live in fear of something that is false. You will not miss "the rapture" no one will. When Christ comes, He comes, and every eye will see Him. Put your faith in Him, trust in what He has done. Trust in Him to save you, not in the fictions of men seeking to tickle the ears with doctrines of demons.

-CryptoLutheran

A detailed post with lots of true historical information and a reason why I cannot commit to the rapture, among others. I would point out only that other traditional Protestant beliefs and orthodoxy were missing for almost 2000 years until the reformation but it does not make it incorrect. I agree one should never live in fear of an event that is not proven to occur. What is thought to be a rapture could easily be the event when Christ returns as conqueror as you say, when He comes every eye will see Him. This is not a hidden event. I have been steeped in dispensationalism since a child and while it does help order some things and to understand how God has and is working to some degree, the future, well, it is unknown until it happens. God did not deliver the Christians from the hands of those who inflicted death and torture during the inquisitions, an event barely mentioned, when many were put to death in the name of heresy by a church which in many ways was aligned with the governments at the time much as the false prophet is aligned with the antichrist. He did however be with them. If we are in Christ and He is in us, then we have nothing to fear and can like Stephen and others, lift our heads and see Christ even as the life is taken from us by those who hate us. So the real question is do we have that determination of belief and faith or will we forsake our savior if it comes to that in our lifetime? Or in the words of one who was probably not a follower, hope for the best (ok, yes it may be false hope) but prepare for the worst.

 

[ViaCrucis]

A detailed post with lots of true historical information and a reason why I cannot commit to the rapture, among others. I would point out only that other traditional Protestant beliefs and orthodoxy were missing for almost 2000 years until the reformation but it does not make it incorrect. I agree one should never live in fear of an event that is not proven to occur. What is thought to be a rapture could easily be the event when Christ returns as conqueror as you say, when He comes every eye will see Him. This is not a hidden event. I have been steeped in dispensationalism since a child and while it does help order some things and to understand how God has and is working to some degree, the future, well, it is unknown until it happens. God did not deliver the Christians from the hands of those who inflicted death and torture during the inquisitions, an event barely mentioned, when many were put to death in the name of heresy by a church which in many ways was aligned with the governments at the time much as the false prophet is aligned with the antichrist. He did however be with them. If we are in Christ and He is in us, then we have nothing to fear and can like Stephen and others, lift our heads and see Christ even as the life is taken from us by those who hate us. So the real question is do we have that determination of belief and faith or will we forsake our savior if it comes to that in our lifetime? Or in the words of one who was probably not a follower, hope for the best (ok, yes it may be false hope) but prepare for the worst.

Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation about the Reformation out there, and what it was about. And often it's Protestants who are misinformed.

The Reformation didn't introduce new doctrines, at least not the Evangelical/Magisterial Reformation. It's why for us Lutherans we understand ourselves as Catholics, because we never left the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is our Church, its history is our history as Lutherans. Terms like "Lutheran" and "Protestant" were largely exonyms, names given by others. Martin Luther and the other Evangelical reformers simply understood themselves to be Catholic Christians, but identified themselves as "Evangelical" and "Confessional", namely confessors of the Gospel.

When we had the opportunity to confess our faith, against the false charges of heresy by our opponents, at the Diet of Augsburg, we confessed in no uncertain terms:

"5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. 6] There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; 7] although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. 8] For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. 9] But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.

10] Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. 11] Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. 12] Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. 13] For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. 14] Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. 15] But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches." - Augsburg Confession, Article XXI, 5-15

The question of Justification, far from being an already settled matter as our opponents in Rome claimed, was very much at the time an open question.

The confession that we are justified by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone was neither a new doctrine, nor a kind of "restoration" of a primitive faith. As Luther consistently made reference to the teachings of the ancient and holy fathers.

So, for example, from the 4th century writer known as the Ambrosiaster (often attributed to St. Ambrose of Milan)

"'They are justified freely through His grace.' (1) They are justified freely because they are sanctified by faith alone as a gift of God, they do nothing and render nothing in return. 'Through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.' (2) The apostle bears witness that the grace of God is in Christ because by the will of God we have been redeemed by Christ so that we, having been set free, might be justified, as the apostle also says to the Galatians: 'Christ has redeemed us by offering himself for us.'" - The Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:24

This is important, because if Luther and the Reformers were simply introducing a brand new doctrine to Christianity, then it would be, by definition, a false doctrine.

But if it is indeed the faith of the apostles, and if it is by no means foreign to the teachers, doctors, and theologians of the Church Catholic--as we maintain--then the charge of novelty is shown false, and we are not heretics, but faithful sons and daughters of the Church Catholic.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jgr]

Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation about the Reformation out there, and what it was about. And often it's Protestants who are misinformed.

The Reformation didn't introduce new doctrines, at least not the Evangelical/Magisterial Reformation. It's why for us Lutherans we understand ourselves as Catholics, because we never left the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is our Church, its history is our history as Lutherans. Terms like "Lutheran" and "Protestant" were largely exonyms, names given by others. Martin Luther and the other Evangelical reformers simply understood themselves to be Catholic Christians, but identified themselves as "Evangelical" and "Confessional", namely confessors of the Gospel.

When we had the opportunity to confess our faith, against the false charges of heresy by our opponents, at the Diet of Augsburg, we confessed in no uncertain terms:

"5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. 6] There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; 7] although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. 8] For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. 9] But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.

10] Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. 11] Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. 12] Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. 13] For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. 14] Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. 15] But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches." - Augsburg Confession, Article XXI, 5-15

The question of Justification, far from being an already settled matter as our opponents in Rome claimed, was very much at the time an open question.

The confession that we are justified by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone was neither a new doctrine, nor a kind of "restoration" of a primitive faith. As Luther consistently made reference to the teachings of the ancient and holy fathers.

So, for example, from the 4th century writer known as the Ambrosiaster (often attributed to St. Ambrose of Milan)

"'They are justified freely through His grace.' (1) They are justified freely because they are sanctified by faith alone as a gift of God, they do nothing and render nothing in return. 'Through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.' (2) The apostle bears witness that the grace of God is in Christ because by the will of God we have been redeemed by Christ so that we, having been set free, might be justified, as the apostle also says to the Galatians: 'Christ has redeemed us by offering himself for us.'" - The Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:24

This is important, because if Luther and the Reformers were simply introducing a brand new doctrine to Christianity, then it would be, by definition, a false doctrine.

But if it is indeed the faith of the apostles, and if it is by no means foreign to the teachers, doctors, and theologians of the Church Catholic--as we maintain--then the charge of novelty is shown false, and we are not heretics, but faithful sons and daughters of the Church Catholic.

-CryptoLutheran

Does contemporary Lutheranism accept the papacy as authoritative in the same way as contemporary Roman Catholicism accepts the papacy as authoritative?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does contemporary Lutheranism accept the papacy as authoritative in the same way as contemporary Roman Catholicism accepts the papacy as authoritative?

"The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions, etc.].

And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicioius to the Church." - The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, 1-4)

Since the the Pope is outside of communion with us and because his claims to special primacy, ecclesiastical, and extra-ecclesiastical power are false and are out of line with the Catholic faith, we do not and indeed cannot accept the authority of the Pope. Insofar as he continues in his error this will remain the case. Should the Pope ever disavow these falsehoods and be restored to full communion, then he would be accepted as the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, which he is.

I fail to see what relevance this has though.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jgr]

"The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions, etc.].

And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicioius to the Church." - The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, 1-4)

Since the the Pope is outside of communion with us and because his claims to special primacy, ecclesiastical, and extra-ecclesiastical power are false and are out of line with the Catholic faith, we do not and indeed cannot accept the authority of the Pope. Insofar as he continues in his error this will remain the case. Should the Pope ever disavow these falsehoods and be restored to full communion, then he would be accepted as the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, which he is.

I fail to see what relevance this has though.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your clarification. Your identification as large "C" Catholic would be presumed by many or most to mean Roman Catholic, and thus obeisant to the papacy.

That presumption would be reinforced from the Augsburg declaration:

"5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers."

The original use of the term was small "c" catholic in "catholic Church", absent "Roman", by Ignatius in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans.

There is no Scriptural evidence, and insufficient credible historical evidence, that Peter was ever the bishop of Rome, or that he even ever went to Rome.

 

[Davy]

You've lost me; it seems like you've addressed comments I didn't make. Can you clarify what you imagine my viewpoint to be so that I can make more sense of your response?

You stated:
"EDIT: that is to say I believe that some people are saved out of the great tribulation. Whether or not any people who are already Christians go through the great tribulation is a matter of dispute."

Those statements you made support a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. The things I mentioned to you are doctrines within that theory. I find it hard to believe that you could make the above statements and not also be familiar with those things I mentioned that are part of that Pre-trib Rapture theory.

The fact that Christ's 2nd coming is AFTER the tribulation, and that also is when He gathers His Church, is NOT a matter of dispute IN GOD'S WORD. There is NO Scripture proof of a Pre-trib Rapture of the Church written anywhere in God's Word. With the Pre-trib folks there is only some men's fanciful beliefs formed outside of God's Word.