If you are Calvinist

[BobRyan]

Exactly so you agree we have the ability to decide within limits that He sets.

I agree that he sets the background condition - as the texts point out in my post - the Gospel to the entire world instead of "Gospel only for a few". Having done that, humanity has the environment in which to decide.

 

[BobRyan]

In an absolute sense no one has free will - you cant decide to become an elephant. .

Which has nothing to do with "free will". free will has to do with the ability to accept something that is offered or to choose to offer something, or to do something within your scope of action. A prisoner has the "ability" to walk 10 miles a day in a straight line - but is prevented from doing so by the walls. It is not his free will that prevents him.. .conditions around him prevents it.

A 6 year old might have the "ability" to get a car to move - given the keys and the right setup - but is prevented from doing it.

 

[Hammster]

Which has nothing to do with "free will". free will has to do with the ability to accept something that is offered or to choose to offer something, or to do something within your scope of action. A prisoner has the "ability" to walk 10 miles a day in a straight line - but is prevented from doing so by the walls. It is not his free will that prevents him.. .conditions around him prevents it.

A 6 year old might have the "ability" to get a car to move - given the keys and the right setup - but is prevented from doing it.

You are dangerously close to Pelagianism.

 

[BobRyan]

You are dangerously close to Pelagianism.

what makes you say that?

A. I never mentioned original sin.
B. I never say that the lost are able to live a sinless life without the work of the gospel, the Holy Spirit, new birth etc.

So how do you end up there?

 

[Hammster]

what makes you say that?

A. I never mentioned original sin.
B. I never say that the lost are able to live a sinless life without the work of the gospel, the Holy Spirit, new birth etc.

So how do you end up there?

free will has to do with the ability to accept something that is offered or to choose to offer something,

That.

 

[renniks]

No one who speaks of free will means any such thing. So I will mark you up as a believer in theistic determinism. Because if you say Free Will is a myth, then claiming any choices is just nonsensical. What you must then mean is we think we make choices but they are made for us in reality.

In an absolute sense no one has free will - you cant decide to become an elephant.

 

[Hammster]

No one who speaks of free will means any such thing. So I will mark you up as a believer in theistic determinism. Because if you say Free Will is a myth, then claiming any choices is just nonsensical. What you must then mean is we think we make choices but they are made for us in reality.

He didn’t say it’s a myth. You need to go back and read it again.

 

[JM]

I'll cut it straight for you, in a way most Calvinists will not, because they are afraid of offending or whatever.

Some questions for clarification since these ideas come up repeatedly on this section of the board.

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it? did you really have any other choice -- realistically?

Yes. God predestines all that comes to pass.

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it? Is God behind that ? Do they have any other choice but to differ with you on that doctrine if in fact God is sovereign? When you oppose them with a logical argument are you opposing God's sovereign choice in their life?

No right or wrong answer here - just curious how you think of it.

Yes. God predestines all that comes to pass.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[BobRyan]

That.

And my point is the same as the Calvinists make in John 6 - which is that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL mankind" as we see in John 12:32 - is more than sufficient to "enable" all the "choice" that depravity "disabled". And that is very different from the definition for pelagianism.

 

[BobRyan]

I'll cut it straight for you, in a way most Calvinists will not, because they are afraid of offending or whatever.

Yes. God predestines all that comes to pass.

Yes. God predestines all that comes to pass.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Since your answer is that God predestines the non-Calvinist to oppose the Calvinist's doctrine , then from a Calvinist POV - is it logical to try and refute that opposition once you recognize that it is in fact God that predestined it and surely NOT the choice of the person you are responding to? Why oppose God's sovereign will for predestination in that case? What is the Calvinist logic for it?

 

[Hammster]

And my point is the same as the Calvinists make in John 6 - which is that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL mankind" as we see in John 12:32 - is more than sufficient to "enable" all the "choice" that depravity "disabled". And that is very different from the definition for pelagianism.

So much for free will.

 

[JM]

Since your answer is that God predestines the non-Calvinist to oppose the Calvinist's doctrine , then from a Calvinist POV - is it logical to try and refute that opposition once you recognize that it is in fact God that predestined it and surely NOT the choice of the person you are responding to? Why oppose God's sovereign will for predestination in that case? What is the Calvinist logic for it?

Sure, it's logical that a works based religion would try to refute scripture. Happens everyday, all the time and is called rebellion.

This is the outworking of reprobation.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Carl Emerson]

No one who speaks of free will means any such thing. So I will mark you up as a believer in theistic determinism. Because if you say Free Will is a myth, then claiming any choices is just nonsensical. What you must then mean is we think we make choices but they are made for us in reality.

Nonsense - you are misrepresenting my comments.

If you cant understand what I am saying - please dont turn it into something else.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Definition of free will...

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion..."

This is what free will is...

The term is liberally used, but in fact no human is ever 'totally without constraint.'

Notice it is more than choosing, it is the power to act without constraint.

 

[Hammster]

Definition of free will...

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion..."

This is what free will is...

The term is liberally used, but in fact no human is ever 'totally without constraint.'

Notice it is more than choosing, it is the power to act without constraint.

Thanks. The Bible teaches free choice. It does not teach free will.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks. The Bible teaches free choice. It does not teach free will.

Exactly...

 

[renniks]

So much for free will.

Only if the drawing is irresistible, which is not confirmed by scripture.

 

[renniks]

Definition of free will...

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion..."

This is what free will is...

The term is liberally used, but in fact no human is ever 'totally without constraint.'

Notice it is more than choosing, it is the power to act without constraint.

See, you did it again. No one, literally no one, thinks we are free to act TOTALLY without constraint. You are changing the definition. Acting without the constraint of fate or necessity is far different than having no limits on our actions.
Humans have limits. But that doesn't mean our actions within those limits are constrained by fate or God or the universe. Free will exists, and we all know it does.

 

[renniks]

Thanks. The Bible teaches free choice. It does not teach free will.

Lol, you can't have real choices if there's no free will. You might have the illusion of choice.

 

[renniks]

Sure, it's logical that a works based religion would try to refute scripture. Happens everyday, all the time and is called rebellion.

This is the outworking of reprobation.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

There can be no rebellion if God predestines everything that I do. If I curse him to his face, it's only ultimately because he decreed me to do just that.