If you are Calvinist

[BobRyan]

Some questions for clarification since these ideas come up repeatedly on this section of the board.

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it? did you really have any other choice -- realistically?

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it? Is God behind that ? Do they have any other choice but to differ with you on that doctrine if in fact God is sovereign? When you oppose them with a logical argument are you opposing God's sovereign choice in their life?

No right or wrong answer here - just curious how you think of it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think you are assuming such folks don't believe in free will... correct?

I think you will find that folks who believe in predestination still believe in free will within bounds like the rest of us.

 

[Ilikecats]

Some questions for clarification since these ideas come up repeatedly on this section of the board.

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it? did you really have any other choice -- realistically?

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it? Is God behind that ? Do they have any other choice but to differ with you on that doctrine if in fact God is sovereign? When you oppose them with a logical argument are you opposing God's sovereign choice in their life?

No right or wrong answer here - just curious how you think of it.

1. When you do something wrong you are acting out what had been ordained. However God is not the actor who does it, you are and thus the responsibility falls on you.
2. Doctrinal disputes usually are caused by misunderstandings or someone following a false teacher. Saying that God ordained them to believe in a false doctrine is going above and beyond what a human can determine. How do you know the doctrinal position won’t shift after an explanation? You can not determine if you are acting against God’s sovereign decree unless he reveals it to you. I highly doubt that you can stop what God has put into motion and am pretty sure that it was all part of God’s plan from the beginning. God is immutable and omniscient. He cannot learn something new so if there was a plan and purpose for creation then surely enough it must be taking place.

 

[Hammster]

Some questions for clarification since these ideas come up repeatedly on this section of the board.

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it? did you really have any other choice -- realistically?

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it? Is God behind that ? Do they have any other choice but to differ with you on that doctrine if in fact God is sovereign? When you oppose them with a logical argument are you opposing God's sovereign choice in their life?

No right or wrong answer here - just curious how you think of it.

1. No. Yes.

2. Yes. Yes (I can’t believe you are asking if God is behind what He ordains). It’s their will to differ. No.

 

[Palmfever]

Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Matthew, 22:14 Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
We are more than cells, more than pre-programmed particles. Calvinists may desire to believe in casual determinism, but we become more than the sum of our chemistry, when God breathes the spirit of life into us. Genesis, 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“ The physical components of our natural containers were complete yet remained uninhabited, unanimated until God imbued life.

Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life… ” Choose Life, contrary to Calvin’s, Darwin's and sciences assertion.
Is Calvinism Just?

 

[Ilikecats]

Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Matthew, 22:14 Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
We are more than cells, more than pre-programmed particles. Calvinists may desire to believe in casual determinism, but we become more than the sum of our chemistry, when God breathes the spirit of life into us. Genesis, 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“ The physical components of our natural containers were complete yet remained uninhabited, unanimated until God imbued life.

Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life… ” Choose Life, contrary to Calvin’s, Darwin's and sciences assertion.
Is Calvinism Just?

Matthew 22:14 is a conclusion of a parable that illustrates why people will be left out of the kingdom of heaven. They either refuse the invitation (the call) or accept the invitation (the call) but are not prepared for it. The ones who attend the wedding feast were all chosen. The call that Paul references is a call specifically regarding those predestined. The chosen part is the predestined. It could be looked at as those he choose to predestine he also called. The choosing part occurs before the call so there is no conflict between the verses.

 

[Palmfever]

Matthew 22:14 is a conclusion of a parable that illustrates why people will be left out of the kingdom of heaven. They either refuse the invitation (the call) or accept the invitation (the call) but are not prepared for it. The ones who attend the wedding feast were all chosen. The call that Paul references is a call specifically regarding those predestined. The chosen part is the predestined. It could be looked at as those he choose to predestine he also called. The choosing part occurs before the call so there is no conflict between the verses.

The church, the believers as a group are the chosen/elect same word. And no Christ was not confused when HE said, "For many are called, but few are chosen."
In Christ

 

[Neostarwcc]

1. No. Yes.

2. Yes. Yes (I can’t believe you are asking if God is behind what He ordains). It’s their will to differ. No.

^ This.

 

[Jipsah]

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it?

No. Your sins are your own idea.

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it?

Again, no. So if you end up SDA it's your own fault (OK, sorry, but I couldn't resist.)

 

[Jonaitis]

Some questions for clarification since these ideas come up repeatedly on this section of the board.

1. If you are a 4 or 5 point Calvinist and you do something wrong - is God predestining you to do it? did you really have any other choice -- realistically?

2. If someone differs with you on some point of doctrine - did God ordain them to do it? Is God behind that ? Do they have any other choice but to differ with you on that doctrine if in fact God is sovereign? When you oppose them with a logical argument are you opposing God's sovereign choice in their life?

No right or wrong answer here - just curious how you think of it.

God foreordains what will happen, but he is not responsible for the actions made. It is a paradox, just as the Trinity, that we cannot fully understand. He has predetermined what we would consciously and willingly choose. By nature, we love sin. God may ordain the means to restrain us from sinning one way and/or allowing us to sin in another way, yet the choice was made by us. His restraining grace can regulate the depravity of men and their choices. If I murdered someone, God allowed me to act on my wicked intentions. If I stole something, God allowed me to act on those covetous affections. His allowing evil is not the same as participating in it. His allowing is in step with his predetermination. He may predetermine that I would respond to the gospel, providing the means for me to hear and believe it. He may predetermine someone else to have their hearts remain closed, their ears remain dull and their eyes remain blind. He doesn't have to actively work in the person to commit evil, he can just lessen his restraining hand on a wicked heart already bent toward sin. So if you commit an offense, God predetermined to give you reign in your wickedness at that point in your life. The responsibility was yours in the end.

God's purposes are often shrouded in mystery, but they always lead to his glory.

 

[BobRyan]

God foreordains what will happen, but he is not responsible for the actions made.

That's a problem

It is a paradox,

potato - potahto

If I murdered someone, God allowed me to act on my wicked intentions. If I stole something, God allowed me to act on those covetous affections. His allowing evil is not the same as participating in it.

So then you consider it right to try and stop someone from stealing - whom God is allowing to steal and you don't see that as going against God's will for you to try to stop what God is clearly allowing?

If that is the case - how is that not Arminian?

 

[BobRyan]

No. Your sins are your own idea.

Did God predestine it ?

if someone commits a crime and God predestined it - can you stop it?
If someone differs with Calvinism is it up to Calvinists to change that? or was it predestined?

 

[Jonaitis]

So then you consider it right to try and stop someone from stealing - whom God is allowing to steal and you don't see that as going against God's will for you to try to stop what God is clearly allowing?

If that is the case - how is that not Arminian?

What if it was God's will for him to steal so that you would stop him? This sort of thing is what happened to the Lord Jesus Christ. God allowed wicked men to act in sin to serve Jesus' act of redemption. God allowed the Jews and Romans to fulfill Jesus' mission by acting in their own sin. God will use one man's disobedience for another's obedience for his own glory.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you are assuming such folks don't believe in free will... correct?

I think you will find that folks who believe in predestination still believe in free will within bounds like the rest of us.

If a 4 or 5 point Calvinist is claiming "free will" - then how do they fit predestination into it? Does someone with free will who opposes Calvinism operating outside of predestination? If not ... then is it opposing the predestination choice of God to try and get them to not oppose Calvinism?

 

[BobRyan]

What if it was God's will for him to steal so that you would stop him?

So you try to stop one person from stealing but are then too tired after all that effort to get a second person to stop stealing. After sleeping on it and deciding no matter what you chose it was God who predestined it - then maybe take off for a few weeks,, because that will be predestined as well... then eat a big helping of ice cream instead of stopping someone from stealing ... and that will be God's will as well?

It appears that in that model you can choose anything you want and put the label on it "God's will" or "God predestined that"

By the same token anyone who posts an opposing view to Calvinism can say "and God willed this" or "and God predestined it" in the discussion... and the Calvinist must agree?

I agree that God knows the future BTW.

So if anyone differs with my view I would have to say "God knew you would say that". And they can say to me "you know of course... that God already knew I would not agree with you on that point"... and of course I would have to agree to that.

 

[Jonaitis]

So you try to stop one person from stealing but are then too tired after all that effort to get a second person to stop stealing. After sleeping on it and deciding no matter what you chose it was God who predestined it - then maybe take off for a few weeks,, because that will be predestined as well... then eat a big helping of ice cream instead of stopping someone from stealing ... and that will be God's will as well?

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." - Proverbs 16:9

 

[BobRyan]

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." - Proverbs 16:9

How then can you be held accountable for not stopping someone from doing a crime -- if it is God who willed it and nothing you decide could change that?

 

[Jonaitis]

How then can you be held accountable for not stopping someone from doing a crime -- if it is God who willed it and nothing you decide could change that?

I think you are confusing God's preceptive will with his decretive will. The former relates to what is good and right, the latter refer to divine decree. It was God's decretive will for Moses to commit murder, in order that fleeing from Pharaoh he may live in Media and become a shepherd of Jethro's flocks, thus leading to the theophany of the burning bush and his commission as prophet. But, it certainly was not God's preceptive will for him to do such a sinful act against a person made in the image of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If a 4 or 5 point Calvinist is claiming "free will" - then how do they fit predestination into it?

For this conversation to have real meaning you would have to define 'free will' first.

 

[BobRyan]

For this conversation to have real meaning you would have to define 'free will' first.

If you have free will - then God foreknows you will do something but He does not force you to do it.

If you have free will - then if God offers the Gospel you are free to accept or reject as opposed to simply being enslaved to the sinful nature as the "answer for every decision". The fact that God enables that choice by supernaturally drawing all mankind to himself - does not destroy your free will - it enables it. Because you could still decline.

if you have free will then "what caused you to choose as you did" is out of the question. It no longer applies.