if the people end up in Hell, does that mean God is losing a battle to Satan?

[Sanoy]

There was no revelation; only illusion.

You are in no position to say that.

 

[cvanwey]

According to Romans 1-2, we all have a sufficient amount of revelation to avail us of God's grace and make a heart response to that revelation. Head knowledge of God isn't a factor in that. We know what is right or wrong, and our "conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus".

Are you saying it is then possible to conclude the Bible as just another completely man-made book? But as long as the human makes the 'correct moral' choices in life, which may so please the existing God in which they doubt exists, they've got a shot at God's heaven?

How does this work exactly, when someone whom doubts the mere existence of Jesus (postmortem), reads passages from the Bible, and also concludes them as 'just wrong'? (i.e.)

Slavery:
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:20-21
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Ephesians 6:5

Women's inequality:
1 Timothy 2:11-12
Numbers 31:17-18

Too many to list....

 

[Sanoy]

Are you saying it is then possible to conclude the Bible as just another completely man-made book? But as long as the human makes the 'correct moral' choices in life, which may so please the existing God in which they doubt exists, they've got a shot at God's heaven?

No, I am stating what Paul said, which I quoted. their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus

 

[Tinker Grey]

You are in no position to say that.

With respect to myself? Yeah, I most certainly am.

 

[Sanoy]

With respect to myself? Yeah, I most certainly am.

Yeah, hows that?

 

[cvanwey]

No, I am stating what Paul said, which I quoted. their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus

Okay, I want to hear [your] words. What is Paul saying exactly here? What do [you] gather from this one passage? As I'm sure you are aware, we have many denominations. Many translations differ.

 

[Sanoy]

Okay, I want to hear [your] words. What is Paul saying exactly here? What do [you] gather from this one passage?

It is one's conflicting thoughts, to the revelation one has, that accuses or excuses them.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yeah, hows that?

If a revelation fails, then it wasn't a revelation. Does your god fail? But go ahead, imply that I'm a liar again.

 

[cvanwey]

It is one's conflicting thoughts, to the revelation one has, that accuses or excuses them.

So are you saying that someone like @Tinker Grey , or myself, might just be 'confused', thinking we never received some sort of revelation from your believed upon God; when in reality, we did? And somehow, we just don't see it? And if this is the case, we may possibly be pardoned, as we thought we never received revelation at all, which in turn, makes us think there exists no such God to begin with? And if we make the correct 'moral decisions' in life, we may be excused?

 

[Sanoy]

If a revelation fails, then it wasn't a revelation. Does your god fail?

So no explanation on how you are in any position to speak the truth on that matter? Further, I don't see how this is sequitur.

 

[Tinker Grey]

So no explanation on how you are in any position to speak the truth on that matter? Further, I don't see how this is sequitur.

By the very nature of "revelation", if I fail to a see a revelation, there wasn't one. I was not enlightened. If there was an attempt to enlighten me, it failed. Does your god fail?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

And if God is winning, how can that be, based on the results?

They only wish to be with their family.

Some have God as their Father
and will join with Him in heaven.

Others have the devil as their Father
and will join him in the Hot Place.

M-Bob

 

[Sanoy]

So are you saying that someone like @Tinker Grey , or myself, might just be 'confused', thinking we never received some sort of revelation from your believed upon God; when in reality, we did? And somehow, we just don't see it? And if this is the case, we may possibly be pardoned, as we thought we never received revelation at all, which in turn, makes us think there exists no such God to begin with? And if we make the correct 'moral decisions' in life, we may be excused?

One has moral faculties, which tell them right and wrong. Those faculties themselves are sufficient revelation from which to have a response, just as ones intellectual faculties are sufficient for an intellectual response (learning). You have all sorts of faculties which inform your consciousness, that is true whether there is a God or not.

There are many people convinced by what they observe of themselves that they will be saved or not, but they are not judged on what they observe of themselves. Luke 18:9-14

 

[Sanoy]

By the very nature of "revelation", if I fail to a see a revelation, there wasn't one. I was not enlightened. If there was an attempt to enlighten me, it failed. Does your god fail?

Are you going to tell me what position you are in to make truth claims about me? You have so hastily tried to depart from that claim that I don't even know what you are talking about anymore.

 

[BigV]

I don't think it's wrong. I have left Christianity, perhaps like you, but I came back. And I left, even after seeing an Angel. Those things do not save, they do however increase the responsibility one has toward the revelation they did have.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Sanoy]

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, if you don't mind my asking?

I am Berean, I am a member of a pentacostal church, and I hold to the apostles creed.

 

[BigV]

You used to be a Christian and you don't know this? Or are you blocking Him from mind.

I know that Jesus had to show up in person in order to teach his disciples. And Saul, who later became Paul, received a personal revelation. And you know what the best part is? None of the above violated their free will. Either that, or God has no problems violating free will.

Lastly, lets say I die and now am expected to be severely punished, eternally or otherwise. What happens when I refuse that punishment? God will administer it anyways, am I right? Funny how 'free will" works, ain't it?

 

[cvanwey]

One has moral faculties, which tell them right and wrong.

True. But what happens when what they perceive as 'right' and 'wrong' changes? "What' exactly tells them what is 'right' and 'wrong'? This might be where you and I differ...?

 

[Sanoy]

I know that Jesus had to show up in person in order to teach his disciples. And Saul, who later became Paul, received a personal revelation. And you know what the best part is? None of the above violated their free will. Either that, or God has no problems violating free will.

Lastly, lets say I die and now am expected to be severely punished, eternally or otherwise. What happens when I refuse that punishment? God will administer it anyways, am I right? Funny how 'free will" works, ain't it?

God already knew the disciples, that is why He chose them.

In life you either love the Image of God, or something else. In the end you get what you loved. I mentioned this in detail in your previous thread. The "punishment" you speak of is a natural consequence of your own desire. The fire is already inside you and God is keeping you wet. In the end you are given over to what you want. Taking you to be with Him would be forcing His will upon you, not casting you away from Him.

 

[Sanoy]

True. But what happens when what they perceive as 'right' and 'wrong' changes? "What' exactly tells them what is 'right' and 'wrong'? This might be where you and I differ...?

The question doesn't matter, because, as Paul says, it is their thoughts upon those things that accuse or excuse them.