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if the people end up in Hell, does that mean God is losing a battle to Satan?

cvanwey

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The question doesn't matter, because, as Paul says, it is their thoughts upon those things that accuse or excuse them.

Why would I care what "Paul" says, anymore than what [you] or I says? We are all three humans, aren't we?

I listen to people all the time, whom state they speak directly to God, and God answers them. What makes you think "Paul's" statement is directly from God?

I'll give you an example...

When does a) killing become b) murder? (i.e) From a) justified to b) unjustified?


"God guided me in this decision to kill person X."
If the person's intent was pure, meaning they earnestly think God speaks to them, are they accountable? If not, this begs the question, is this person clinically schizophrenic/other, receiving revelation from God, or maybe Satan was the culprit?

If the person acted in earnest, according to Paul, does God accuse or excuse?
 
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cvanwey

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The question doesn't matter, because, as Paul says, it is their thoughts upon those things that accuse or excuse them.

Second response :)

Are you/Paul saying that if the intent is pure - (thought to be for 'good'), no matter what the action, then they are excused?
 
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Carl Emerson

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This is just a claim. But according to the Bible, we find that God's plans were ruined by Satan.

God foreknew the outcome of Eden before creation.

Eden was allowed to happen to kick off His plan of redemption.

Jesus sealed a people to Himself to fellowship with Him in eternity. none are lost.

This was achieved through the Cross.

No ruined plans there...
 
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cvanwey

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God foreknew the outcome of Eden before creation.

Eden was allowed to happen to kick off His plan of redemption.

Jesus sealed a people to Himself to fellowship with Him in eternity. none are lost.

This was achieved through the Cross.

No ruined plans there...

I know you can find verses to support your assertion. However, you also come across verses which state:

"The Lord regretted that He had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

Seems odd that God would 'regret' anything? If He has perfect foreknowledge, regret would not be an emotion such an agent would carry. The passage might instead state something to the effect of... "Already knowing humans would defy Him, He issued a flood.'
 
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Tinker Grey

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Are you going to tell me what position you are in to make truth claims about me? You have so hastily tried to depart from that claim that I don't even know what you are talking about anymore.
You missed something.
With respect to myself? Yeah, I most certainly am.
Emphasis added.
 
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BigV

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God foreknew the outcome of Eden before creation.

Eden was allowed to happen to kick off His plan of redemption.

Jesus sealed a people to Himself to fellowship with Him in eternity. none are lost.

This was achieved through the Cross.

No ruined plans there...

I realize that is what your Bible says, but the Bible also says that God does not wish that anyone perish. To think that God foreknew all these things and still, majority of people do perish... What does it say about God? I think he is losing the battle to Satan, unless God just doesn't care about how many people make it into heaven. Seems like a waste of resources.

PS. I wish I had advocates like you guys. I could have been omnipotent and most wise being. Just explain away all of my screwups and I'm perfect.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I know you can find verses to support your assertion. However, you also come across verses which state:

"The Lord regretted that He had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

Seems odd that God would 'regret' anything? If He has perfect foreknowledge, regret would not be an emotion such an agent would carry. The passage might instead state something to the effect of... "Already knowing humans would defy Him, He issued a flood.'

Having perfect foreknowledge does not prevent Him from responding in real time with emotion.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I realize that is what your Bible says, but the Bible also says that God does not wish that anyone perish. To think that God foreknew all these things and still, majority of people do perish... What does it say about God?

I says that He is not indifferent to tragic outcomes.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I think he is losing the battle to Satan, unless God just doesn't care about how many people make it into heaven. Seems like a waste of resources.

Well take a peek at Revelation - it all turns out right in the end, and yeah that's right, Satan is completely defeated...
 
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cvanwey

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Having perfect foreknowledge does not prevent Him from responding in real time with emotion.

I agree. He can have emotion. Just like if I know I have to shoot a horse with a broken leg. I know the horse is dead, ahead of time; even before I carry out the act. But there's a difference between being sad by something you know you have to do, verses regretting having to do it. (i.e.)

"Man, I regret giving that loaded gun to that uninformed child. If I have only foreseen what was to come..."

"Dang it, I really regret not asking that girl out. Now she's with so-and-so instead."

It seems as if the author in Genesis 6:6-8 portrays God as having 'regret', (i.e.) wishing He had a 'do-over'.

Maybe God had confidence He would ultimately win in the end, but had no clue how it was going to pan out?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I think the actual emotion God experienced was beyond human comprehension and the word regret was used as the best choice available...

regretted
וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם (way·yin·nā·ḥem)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Nifal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 5162: To sigh, breathe strongly, to be sorry, to pity, console, rue, to avenge

It can for example mean 'to pity' illustrating that He was sorry for them...
 
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Carl Emerson

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Maybe God had confident He would ultimately win in the end, but had no clue how it was going to pan out?

So the One who lives outside of time and holds every atom in the universe together didnt know ?????

Maybe it's time to worship Him for who He is... Today is the day of Salvation.
 
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cvanwey

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I think the actual emotion God experienced was beyond human comprehension and the word regret was used as the best choice available...

regretted
וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם (way·yin·nā·ḥem)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Nifal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 5162: To sigh, breathe strongly, to be sorry, to pity, console, rue, to avenge

It can for example mean 'to pity' illustrating that He was sorry for them...

Disagree. God would know 'regret' causes confusion. He had other word choices, and 'regret' does not appear to be the best one to convey a concise message, void of confusion.

Regret 'can' mean many things. However, as in the provided passage portrays, Genesis 6:6-8, if God had not found favor in Noah, He would have simply started over completely, regretting His first go-around.
 
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BigV

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Well take a peek at Revelation - it all turns out right in the end, and yeah that's right, Satan is completely defeated...

Well, that's what the Revelations says, BUT Satan does get his plan accomplished. Most of humanity ends up in Hell. Not sure if you play chess, but there is a play out there, where your opponent loses all of their big pieces (Queen, Rooks, Bishops, etc...) and still ends up checkmating you with their pawns.

To me, the Revelations is God showing off his mighty strategy of taking down Satan's big pieces, while Satan checkmates him with a pawn. God's grand plan for humanity fails, since most humans end up in a place which God did not prepare for them. So, yes, God wins the battles, but still losing to his creation.

Now, if you start claiming that even one saved soul is a victory for God, then you are acknowledging the very bad predicament God found himself in. Someone with perfect foreknowledge and all. Unbelievable.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Disagree. God would know 'regret' causes confusion. He had other word choices, and 'regret' does not appear to be the best one to convey a concise message, void of confusion.

Regret 'can' mean many things. However, as in the provided passage portrays, Genesis 6:6-8, if God had not found favor in Noah, He would have simply started over completely, regretting His first go-around.

The Hebrew word וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם has a range of meanings and may not properly convey the emotion God had...

There will also be some anthropomorphisation going on as His emotions do not necessarily have human equivalents.

God foreknew that Noah would be righteous but expressing emotion in real time in relation to present circumstances is understandable and does not constitute contradiction.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, that's what the Revelations says, BUT Satan does get his plan accomplished. Most of humanity ends up in Hell. Not sure if you play chess, but there is a play out there, where your opponent loses all of their big pieces (Queen, Rooks, Bishops, etc...) and still ends up checkmating you with their pawns.

To me, the Revelations is God showing off his mighty strategy of taking down Satan's big pieces, while Satan checkmates him with a pawn. God's grand plan for humanity fails, since most humans end up in a place which God did not prepare for them. So, yes, God wins the battles, but still losing to his creation.

Now, if you start claiming that even one saved soul is a victory for God, then you are acknowledging the very bad predicament God found himself in. Someone with perfect foreknowledge and all. Unbelievable.

Yes... the concept of a remnant is strong throughout scripture. But to suggest this is in some way a loss however makes no sense... It was never about quantity.
 
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BigV

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Yes... the concept of a remnant is strong throughout scripture. But to suggest this is in some way a loss however makes no sense... It was never about quantity.

Well, I am not sure how you can say it was never about quantity if God desires all to be saved. He wants everyone to be in heaven. That's a mainstream Christian teaching. But, for whatever reason, all God gets is the remnant. How is that not a failure, considering he wants all saved?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, I am not sure how you can say it was never about quantity if God desires all to be saved. He wants everyone to be in heaven. That's a mainstream Christian teaching. But, for whatever reason, all God gets is the remnant. How is that not a failure, considering he wants all saved?

God wants everyone to be in heaven? Really? Where does it say this specifically? If you're thinking of 2 Peter 3:9, you'll have to wade through a conceptual swamp of 3 whole chapters to pull this one verse out and understand it within the overall biblical context in which it is situated.

(THEN, you'll have to hermeneutically pull the whole letter of 2 Peter out from the historical context in which it may have been written and haggle over it's authenticity with the rest of us, especially since it is, and has been, a 'disputed' letter.)

No, I think it's safe to say that what it "means" in 2 Peter 3:9, and the similar allusions about the whole world being loved by God which we find in the Gospel of John, is that God is willing to take those persons--whomever they they may be--whom He has called to come to Him for salvation. He's patient and He waits for us. But it doesn't mean that God will directly chase after every single Tom, Richard and Harry in this lifetime in some obviously direct and physical or verbal way.

Of course, being the kind of Inclusivist that I am, I'm only able to say that those persons (probably mostly men o_O) who directly and knowingly refuse and reject Jesus Christ straight out are in danger of eventually landing themselves in Hot Water. The rest of humanity who truly has "never heard of Christ" will be under another form of Judgment; it'll be one that, in the here and now, I don't know much about and since I can't have any complete insight about it, I can't say for sure whether it will bode well or not for these lesser enlightened individuals. They will remain a Big ? in the understanding of the rest of us until all is said and done by Christ and God the Father.

But again, the rejectors of Christ....................well, they will have had their opportunity and they will have squandered it, and their failure in this regard, hand in hand as it will be with the Devil's work, will be ultimately on them.

It's not a failure on God's part if much of the world of humanity willingly chooses to turn its backs on Him. No, it's not His fault. It might be partially the Devil's fault, and it might partially be any one human being's fault, but it's not God's fault.
 
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But this supposes God needs to save everyone or the majority to win, which is a bit of a too 'simple' thinking.
No, it's simple logic.
God wants all people to be saved (He must do, to want anything else would be immoral) and i working to achieve this.
The devil wants all people to be damned. He too is working to achieve this.
Since God and the devil are both working to achieve opposite ends, they are in competition.
And since more people go to hell than heaven, the devil is winning the competition.
It's not 'too simple'. It's just simple.
 
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