if the people end up in Hell, does that mean God is losing a battle to Satan?

[BigV]

Learn some simple logic. If 1 and 0 is are given as true choice, some with choose 0 while others 1, mathematically and statistically!

You are missing the point. To use your analogy, all people are born with a propensity to desire and chose 0, where as the omnipotent and good and loving Creator of the Universe wants people to chose 1. Where as this Creator's enemy wants everyone to chose 0. And by looking at sheer numbers, Satan is winning. How can that be? Did God create something he is not able to untangle?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

God desires that all be saved. Free will is why many will become tares. Free will is why many will become wheat. I wouldn't consider it winning to have tares in a loaf, they are poison. The whole contrived question is ridiculous, if someone doesn't love you does that mean you lost? No, it means someone doesn't love you.

It's neither a contrived question nor ridiculous; it's the obvious corollary of how the Christian system is set up. Don't blame us if it doesn't make sense, or for pointing it out.

You say that God desires that all be saved. Very good. We also know that, in the Christian religion, the devil desires that all be damned. Therefore, God and the devil, no matter how they or others see it, are in fact in competition. They have to be, because they are both working to achieve mutually incompatible ends.

And in this competition, the devil is clearly winning. You'd agree that he is actively working to persuade people to reject God, while God is actively working to persuade people that He loves them, and that they should love Him in return.

The whole contrived question is ridiculous, if someone doesn't love you does that mean you lost? No, it means someone doesn't love you.

See how you're playing with word meanings here? It's true, if someone doesn't love you, no, that doesn't mean you lost - unless you're trying to persuade them to love you, in competition with another agent who is trying to persuade them not to love you.

Then it's a competition. Billions and billions of competitions. Which God is losing more of.

 

[smithed64]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be, based on the results?

Omniscient (all knowing) (1 John 3:20)
When we say that God is omniscient (all knowing), we are saying that God's knowledge is perfect and that God's perfect knowledge has always been possessed by Him from all eternity. He knows all things, in all places, at all times. There is nothing that God does not know. Furthermore, God knows all things that could exist, but do not. This means that God knows all things potential as well as actual. God's perfect knowledge also includes Himself. He knows Himself perfectly and completely. God does not look into the future to see what will happen and thereby learn. This would violate God's omniscience.

Omnipresent (everywhere) (Psalm 139:7-12)
omnipresent (everywhere), we are saying that God exists in all places, and in all times. He is not limited by time and space. This does not mean that the universe is part of God, or that God is part of the universe, nor does it mean that God is dispersed throughout the universe. It means that all that exists is before God, and known by God. Also, even though God is in all places at all times, He is capable of manifesting Himself to us in a localized sense. We see these appearances of God (theophanies), in the Old Testament, and many other places:
(Gen. 17:1); (Gen. 18:1); (Ex. 6:2-3)

Omnipotent (All Powerful)

"Ah Lord God! Behold, Thou hast made the heavens and the earth by Thy great power and by Thine outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for Thee...27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me? (Jer. 32:17,27 ).

God is omnipotent (all powerful), we are saying that God can do all things consistent with His nature. This is a very important point to understand. We are not saying that God can do all things conceivable. We are saying that God can only do those things consistent with His own nature, and which are not logically impossible.

Wanted to give you the right words for your "omni" comment.
Creation doesn't out do God. As the verse from Jeremiah above shows us. Nothing is too difficult for Him.

Your second question, is a completely different subject.
First, it's not a game. There are no winners or losers as in a game. It's warfare over the souls of Man. There is the Saved and unsaved. Those who realize that they are sinners, are in rebellion against God and sin directly against Him and they Repent of their sins, Place their Trust in Christ alone, by Grace alone and by Faith alone.

Satan, is defeated by God. He's already lost the war. He just denies it. The day Jesus Christ died, He thought He won, Three days later Christ showed Him just how wrong Satan was. He rose from the dead and defeated Death, Hell and the Grave. By His mercy and Grace, that is offered to us. You either accept that gift of eternal life or you don't.
If you do, You repent, you will receive the reward of eternal life with God.
If you don't, God loves you so much that he would never force himself nor what He wants you to have on you. He will leave you with exactly what you want. An eternity without God. Which is an eternity without hope, Love, grace, mercy.The knowledge that you had the opportunity to be with Him, will always be there and you can't have it.

 

[Sanoy]

It's neither a contrived question nor ridiculous; it's the obvious corollary of how the Christian system is set up. Don't blame us if it doesn't make sense, or for pointing it out.

You say that God desires that all be saved. Very good. We also know that, in the Christian religion, the devil desires that all be damned. Therefore, God and the devil, no matter how they or others see it, are in fact in competition. They have to be, because they are both working to achieve mutually incompatible ends.

And in this competition, the devil is clearly winning. You'd agree that he is actively working to persuade people to reject God, while God is actively working to persuade people that He loves them, and that they should love Him in return.


See how you're playing with word meanings here? It's true, if someone doesn't love you, no, that doesn't mean you lost - unless you're trying to persuade them to love you, in competition with another agent who is trying to persuade them not to love you.

Then it's a competition. Billions and billions of competitions. Which God is losing more of.

It's contrived because he knows better. You don't know enough about Christian theology to speak of what is corollary, or how it is set up. Your participation is merely at the level of a critic.

They are not in competition. God has made it so that those who are not God's are his. If God wanted tares He could take them from the adversary. That there is no competition is very clear in that God will allow such work.

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11​

You cannot persuade someone to love you, they either do or they don't. All you can do is present your image, and they can love or hate it. There is no stealing from God, God will judge according to what a person is, wheat or tare. The adversary merely presents the image of a tare for them to choose which they love. That is not winning or losing, but growing into what you are.

 

[smithed64]

But think about this. Who came up with the free will concept? God did, right? And God also recognized that with the fall of Adam and Eve, their children will all be under a curse, right? The default position would be a curse ending up in torment, eternal or otherwise! God had these plans all the while desiring the opposite outcome!

And Satan, supposedly, wants the opposite of what God wants. Satan wants everyone to perish, but Satan cannot create. He must work within God's framework. And yet, due to majority of people perishing, it looks like Satan is the ultimate winner.

How can this be?

what does that mean "satan is the ultimate winner"?
ultimate winner of what?
What's the evidence that he's winning anything?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It's contrived because he knows better. You don't know enough about Christian theology to speak of what is corollary, or how it is set up. Your participation is merely at the level of a critic.

You really don't like having the flaws in the Christian system of thought pointed out.

They are not in competition. God has made it so that those who are not God's are his. If God wanted tares He could take them from the adversary. That there is no competition is very clear in that God will allow such work.

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11​

So, God does not desire that all people come to Him and be saved?
And God, through His church, does not work to spread His gospel so that more and more people will come to Him and be saved?

You cannot persuade someone to love you, they either do or they don't. All you can do is present your image, and they can love or hate it.

Really? What about courtship? Wooing? What about the process of one person who loves another thinking about how to present him or herself?

Your arguments aren't making much sense, Sanoy. Maybe better rethink them.

 

[BigV]

Wanted to give you the right words for your "omni" comment.
Creation doesn't out do God. As the verse from Jeremiah above shows us. Nothing is too difficult for Him.

Thanks for the definitions. I'm not surprised by them and my OP was with those definitions in mind.
You say nothing is too difficult for him. But it seems to me God either can't handle or has not planned for human will. Because he can't really mess with that, right?

Human will stops all God's plans in their tracks. But they don't stop Satan's plans. I wonder why that is.

It's warfare over the souls of Man. There is the Saved and unsaved. Those who realize that they are sinners, are in rebellion against God and sin directly against Him and they Repent of their sins, Place their Trust in Christ alone, by Grace alone and by Faith alone.

In a war, the one who caused most casualties wins. As luck (or intelligent design) would have it, the game is rigged in favor of Satan. Because nobody can accidentally enter heaven, while it's very easy to accidentally end up in Hell!

So, who rigged the game?

what does that mean "satan is the ultimate winner"?
ultimate winner of what?
What's the evidence that he's winning anything?

See above. To recap, Satan wins by having the whole game rigged in his favor. If people do nothing, they end up with Satan. To end up with God, people must, to use your lingo:

...realize that they are sinners, are in rebellion against God and sin directly against Him and they Repent of their sins, Place their Trust in Christ alone, by Grace alone and by Faith alone.

Which doesn't always work. People may realize they are sinners, but not repent of their sins, not place their trust, etc... They may think they must earn their salvation through their good works, and as a result, Satan wins.

You know what? it looks like Satan designed the whole system, judging on the outcomes. I can't believe an intelligent Creator did not see this coming.

 

[Sanoy]

So, God does not desire that all people come to Him and be saved?
And God, through His church, does not work to spread His gospel so that more and more people will come to Him and be saved?

"You cannot persuade someone to love you, they either do or they don't."
Really? What about courtship? Wooing? What about the process of one person who loves another thinking about how to present him or herself?

Your arguments aren't making much sense, Sanoy. Maybe better rethink them.

1 Timothy 2:4, Mark 16:15

Courtship is presenting your image, or faking your image as some do. They either do or do not fall in love with that image. You can do nothing but present an image for them to love or hate.

 

[BigV]

You cannot persuade someone to love you, they either do or they don't.

Well, how would an intelligent being try to persuade you of their love? By hallucinating love letters to ancient sheep herders? Or by being a bit more direct?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

1 Timothy 2:4, Mark 16:15

Courtship is presenting your image, or faking your image as some do. They either do or do not fall in love with that image. You can do nothing a but present an image for them to love or hate.

You seem to have a rather curious idea about what courting involves! Of course you can do more than just present your image, which is exactly what people do. You interact. You talk. You get to know someone, and help them to get to know you.
Your two quotes only go to support my argument. Of course God would like all people to be saved, and to come to knowledge of the truth, and of course he sent people out to evangelise. The problem is, God is failing.

Given God's methods of wooing humanity, no wonder the devil is winning. This, of course, it an impossible situation for Christians, so it's no wonder you don't seem to want to address it.

 

[Sanoy]

Well, how would an intelligent being try to persuade you of their love?

You used to be a Christian and you don't know this? Or are you blocking Him from mind.

 

[Sanoy]

You seem to have a rather curious idea about what courting involves! Of course you can do more than just present your image, which is exactly what people do. You interact. You talk. You get to know someone, and help them to get to know you.
Your two quotes only go to support my argument. Of course God would like all people to be saved, and to come to knowledge of the truth, and of course he sent people out to evangelise. The problem is, God is failing.

Given God's methods of wooing humanity, no wonder the devil is winning. This, of course, it an impossible situation for Christians, so it's no wonder you don't seem to want to address it.

We are having a philosophical discussion not talking about hallmark. Verbal and non verbal communication is how you present your image - the intentional object the other person comes to obtain. You don't have an argument to support, you have a conclusion.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

We are having a philosophical discussion not talking about hallmark. Verbal and non verbal communication is how you present your image - the intentional object the other person comes to obtain. You don't have an argument to support, you have a conclusion.

Well, exactly. Verbal and nonverbal communication.
And apparently the devil is better at this than God, as is evidence by more people going to hell, which means that God is losing the contest.

Which bit of this are you having trouble with?

 

[Sanoy]

Well, exactly. Verbal and nonverbal communication.
And apparently the devil is better at this than God, as is evidence by more people going to hell, which means that God is losing the contest.

Which bit of this are you having trouble with?

As I have repeatedly stated, you can't persuade someone to love you. They either do, or they don't. There is no "better at it". You credit the devil for a success with you, but what you are is your doing.

 

[Tinker Grey]

As I have repeatedly stated, you can't persuade someone to love you.

But surely an omniscient god knows how to present itself so that, at minimum, I know it exists. Surely this god know how to do so without violating my free will. Surely (yeah, yeah, your name ain't Shirley), an omnipotent god has the wherewithal to do what the omniscient god knows to do do. Whence then my unbelief.

They either do, or they don't. There is no "better at it". You credit the devil for a success with you, but what you are is entirely your doing.

When can a christian do then other than blame the victim. And here it is: "entirely your doing".

Let's make it personal. I was a Christian for 44 years. I experienced periods of doubt. In those periods of doubt I cried out to God. I begged God to make himself known. I willed God to show himself (no violation of my free will, here). And yet he did not.

What then should I conclude. That the god of reality is not the god of 2 Peter 3:9; that your god doesn't in fact want; that your god in fact wills that I should perish. Or should I conclude that no such god exists.

If such a god exists and there is ECT, then I am content to raise my fist for eternity in defiance of such a monster. If there is no ECT, well then, so what -- I'd rather not exist then worship that monster.

As it happens, I don't believe he exists; I believe I will cease to exist. As such, I am content.

Call me a liar. I have words for you that will get me banned. Feel free to imagine them.

 

[mmksparbud]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be, based on the results?

He wins the war.

 

[Sanoy]

But surely an omniscient god knows how to present itself so that, at minimum, I know it exists. Surely this god know how to do so without violating my free will. Surely (yeah, yeah, your name ain't Shirley), an omnipotent god has the wherewithal to do what the omniscient god knows to do do. Whence then my unbelief.

When can a christian do then other than blame the victim. And here it is: "entirely your doing".

Let's make it personal. I was a Christian for 44 years. I experienced periods of doubt. In those periods of doubt I cried out to God. I begged God to make himself known. I willed God to show himself (no violation of my free will, here). And yet he did not.

What then should I conclude. That the god of reality is not the god of 2 Peter 3:9; that your god doesn't in fact want; that your god in fact wills that I should perish. Or should I conclude that no such god exists.

If such a god exists and there is ECT, then I am content to raise my fist for eternity in defiance of such a monster. If there is no ECT, well then, so what -- I'd rather not exist then worship that monster.

As it happens, I don't believe he exists; I believe I will cease to exist. As such, I am content.

Call me a liar. I have words for you that will get me banned. Feel free to imagine them.

According to Romans 1-2, we all have a sufficient amount of revelation to avail us of God's grace and make a heart response to that revelation. Head knowledge of God isn't a factor in that. We know what is right or wrong, and our "conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus".

I'm blaming the victim? A person is a wheat or tare because of the image they love. That is why they are a tare or wheat. No one ever reveals the details of their deconversion, so I can't really comment on it. But your lack of revelation there, doesn't make you a tare, and neither would it make you wheat if you had it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Romans 1 and 2 are just more evidence the bible is wrong.

 

[Sanoy]

Romans 1 and 2 are just more evidence the bible is wrong.

I don't think it's wrong. I have left Christianity, perhaps like you, but I came back. And I left, even after seeing an Angel. Those things do not save, they do however increase the responsibility one has toward the revelation they did have.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't think it's wrong. I have left Christianity, perhaps like you, but I came back. And I left, even after seeing an Angel. Those things do not save, they do however increase the responsibility one has toward the revelation they did have.

There was no revelation; only illusion.