if the people end up in Hell, does that mean God is losing a battle to Satan?

[BigV]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be, based on the results?

 

[royal priest]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be based in the results?

A Being that has everything at His disposal cannot win nor lose anything.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Most folks miss that the creator has NO match - the opposition is a fallen angel that He created... no competition there...

This is not Yin and Yang - that is a deception to equate evil with good.

Our God is supreme with no rivals.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Two responses so far, neither of which has addressed the OP.
Well done again, @BigV ! You're doing a good job at finding the weak spots in Christianity and pointing them out.

 

[Tolworth John]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be based in the results?

As I don't understand your first sentance. I'll try to answer the second.

What are the standards by which God judges sucess do you know them?

If the contest ends in heaven or hell where are you destined?
If you don't care why ask this sort of question?

 

[cloudyday2]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be based in the results?

The omni everything creator requires careful definition to make any sense at all. Saying God is omnipotent and omniscient and so forth is mostly an attempt to flatter God with poetry rather than a useful description of God. Some of the omni-everything concept can probably be found in various forms in the more poetic parts of the Bible, but it obviously is hyperbole.

The gospels often give the impression that God is searching for "the elect" who have been mixed with the general population and need to be recovered. Maybe the only way to distinguish "the elect" is in whatever freewill actually exists.

Sorry to be rambling there. I haven't had enough coffee yet, but your question in the OP is a good one, @BigV

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be based in the results?

If this was known to be what would happen beforehand, I'm not sure that it means that God is losing. No, I think it means that humanity on the whole keeps on making the wrong choice, and when any one individual decides to take the Mark of the Beast, they're at least partially culpable, not God.

C'mon! You know what the Bible says about all of this since you're (presently) an ex-christian.

 

[BigV]

What are the standards by which God judges sucess do you know them?

I would imagine the success is measured by how well God meets his desires?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Since most of the people perish, i.e end up in Hell, God is losing the race, no?

 

[BigV]

Most folks miss that the creator has NO match - the opposition is a fallen angel that He created... no competition there...

This is just a claim. But according to the Bible, we find that God's plans were ruined by Satan. First, he deceived the people into sin. And God had to come up with rescue plan, but that plan doesn't work, except for a few individuals. According to Jesus, narrow is the path that leads to life and few find it, while wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are walking on it.

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Our God is supreme with no rivals.

Well, if you say so.

 

[BigV]

If this was known to be what would happen beforehand, I'm not sure that it means that God is losing. No, I think it means that humanity on the whole keeps on making the wrong choice, and when any one individual decides to take the Mark of the Beast, they're at least partially culpable, not God.

Well, this is the baffling part. Imagine you are a stock trader with inside information and yet, your losses are worse than someone trading without insider knowledge. Something is not right there.

God wants everyone to be saved, even went through the trouble of incarnating his son and killing him on the cross and yet, lots of people still end up in Hell. What's going on there?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, this is the baffling part. Imagine you are a stock trader with inside information and yet, your losses are worse than someone trading without insider knowledge. Something is not right there.

God wants everyone to be saved, even went through the trouble of incarnating his son and killing him on the cross and yet, lots of people still end up in Hell. What's going on there?

I think what you're missing is that wanting others to become willing participants is one thing, but making them be participants is another thing altogether. This is why God's interaction with humanity comes through the idea of The Covenant. Of course, this whole process will be mediated by whether or not God Himself is a Sheer Exclusivist, an Inclusivist, or a Universalist. (I lean toward Inclusivism, myself.)

It's kind of like this, despite the roughness and imperfection of the following analogy:

I can generally say that I'd love for my young son to have Health and Success in his overall life, find a wife, and gain back his faith in God that he's struggling with at the moment. I can even go out of my way to try to give him an unfair advantage over other children in my community, but as his dad, I can do all of that but I can't "make him" be healthy, successful or even a Christian 'again.'

 

[BigV]

I think what you're missing is that wanting others to become willing participants is one thing, but making them be participants is another thing altogether.

Well, it seems to me, that whether by the will of Satan or by God's will, the humanity is faced with Hell being the default state. Whose idea was that? Did God set it up or did Satan force God into this predicament?

What I mean by the "default state", is that if humans do nothing, they end up in Hell. Humanity needs to figure out the following:
1. They need to recognize they are Hell bound.
2. Figure out a way to get 'saved' from that.
3. Follow that path to salvation, whatever it is.

Where as to get into Hell, they need to do nothing. Watch TV, and drink some beer.

Sounds like Satan tricked God, because, presumably, Satan wants the opposite of God's will. Satan wishes that as many people perish as possible. Looks like he got his wish.

I can generally say that I'd love for my young son to have Health and Success in his overall life, find a wife, and gain back his faith in God that he's struggling with at the moment. I can even go out of my way to try to give him an unfair advantage over other children in my community, but as his dad, I can do all of that but I can't "make him" be healthy, successful or even a Christian 'again.'

I'm assuming you will provide your son with everything you can that is in your power. Since you are not all powerful, your (and mine) limitations prevent us from teaching our kids all of the lessons that we can. There comes a point when our kids must make independent decisions, where even we, the parents are not sure what is right.

However, lets imagine you have a supernatural knowledge that your 19 year old son will die in a car crash today IF he gets behind the wheel of his car. Would you do everything in your power to prevent your son from getting behind the wheel? Even if your son is going to laugh at your superstition, wouldn't you still stop him?

 

[cvanwey]

If so, how can a creation outdo omni everything creator?

And if God is winning, how can that be, based on the results?

It does raise questions, such as:

- If God has foreknowledge, wouldn't He realize that providing 'evidence' (i.e.) the Bible, attested to exclusively by ancient writings long ago, which many will not understand 'correctly', may not be an effective method to convey His message to most? Furthermore...

- Atheists reject the concept of the the Christian God, not because they know He exists and choose to rebel, but instead because they find the 'presented evidence' lacking for His existence?

And because of this, watches as many make incorrect choices.

-

 

[Sanoy]

There is no battle as you imagine. The adversary can do nothing except if God allows it, his present freedom is allowed. The Spirit led Christ to the wilderness where He was tempted by the adversary, not the other way around. Neither God nor the adversary force one to become wheat or tare, they themselves become poisonous tares. Wheat and Tares grow up looking identical until adulthood, but tares are poison to the loaf. This situation is allowed so that tares will become tares and wheat will become wheat. God does not want poisonous bread, it is and will be a total victory when the tares are revealed and removed. Will you call upon the adversary for you and others and challenge God for not saving you and them?

 

[Hawkins]

No evidence will be provided as the covenant between God and men says that humans in majority (excluding the selected eyewitnesses perhaps) will have to be saved by faith.

You can check up on His book of Life afterwards to see if someone is missing, someone God planned to save but not saved.

If 1/3 today's humans can at a point believe in Jesus through an ancient book, so can you. If you can't, then so be it.

 

[BigV]

There is no battle as you imagine. The adversary can do nothing except if God allows it, his present freedom is allowed.

Ah.. so God is working in partnership with Satan?

The Spirit led Christ to the wilderness where He was tempted by the adversary, not the other way around.

OK, but wilderness for 40 days is a bit different than Hell for all of eternity, no? In other words, a parent who lovingly punishes their child is on a different scale vs a parent who torches their child to death.

This situation is allowed so that tares will become tares and wheat will become wheat. God does not want poisonous bread, it is and will be a total victory when the tares are revealed and removed. Will you call upon the adversary for you and others and challenge God for not saving you and them?

I think you are missing the point. There is a certain outcome that God desires, right? To expand on your wheat and tare example, God wants all people to be wheat. It's his sincere desire. And yet, majority will be tares.

The Devil desires that all people be tares. Since the majority of people are tares, Satan wins, right? Or does God doesn't really care?

 

[BigV]

If 1/3 today's humans can at a point believe in Jesus through an ancient book, so can you. If you can't, then so be it.

Well, that sounds like a response of someone who either doesn't care or can't do anything about it.

The Bible clearly says that God desires all people to be saved! So, why aren't all people saved? Because Satan was able trick humans into eating of the forbidden fruit and then not accept Jesus, right? So Satan wins, if you judge by the number of people who ultimately end up being saved.

But perhaps God doesn't really want all people to be saved? But then why does the Bible claim that he wants all people to be saved? Something is missing. Either Bible is not errant or God is not who he is claimed to be.

 

[Hawkins]

Well, that sounds like a response of someone who either doesn't care or can't do anything about it.

The Bible clearly says that God desires all people to be saved! So, why aren't all people saved? Because Satan was able trick humans into eating of the forbidden fruit and then not accept Jesus, right? So Satan wins, if you judge by the number of people who ultimately end up being saved.

But perhaps God doesn't really want all people to be saved? But then why does the Bible claim that he wants all people to be saved? Something is missing. Either Bible is not errant or God is not who he is claimed to be.

Learn some simple logic. If 1 and 0 is are given as true choice, some with choose 0 while others 1, mathematically and statistically!

 

[Sanoy]

Ah.. so God is working in partnership with Satan?



OK, but wilderness for 40 days is a bit different than Hell for all of eternity, no? In other words, a parent who lovingly punishes their child is on a different scale vs a parent who torches their child to death.



I think you are missing the point. There is a certain outcome that God desires, right? To expand on your wheat and tare example, God wants all people to be wheat. It's his sincere desire. And yet, majority will be tares.

The Devil desires that all people be tares. Since the majority of people are tares, Satan wins, right? Or does God doesn't really care?

No

Yes it is. and again I don't believe in ECT.

God desires that all be saved. Free will is why many will become tares. Free will is why many will become wheat. I wouldn't consider it winning to have tares in a loaf, they are poison. The whole contrived question is ridiculous, if someone doesn't love you does that mean you lost? No, it means someone doesn't love you.

 

[BigV]

God desires that all be saved. Free will is why many will become tares. Free will is why many will become wheat. I wouldn't consider it winning to have tares in a loaf, they are poison. The whole contrived question is ridiculous, if someone doesn't love you does that mean you lost? No, it means someone doesn't love you.

But think about this. Who came up with the free will concept? God did, right? And God also recognized that with the fall of Adam and Eve, their children will all be under a curse, right? The default position would be a curse ending up in torment, eternal or otherwise! God had these plans all the while desiring the opposite outcome!

And Satan, supposedly, wants the opposite of what God wants. Satan wants everyone to perish, but Satan cannot create. He must work within God's framework. And yet, due to majority of people perishing, it looks like Satan is the ultimate winner.

How can this be?