If the Papacy were the beast...

[ken777]

can you address this?

It has been addressed earlier in this thread.

 

[victorinus]

It has been addressed earlier in this thread.

can you show me where?

 

[ken777]

can you show me where?

You first asked this in post 77. In posts 74 & 76 I mentioned several points.

 

[victorinus]

You first asked this in post 77. In posts 74 & 76 I mentioned several points.

I don't see anything in those posts beside the seven hills

 

[tz620q]

I visited Rome some years ago and marvelled at St Peter's Basilica ... though I could not help but wonder what St Peter, the simple, poor fisherman would think of it.


It is the history of the Papacy that I have been addressing, not the Catholic faith itself. And yes, the actions of the Papacy certainly can be criticised apart from the actions of people such as St Francis or Mother Teresa who did so much good.

Hmmm. I can see your point; but wouldn't you be criticizing the actions of a certain Pope and not the office. We can criticize what Obama has done as President without saying that that implies that the office of the Presidency is evil. If we are trying to evaluate the Presidency, we have to take in all Presidents and all of their actions while in office, not just the limited ones we don't like.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

YHWH is even simpler: When the people of Israel clamored for a man to lead them, instead of YHWH to lead them,
YHWH let them have one - HE WARNED THEM what would happen (and it did),
and YHWH told the prophet: don't worry - they have not rejected you human, they have rejected ME YHWH THE CREATOR.
And so it is.

Still..

and [as it happened/happens] they [the people everywhere following a man] are still being punished// suffering punishment or penalties for it.

If we are trying to evaluate the Presidency, we have to take in all Presidents and all of their actions while in office, not just the limited ones we don't like.

 

[tz620q]

YHWH is even simpler: When the people of Israel clamored for a man to lead them, instead of YHWH to lead them,
YHWH let them have one - HE WARNED THEM what would happen (and it did),
and YHWH told the prophet: don't worry - they have not rejected you human, they have rejected ME YHWH THE CREATOR.
And so it is.

Still..

and [as it happened/happens] they [the people everywhere following a man] are still being punished// suffering punishment or penalties for it.

Even in the OT, there were examples of men that ruled Israel or Judah and pleased God. David was selected by God himself. So it seems that the criteria was not having a human leader or not; but whether that human leader pointed his people to God. Have you ever been Catholic?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1 Samuel 8:7
KJ21
And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

It is still true today.

So it seems that the criteria was not having a human leader or not

 

[masmpg]

I said: If the Papacy were the beast, then why would it survive for 2000 years ? (nothing evil could last that long)
EastCoastRemnant said: Satan is the power behind this entity and he has been perpetrating evil for 6000 years now.
I said: You mean God did allow a heretical church to mislead people for that long (2000 years), while the true Church remained obscured for so long??? You are insulting God.

I said: If the Papacy were the beast, why Hollywood movies only attack the Catholic Church*, not Protestantism ?
EastCoastRemnant said: Maybe the Jews of Hollywood have an axe to grind with the RCC...
I said: Every Christian with some good sense knows that the Hollywood belongs to the Devil. Now would the Devil spend so much money each year just to attack his own subordinates ??? Why would not he rather spend that large amount of money to attack "God's Church" ???

I said: why the beast (what you call the Papacy) would inspire people to do works of love ?
EastCoastRemnant said: "Many will say to me on the day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not do all these wonderful things in your name?' and I will say unto them, depart ye workers of iniquity..."
I said: Mother Teresa, Saint Vincent de Paul, Jeanne Jugan, Saint Mary Mackillop, etc have benefited so many people and brought so many to Christ. They are all workers of iniquity? What right do you have to say so ???

* Such as Da Vinci Code, Stigmata, etc.

For every truth satan has a counterfeit. God has allowed satan power in order to prove God's people and prepare them to live with Him in a holy atmosphere. without evil there would be no temptation, without temptation there would be no character building. If God has a true church, who is depicted in scriptures as the pure woman or virgin according to 2Corinthians:11:2: "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." or in Ephesians the church is likened to a wife or bride. So the apostate church is likened to an harlot as in revelation 17.

The thing that should be talked about more is the fact that the RCC has been around for so long and hardly anybody pays any mind. In fact most of protestantism has run back to the mother of harlots to re unite. Protestantism is no more. The image of the beats, which is when apostate protestantism joins hands with the RCC to command civil authorities to legislate their moral dictates, then the church run state of the old unholy roman catholic church will have its way once again. This is where it is all leading to. To sell the RCC short when they have all the history and information which is not theirs to keep, is like sticking our heads in the sand. The vatican archives should be open to the public. ALL documents should be copied and available for all who want to research the real history of our world, which they keep so secret, which proves that they only want uneducated folks as slaves or not at all.

 

[tz620q]

The thing that should be talked about more is the fact that the RCC has been around for so long and hardly anybody pays any mind. In fact most of protestantism has run back to the mother of harlots to re unite. Protestantism is no more. The image of the beats, which is when apostate protestantism joins hands with the RCC to command civil authorities to legislate their moral dictates, then the church run state of the old unholy roman catholic church will have its way once again. This is where it is all leading to. To sell the RCC short when they have all the history and information which is not theirs to keep, is like sticking our heads in the sand. The vatican archives should be open to the public. ALL documents should be copied and available for all who want to research the real history of our world, which they keep so secret, which proves that they only want uneducated folks as slaves or not at all.

It really seems strange to me that there is so much anti-Catholicism within the Adventist faith, since they are a group that has never really been persecuted by Catholicism. The only explanation that I can find is that after the Great Disappointment, the Millerites were a Rebellion without a Cause. Through Ellen Gould White's bent mind enters the fad of the time (1840's and 1850's), which is anti-Catholicism. This was the one rallying cry that could keep the Adventists together, a cry for hatred that has become part of their dogma through "The Great Controversy". The really strange part is that the Adventists have become the modern day Pharisees, trumpeting a return to a Mosaic law to recover true Christianity, which makes no sense to me at all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A little child of faith in Y'SHUA doesn't need to be persecuted by a group to know by YHWH when the group is opposed to or contrary to YHWH'S WORD.
He will suffer much persecution in any case, just for standing up for the TRUTH, as Y'SHUA and YHWH'S WORD says plainly.

 

[tz620q]

A little child of faith in Y'SHUA doesn't need to be persecuted by a group to know by YHWH when the group is opposed to or contrary to YHWH'S WORD.
He will suffer much persecution in any case, just for standing up for the TRUTH, as Y'SHUA and YHWH'S WORD says plainly.

This is a history forum. Why not post something addressing the history of the topic of the thread or the beliefs brought forward in this thread, rather than run to the pulpit and spout generalities?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thus,
because men departed from Y'SHUA,
and rebelled against YHWH,
and denied HIS WORD and HIS WAY,
multitudes were deceived ever since the Apostles passed.

Those who adhered to Y'SHUA , abiding in HIM, remaining IN HIM, according to HIS WORD as written clearly,
and YHWH'S REVELATION as Y'SHUA always said is needed in each man,
continued in the KINGDOM OF YHWH on earth, by grace through faith (a gift).

Many men departed from YHWH - they rejected HIM and would not repent and would not turn to HIM,
as revealed in HIS WORD and all through history.


Without YHWH'S REVELATION, and abiding in Y'SHUA,
no one has spiritual guidance.
Any man, of any religion, that claims to be giving spiritual guidance
and rejects YHWH'S WORD, and does not point or direct people to Y'SHUA
is a fraud and despicable false teacher.
Thus, even for the APOSTLES PETER, JAMES AND JOHN, et al,
YHWH'S WORD is and was the STANDARD -
the TEST, the unchangeable way to know
if any message or messenger was
of YHWH
or not of YHWH
for EVERYONE TO KNOW.

SHEEP need the SHEPHERD Y'SHUA(JESUS).
HIS sheep HEAR HIS VOICE; period. Simple.
They WILL NOT FOLLOW A MAN (especially a religious man who denies Y'SHUA and opposes YHWH'S WORD).

The way to test is by YHWH'S WORD
for those who abide in HIM.

Those who do not abide in HIM, cannot know .

 

[1John2:4]

Any place, (civil, secular, religious, medical, politic, economic, any school)
Y'SHUA said
If you stand up for the TRUTH
and they don't at that place
they will hate you
and
they will kick you out (or kill you).

 

[masmpg]

It really seems strange to me that there is so much anti-Catholicism within the Adventist faith, since they are a group that has never really been persecuted by Catholicism. The only explanation that I can find is that after the Great Disappointment, the Millerites were a Rebellion without a Cause. Through Ellen Gould White's bent mind enters the fad of the time (1840's and 1850's), which is anti-Catholicism. This was the one rallying cry that could keep the Adventists together, a cry for hatred that has become part of their dogma through "The Great Controversy". The really strange part is that the Adventists have become the modern day Pharisees, trumpeting a return to a Mosaic law to recover true Christianity, which makes no sense to me at all.

First off the anti catholic sentiment did not start in the 19th century. You can read John Huss, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, William tyndale, Charles Spurgeon, President Adams, AD INFINITUM! Stop blaming anti catholic rhetoric on the SDA denomination.

You obviously know nothing about the SDA denomination. I was raised a catholic, I went to catholic school and was an altar boy. I have every right to share the truth about how misleading the catholic church is through their catechism of catholic doctrine that they promote over God's holy word the KJV bible.

You obviously know nothing about God's law either. The law that Moses wrote in a book is considered the "mosaic" law, the TEN commandments are NOT included in that book Deuteronomy 31. God wrote the law that the SDA denomination defends. In fact the catholic church defends the TEN commandments too.

I love the catholic church. I pray for those who sit in the pews and are deceived by the false doctrines and rituals the church teach and practice. I learned many good principles while attending catholic school, and one of the main principles that is lacking today is reverence, which use to be so enforced in the sanctuary of the church. I don't know about now.

 

[tz620q]

First off the anti catholic sentiment did not start in the 19th century. You can read John Huss, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, William tyndale, Charles Spurgeon, President Adams, AD INFINITUM! Stop blaming anti catholic rhetoric on the SDA denomination.

You obviously know nothing about the SDA denomination. I was raised a catholic, I went to catholic school and was an altar boy. I have every right to share the truth about how misleading the catholic church is through their catechism of catholic doctrine that they promote over God's holy word the KJV bible.

You obviously know nothing about God's law either. The law that Moses wrote in a book is considered the "mosaic" law, the TEN commandments are NOT included in that book Deuteronomy 31. God wrote the law that the SDA denomination defends. In fact the catholic church defends the TEN commandments too.

I love the catholic church. I pray for those who sit in the pews and are deceived by the false doctrines and rituals the church teach and practice. I learned many good principles while attending catholic school, and one of the main principles that is lacking today is reverence, which use to be so enforced in the sanctuary of the church. I don't know about now.

I was responding to the fact that the opinion you expressed before comes right out of Ellen Gould White's "The Great Controversy", which radically changed SDA theology from waiting for the end times to a vitriolic anti-Catholicism. I did not state that anti-Catholic rhetoric was started by the SDA, only that it is rather odd that a group that has never been persecuted by the Catholic Church would adopt it.

As far as God's holy word being the KJV Bible, are you a KJV-onlyist? That position to me is so isolationist as to be rather suspect.

As far as my knowledge of SDA denomination, I have a good friend whose history is similar to yours. He was raised Catholic, married a woman who was SDA and converted to SDA, became a person very active in the local SDA congregation, and finally left that congregation for another SDA congregation because the anti-Catholicism was such a rank and pernicious part of the first congregation. I know that not all SDA congregations are that way; but your posts tend to make me think that you are. As someone who likes and studies history, I shake my head at the horrendous history quoted by many SDA on here. When we quote from non-SDA sites to try to show them their error, they run quickly to the position that since we are Catholic (or those terrible Protestant groups that are uniting back to the Catholic faith) we cannot be trusted to know the truth, which is really only firmly held within the SDA faith.

I am sorry that this is coming across as harsh and thank you for your prayers for Catholics. We all need prayers; but it is disingenuous to say you pray for people when in fact your intent seems to be to convert them.

 

[masmpg]

I was responding to the fact that the opinion you expressed before comes right out of Ellen Gould White's "The Great Controversy", which radically changed SDA theology from waiting for the end times to a vitriolic anti-Catholicism. I did not state that anti-Catholic rhetoric was started by the SDA, only that it is rather odd that a group that has never been persecuted by the Catholic Church would adopt it.

As far as God's holy word being the KJV Bible, are you a KJV-onlyist? That position to me is so isolationist as to be rather suspect.

As far as my knowledge of SDA denomination, I have a good friend whose history is similar to yours. He was raised Catholic, married a woman who was SDA and converted to SDA, became a person very active in the local SDA congregation, and finally left that congregation for another SDA congregation because the anti-Catholicism was such a rank and pernicious part of the first congregation. I know that not all SDA congregations are that way; but your posts tend to make me think that you are. As someone who likes and studies history, I shake my head at the horrendous history quoted by many SDA on here. When we quote from non-SDA sites to try to show them their error, they run quickly to the position that since we are Catholic (or those terrible Protestant groups that are uniting back to the Catholic faith) we cannot be trusted to know the truth, which is really only firmly held within the SDA faith.

I am sorry that this is coming across as harsh and thank you for your prayers for Catholics. We all need prayers; but it is disingenuous to say you pray for people when in fact your intent seems to be to convert them.

The SDA denomination considers itself as the extension of the reformation which has never really ended. The reformation can never end as long as there is opposition to the bible from denominationalism. The Protestant reformation is all about protesting the errors taught by denominational commandments of men. It is not only the RCC that has been protested but the Anglican church also that tried to cancel the bible in any "common" language. If everyone understood John 14-17 there would be one denomination and one translation of the bible.

I am a KJV onlyist as you say. I use to attend bible study with no less than ten translations until the Holy Spirit showed me that my understanding has very little to do with what God reveals to us through His word. John 14:26 & 16:13 tell us that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) teach us all things, and guides us into all truth, and brings to remembrance everything Jesus said. To compare all the different translations and pick and choose which one sounds best to me is taking away the job of the Holy Spirit. Besides, when I am in church and the speaker tells me to follow along as he reads from a different translation I get lost in trying to follow along. If you attend a bible study and ask everyone to read a certain verse all at the same time from different translations it is babylon! The translation is not the problem, it is the corrupt manuscripts that the translators, Westcott and Hort, of the "modern" translations used. I could go on and on but you probably would not read it any way. To every truth of God satan has a counterfeit and modern translations have done more damage to Christianity than any one thing.

The "horrendous" history quoted here is the catholic church history. If you really want to get sick go on you tube and watch some of the tortures that the church did to people during the inquisitions. This is all on the RCC not those who try to "convert" people from their treachery. Jesus told us to teach all nations, so I pray for all those deceived souls in all denominations SDA included. The bible is black and white, and very explicit about how we are saved and who will be saved. There are Christians in every denomination, and I will say that there will be more catholics in heaven than any other denomination. Just because they are deceived does not mean they are lost. They are only lost when they start to deny the truths sent to them by the Holy Spirit. If we deny convictions we must question our resolve, do we want tradition or salvation?

 

[tz620q]

The SDA denomination considers itself as the extension of the reformation which has never really ended. The reformation can never end as long as there is opposition to the bible from denominationalism. The Protestant reformation is all about protesting the errors taught by denominational commandments of men. It is not only the RCC that has been protested but the Anglican church also that tried to cancel the bible in any "common" language. If everyone understood John 14-17 there would be one denomination and one translation of the bible.

Pope Francis gave a homily about a year ago where he said the Catholic Church should be Semper Reformanda (always in reformation). So this is not a new thought for us and is a valid point for any church. The idea that the Bible should only exist in one translation sounds like the Latin Vulgate should be dusted off. Unfortunately, we still exist within the effects of the Tower of Babel, so there are many languages on the earth. Fortunately in these times, many are literate enough to read at least one language. I know that the SDA distribute Bibles in many of those languages and would wonder it these are just word for word translations of the KJV or make allowances for differences in grammar, idioms, etc.

I am a KJV onlyist as you say. I use to attend bible study with no less than ten translations until the Holy Spirit showed me that my understanding has very little to do with what God reveals to us through His word. John 14:26 & 16:13 tell us that the Comforter (Holy Spirit) teach us all things, and guides us into all truth, and brings to remembrance everything Jesus said. To compare all the different translations and pick and choose which one sounds best to me is taking away the job of the Holy Spirit. Besides, when I am in church and the speaker tells me to follow along as he reads from a different translation I get lost in trying to follow along. If you attend a bible study and ask everyone to read a certain verse all at the same time from different translations it is babylon! The translation is not the problem, it is the corrupt manuscripts that the translators, Westcott and Hort, of the "modern" translations used. I could go on and on but you probably would not read it any way. To every truth of God satan has a counterfeit and modern translations have done more damage to Christianity than any one thing.

I wonder what you think about the Latin Vulgate then, remembering that Vulgate was a reference to a Bible translation in the common language of that time (at least in the Western Roman Empire). It was done by Jerome in Palestine with reference to Hebrew manuscripts that no longer exist but were quite early in Christianity and to Hebrew scholars that were not far removed from the time of Christ. Therefore to me, it should be seen as one of the most reliable translations; but I doubt you agree. When I have a question on meaning, I try to go back to the Greek or Hebrew and find scholars that can tell me more about the way a native speaker of that time period would have understood it. This can often show meanings that are lost in the English.

The "horrendous" history quoted here is the catholic church history. If you really want to get sick go on you tube and watch some of the tortures that the church did to people during the inquisitions. This is all on the RCC not those who try to "convert" people from their treachery. Jesus told us to teach all nations, so I pray for all those deceived souls in all denominations SDA included. The bible is black and white, and very explicit about how we are saved and who will be saved. There are Christians in every denomination, and I will say that there will be more catholics in heaven than any other denomination. Just because they are deceived does not mean they are lost. They are only lost when they start to deny the truths sent to them by the Holy Spirit. If we deny convictions we must question our resolve, do we want tradition or salvation?

Tradition or salvation is to me a false dichotomy, implying that one is the negation of the other.

As far as Catholic history, I have studied it extensively. I will be the first to admit that there have been times in history when if we look at them with modern eyes we blanch at what went on. I also know that there have been many Protestant apologists over the years (especially in the 1800's) that have written very poor histories and somehow these have survived and are still quoted today as fact, mostly on here by members of the SDA church. While I agree with the apologies that Pope John Paul II gave to the victims of the Inquisitions, that does not imply agreement with all of the claims made about the Inquistion. JPII was only acting after a commission had worked for years on resolving from primary documents who the actual victims were. It might be worthwhile to check into the findings of this commission.

I am not asking you to deny your convictions, only try to look at other sources than those used by the SDA denomination.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1 Corinthians 3:11
KJ21
For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
ASV
For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
AMP
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ.
AMPC
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
-------------------------------------------------------------CONTRAST WITH >> (religion, all) >>

1 Corinthians 3:3
KJ21
for ye are yet carnal. For if there is among you envying and strife and divisions, are ye not carnal and walk as men?
ASV
for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?
AMP
You are still worldly [controlled by ordinary impulses, the sinful capacity]. For as long as there is jealousy and strife and discord among you, are you not unspiritual, and are you not walking like ordinary men [unchanged by faith]?
AMPC
For you are still [unspiritual, having the nature] of the flesh [under the control of ordinary impulses]. For as long as [there are] envying and jealousy and wrangling and factions among you, are you not unspiritual and of the flesh, behaving yourselves after a human standard and like mere (unchanged) men?

--------------------------------- don't even boast in Paul/ Shaul / or Peter or any man/men for that is carnal -----

Let no one fool himself. If someone among you thinks he is wise (by this world’s standards), let him become “foolish,” so that he may become really wise.

For the wisdom of this world is nonsense, as far as God is concerned; inasmuch as the Tanakh says, “He traps the wise in their own cleverness,”a]">[a]

and again, “Adonai knows that the thoughts of the wise are worthless.”b]">[b]

So let no one boast about human beings, for all things are yours —

whether Sha’ul or Apollos or Kefa or the world or life or death or the present or the future: they all belong to you,

and you belong to the Messiah, and the Messiah belongs to God.

 

[tz620q]

1 Corinthians 3:11
KJ21
For no man can lay another foundation than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

What is the foundation that Jesus Christ laid? It is not the Bible and it is not you or I.