If the Papacy were the beast...

[tz620q]

Unless YHWH'S WORD was right. (why it happened and why it was necessary in YHWH'S PLAN and PURPOSE)

Do you go to Church on Sundays? If so, is that an organized religion? Or is only the Catholic Church an organized religion?

For me the 666 is a triple emphasis on the number of man (6). One meaning is when we replace God with man and worship the created over the creator. Today, in this individualistic society, too many are abandoning organized religion to set up their own man-made churches. That is more probably the number of man than a 2000 year old office that can show ties back to the Apostles.

 

[High Fidelity]

Evil has been around since time begun! There is evil everywhere. No doubt inside the Vatican. But, Jesus is at the helm of His church! Unsinkable even in the roughest of storms!

Indeed, but that's where the theological debates meet.

Many people have different interpretations and understandings of who or what His church is.

To Catholics, the RCC is His church.

To others, myself included, His church is the body of believers, whether they're Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist, Anglican etc.

 

[Goatee]

Indeed, but that's where the theological debates meet.

Many people have different interpretations and understandings of who or what His church is.

To Catholics, the RCC is His church.

To others, myself included, His church is the body of believers, whether they're Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist, Anglican etc.

No, not RCC but CC.

 

[tz620q]

Indeed, but that's where the theological debates meet.

Many people have different interpretations and understandings of who or what His church is.

To Catholics, the RCC is His church.

To others, myself included, His church is the body of believers, whether they're Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist, Anglican etc.

Good post. We all draw lines though. At some point we all say, "No, these people's beliefs are so far outside of orthodoxy that they should not be called Christian."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But, Jesus is at the helm of His church! Unsinkable even in the roughest of storms!

AMEIN!
JESUS is at the helm of HIS ECCLESIA('CHURCH').
That's why we don't trust men.

 

[Goatee]

AMEIN!
JESUS is at the helm of HIS ECCLESIA('CHURCH').
That's why we don't trust men.

But, every church has 'men' helping guide it. Some are truly God sent!

God works through these 'men'. We need good, God guided men too. One cannot expect to walk the right path without Spiritual Guidance. Obviously one needs to let God decide, through prayer etc, who to turn to on this 'physical' earth.

Sometimes it can be harmful to listen to thoughts whirring in ones mind! One has to be very careful not to be enticed by the devil.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sometimes it can be harmful to listen to thoughts whirring in ones mind! One has to be very careful not to be enticed by the devil.

Thus,
because men departed from Y'SHUA,
and rebelled against YHWH,
and denied HIS WORD and HIS WAY,
multitudes were deceived ever since the Apostles passed.

Those who adhered to Y'SHUA , abiding in HIM, remaining IN HIM, according to HIS WORD as written clearly,
and YHWH'S REVELATION as Y'SHUA always said is needed in each man,
continued in the KINGDOM OF YHWH on earth, by grace through faith (a gift).

Many men departed from YHWH - they rejected HIM and would not repent and would not turn to HIM,
as revealed in HIS WORD and all through history.

One cannot expect to walk the right path without Spiritual Guidance.

Without YHWH'S REVELATION, and abiding in Y'SHUA,
no one has spiritual guidance.
Any man, of any religion, that claims to be giving spiritual guidance
and rejects YHWH'S WORD, and does not point or direct people to Y'SHUA
is a fraud and despicable false teacher.
Thus, even for the APOSTLES PETER, JAMES AND JOHN, et al,
YHWH'S WORD is and was the STANDARD -
the TEST, the unchangeable way to know
if any message or messenger was
of YHWH
or not of YHWH
for EVERYONE TO KNOW.

SHEEP need the SHEPHERD Y'SHUA(JESUS).
HIS sheep HEAR HIS VOICE; period. Simple.
They WILL NOT FOLLOW A MAN (especially a religious man who denies Y'SHUA and opposes YHWH'S WORD).

The way to test is by YHWH'S WORD
for those who abide in HIM.

Those who do not abide in HIM, cannot know .

 

[Goatee]

Thus,
because men departed from Y'SHUA,
and rebelled against YHWH,
and denied HIS WORD and HIS WAY,
multitudes were deceived ever since the Apostles passed.

Those who adhered to Y'SHUA , abiding in HIM, remaining IN HIM, according to HIS WORD as written clearly,
and YHWH'S REVELATION as Y'SHUA always said is needed in each man,
continued in the KINGDOM OF YHWH on earth, by grace through faith (a gift).

Many men departed from YHWH - they rejected HIM and would not repent and would not turn to HIM,
as revealed in HIS WORD and all through history.


Without YHWH'S REVELATION, and abiding in Y'SHUA,
no one has spiritual guidance.
Any man, of any religion, that claims to be giving spiritual guidance
and rejects YHWH'S WORD, and does not point or direct people to Y'SHUA
is a fraud and despicable false teacher.
Thus, even for the APOSTLES PETER, JAMES AND JOHN, et al,
YHWH'S WORD is and was the STANDARD -
the TEST, the unchangeable way to know
if any message or messenger was
of YHWH
or not of YHWH
for EVERYONE TO KNOW.

SHEEP need the SHEPHERD Y'SHUA(JESUS).
HIS sheep HEAR HIS VOICE; period. Simple.
They WILL NOT FOLLOW A MAN (especially a religious man who denies Y'SHUA and opposes YHWH'S WORD).

The way to test is by YHWH'S WORD
for those who abide in HIM.

Those who do not abide in HIM, cannot know .

Why are you an anabaptist?

Do you go to church?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why are you an anabaptist?

Do you go to church?

IT is the closest descriptive label available here,
or it was (I haven't checked again).
"Do you go to church?" is a total misdirection from YHWH'S command and Y'SHUA'S LIFE.
IT was a common question decades ago - and
the common answer was "we are church" as in we are all member's in the body of CHRIST who are alive in HIM,
the ecclesia (the ones born again, SAVED ALREADY, SAVED TODAY< and KNOW IT > )
the ones CALLED BY YHWH , CHOSEN BY YHWH, in Y'SHUA,
HIS PEOPLE, set apart by YHWH, in Y'SHUA, for HIS PURPOSE.

Later, after ecclesia no longer meant ecclesia, and was changed by evil men to "church meaning a building"
and is translated "church" in many english versions
and is uniformly recognized in error as [whatever people thing it is different than YHWH called it]
it no longer had the power of life or of living or sharing life
(except for those who remained true to YHWH in Y'SHUA).

So , every man may chose to trust mankind in error,
or to trust YHWH in truth,
and to trust YHWH as HE says in HIS WORD
that YHWH rewards EVERYONE who diligently seeks HIM(YHWH) and trusts and relies on HIM(YHWH)
instead of trusting in themselves or in any flesh(man).

 

[Goatee]

IT is the closest descriptive label available here,
or it was (I haven't checked again).
"Do you go to church?" is a total misdirection from YHWH'S command and Y'SHUA'S LIFE.
IT was a common question decades ago - and
the common answer was "we are church" as in we are all member's in the body of CHRIST who are alive in HIM,
the ecclesia (the ones born again, SAVED ALREADY, SAVED TODAY< and KNOW IT > )
the ones CALLED BY YHWH , CHOSEN BY YHWH, in Y'SHUA,
HIS PEOPLE, set apart by YHWH, in Y'SHUA, for HIS PURPOSE.

Later, after ecclesia no longer meant ecclesia, and was changed by evil men to "church meaning a building"
and is translated "church" in many english versions
and is uniformly recognized in error as [whatever people thing it is different than YHWH called it]
it no longer had the power of life or of living or sharing life
(except for those who remained true to YHWH in Y'SHUA).

So , every man may chose to trust mankind in error,
or to trust YHWH in truth,
and to trust YHWH as HE says in HIS WORD
that YHWH rewards EVERYONE who diligently seeks HIM(YHWH) and trusts and relies on HIM(YHWH)
instead of trusting in themselves or in any flesh(man).

So, do you go to 'church'?

 

[ken777]

He didn't do as the Apostles did. Luther 'divided' Christianity. He started the ball rolling which broke the church in 2. Was he guided by God? If he was, how can you prove it? God would not have had Luther divide the church. Only satan would want that!

Luther wanted to reform the Catholic church - which desperately needed reforming - but the Pope excommunicated him. Luther forced the CC into the counter-reformation which was an improvement of sorts though the Papacy still condoned some atrocious acts.

The Church (the universal body of all believers) has never been - nor ever can be - divided for they are bound together by faith in Jesus Christ the Redeemer.

 

[tz620q]

Luther wanted to reform the Catholic church - which desperately needed reforming - but the Pope excommunicated him.

I think you are inferring a correlation here that to me doesn't exist. I agree with the need for reform; but if asking for reform alone got one excommunicated, then there would be no Saint Francis of Assisi or Saint Catherine of Sienna. The excommunication was done on theological differences between Luther's beliefs and those of the Catholic Church. See the Leipzig Debate and the Papal Bull Exsurge Domine for a detailing of those differences. Truthfully, I find it rather strange that the Edict of Worms is vilified. When you consider that Luther was employed as a theology professor at a Catholic university, it would not make sense to allow him to continue his employment after he refused to recant his positions that were contrary to Catholic theology. I would not expect my employer to continue employing me if I violated their policies or worked against any of their positions. So in essence, Luther had more to do with the outcome of the Diet of Worms than the Pope. Either this is accepted or we make him the unwitting victim of a vast political machine, which though used as propaganda at the time does not fit the facts as I have studied them.

One interesting thing that I discovered while researching this was the reason why Luther's university didn't step forward to try to control his publishing controversial materials between 1517 and 1521. I found the following link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_University_of_Halle-Wittenberg
"The University of Wittenberg (Universität Wittenberg) was founded in 1502 by Frederick the Wise, Elector of Saxony."

So Luther was protected by Frederick the Wise even before the Diet of Worms.

Luther forced the CC into the counter-reformation which was an improvement of sorts though the Papacy still condoned some atrocious acts.

I agree with the counter-reformation as being in reaction to the Protestant movement (not just Luther, but many others as well); but wonder what atrocious acts you are referring to. There has been so much bad history written about this time, I can only counsel you to look for impartial sources to get a true sense for what really occurred and why.

The Church (the universal body of all believers) has never been - nor ever can be - divided for they are bound together by faith in Jesus Christ the Redeemer.

If this is the case, then this whole thread is meaningless, unless one takes the position that all of Catholicism is not Christian and not part of this universal body of all believers. If you accept the premise that all Christians, including Catholics are part of the body of Christ, you have to accept the Pope as one of those. Even the concept of invisible church creates an interesting paradox in logic when people who adhere to that concept, then go on to try to delineate who they consider within and without the church.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Any place, (civil, secular, religious, medical, politic, economic, any school)
Y'SHUA said
If you stand up for the TRUTH
and they don't at that place
they will hate you
and
they will kick you out (or kill you).

 

[ken777]

I think you are inferring a correlation here that to me doesn't exist. I agree with the need for reform; but if asking for reform alone got one excommunicated, then there would be no Saint Francis of Assisi or Saint Catherine of Sienna. The excommunication was done on theological differences between Luther's beliefs and those of the Catholic Church. See the Leipzig Debate and the Papal Bull Exsurge Domine for a detailing of those differences. Truthfully, I find it rather strange that the Edict of Worms is vilified. When you consider that Luther was employed as a theology professor at a Catholic university, it would not make sense to allow him to continue his employment after he refused to recant his positions that were contrary to Catholic theology. I would not expect my employer to continue employing me if I violated their policies or worked against any of their positions. So in essence, Luther had more to do with the outcome of the Diet of Worms than the Pope. Either this is accepted or we make him the unwitting victim of a vast political machine, which though used as propaganda at the time does not fit the facts as I have studied them.

One interesting thing that I discovered while researching this was the reason why Luther's university didn't step forward to try to control his publishing controversial materials between 1517 and 1521. I found the following link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_University_of_Halle-Wittenberg
"The University of Wittenberg (Universität Wittenberg) was founded in 1502 by Frederick the Wise, Elector of Saxony."

So Luther was protected by Frederick the Wise even before the Diet of Worms.



I agree with the counter-reformation as being in reaction to the Protestant movement (not just Luther, but many others as well); but wonder what atrocious acts you are referring to. There has been so much bad history written about this time, I can only counsel you to look for impartial sources to get a true sense for what really occurred and why.



If this is the case, then this whole thread is meaningless, unless one takes the position that all of Catholicism is not Christian and not part of this universal body of all believers. If you accept the premise that all Christians, including Catholics are part of the body of Christ, you have to accept the Pope as one of those. Even the concept of invisible church creates an interesting paradox in logic when people who adhere to that concept, then go on to try to delineate who they consider within and without the church.

Just one of Luther's "errors" condemned in the 1520 Papal Bull "Exsurge Domine":
That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Even the concept of invisible church creates an interesting paradox in logic when people who adhere to that concept, then go on to try to delineate who they consider within and without the church.

It is doubtful that all Catholics (or all of my church for that matter) are part of the Church - the Body of Christ. Only God is the judge of that.

It is not whether some popes are or are not part of the "invisible church" that is being addressed by the OP but whether the office of the Papacy could be "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Revelation 17:8).

There are characteristics described in Revelation 17 that could be applied to the Vatican and the Papacy - such as a city on 7 hills clothed in purple & scarlet that has had dealings with the kings of the earth and has condoned the killing of "heretics" - but then some will identify other cities & leaders.

 

[tz620q]

Just one of Luther's "errors" condemned in the 1520 Papal Bull "Exsurge Domine":
That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

While controversial in today's Kumbaya mentality, at the time it was not that uncommon. See this article about Calvin and Michael Servetus
and this article about
List of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation

So as you can see, there were martyrs on both sides of the Protestant Reformation. One can say that the political authorities carried out the actual executions; but it does not remove the culpability of the churches in these areas, just as executions of heretics within Catholic areas does not remove their responsibility. But the condemnation within Exsurge Domine is not only against the outlawing of killing heretics; but of Luther's ability to speak for the Holy Spirit in this matter.

It is doubtful that all Catholics (or all of my church for that matter) are part of the Church - the Body of Christ. Only God is the judge of that.

It is not whether some popes are or are not part of the "invisible church" that is being addressed by the OP but whether the office of the Papacy could be "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Revelation 17:8).

There are characteristics described in Revelation 17 that could be applied to the Vatican and the Papacy - such as a city on 7 hills clothed in purple & scarlet that has had dealings with the kings of the earth and has condoned the killing of "heretics" - but then some will identify other cities & leaders.

You probably know all the standard arguments against this correlation. The Vatican is actually outside Rome and for the simple reason that Rome did not want a cemetery inside the city, thinking that the spirits of the wrongly killed would haunt them if that was the case. It sits on one hill only since it only covers 109 acres. The Pope will most of the time be seen wearing white, not purple or scarlet. While the Pope might have dealings with the kings of the earth, most of the time he is dealing with the Christians within that king or leader's realm. As far as killing heretics, you should feel safer now than ever, a sure sign that the end times are not nigh, if you are waiting for the Pope to kill a heretic. I can see someone proposing the correlation; but holding to it in this current world seems more and more tenuous.

God be with you.

 

[ken777]

While controversial in today's Kumbaya mentality, at the time it was not that uncommon. See this article about Calvin and Michael Servetus
and this article about
List of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation

So as you can see, there were martyrs on both sides of the Protestant Reformation. One can say that the political authorities carried out the actual executions; but it does not remove the culpability of the churches in these areas, just as executions of heretics within Catholic areas does not remove their responsibility. But the condemnation within Exsurge Domine is not only against the outlawing of killing heretics; but of Luther's ability to speak for the Holy Spirit in this matter.



You probably know all the standard arguments against this correlation. The Vatican is actually outside Rome and for the simple reason that Rome did not want a cemetery inside the city, thinking that the spirits of the wrongly killed would haunt them if that was the case. It sits on one hill only since it only covers 109 acres. The Pope will most of the time be seen wearing white, not purple or scarlet. While the Pope might have dealings with the kings of the earth, most of the time he is dealing with the Christians within that king or leader's realm. As far as killing heretics, you should feel safer now than ever, a sure sign that the end times are not nigh, if you are waiting for the Pope to kill a heretic. I can see someone proposing the correlation; but holding to it in this current world seems more and more tenuous.

God be with you.

The Papacy has a unique history of control that matches many of the the details in Rev 17. The Vatican is surrounded by Rome and controls churches on the seven hills. I have visited most of them and the elaborate decoration reflects the description given in Rev 17:4.

I am not into Catholic bashing because my wife was a wonderful Catholic Christian. And I do not consider the other denominations have anything to boast about.

The Catholic Church is not the Papacy which because of its control is responsible for much evil in its history.

 

[victorinus]

The Papacy has a unique history of control that matches many of the the details in Rev 17.

can you name a few other than the seven hills?

 

[tz620q]

The Papacy has a unique history of control that matches many of the the details in Rev 17. The Vatican is surrounded by Rome and controls churches on the seven hills. I have visited most of them and the elaborate decoration reflects the description given in Rev 17:4.

I am not into Catholic bashing because my wife was a wonderful Catholic Christian. And I do not consider the other denominations have anything to boast about.

The Catholic Church is not the Papacy which because of its control is responsible for much evil in its history.

I can see pagan Rome in Revelation 17. I cannot see that much correlation to the Catholic Church. I think that many falsely equate the Vatican with pagan Rome to further their own agenda of pointing the accusing finger outwards rather than inward. At the time of the writing of Revelation 17, the Vatican was a Christian cemetery on a hill outside of Rome with expensive villas around it. To the Christians of that time it stood for the Roman martyrs for the faith and many made pilgrimages to the necropolis there to pay homage to their Christian forefathers. I chose to marvel at how this simple reverence led to Constantine building a basilica there to Peter and the start of what we now know as the Vatican. This seems a Christian triumph, not a prophetic harbinger of the end.

Please do not try to split the Papacy from the Catholic Church. The actions of the Papacy are within and through the Catholic Church, so the two are inseparable. It would be like saying the hand is not culpable for its actions because it is only doing what it is told by the brain. They make up one body and we do not punish the brain alone; but the whole body. This tactic is one used to try to criticize the Catholic faith while denying that one is actually criticizing Catholics, a strange idea considering that these are the same people who vehemently say that a church is made of its people, not its buildings.

I acknowledge that the Catholic Church has done evil at times; but would like to say that for every evil action you can point to, I could cite a hundred good actions. After all are we going to be judged by our being sinless or our being fruitful even while being sinful.

 

[ken777]

I chose to marvel at how this simple reverence led to Constantine building a basilica there to Peter and the start of what we now know as the Vatican. This seems a Christian triumph, not a prophetic harbinger of the end.

I visited Rome some years ago and marvelled at St Peter's Basilica ... though I could not help but wonder what St Peter, the simple, poor fisherman would think of it.

Please do not try to split the Papacy from the Catholic Church. The actions of the Papacy are within and through the Catholic Church, so the two are inseparable. It would be like saying the hand is not culpable for its actions because it is only doing what it is told by the brain. They make up one body and we do not punish the brain alone; but the whole body. This tactic is one used to try to criticize the Catholic faith while denying that one is actually criticizing Catholics, a strange idea considering that these are the same people who vehemently say that a church is made of its people, not its buildings.

It is the history of the Papacy that I have been addressing, not the Catholic faith itself. And yes, the actions of the Papacy certainly can be criticised apart from the actions of people such as St Francis or Mother Teresa who did so much good.

 

[victorinus]

can you name a few other than the seven hills?

can you address this?