If the majority end up in ect

fhansen · Jun 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
Perhaps to reveal His divine unconditional love or it could be the mystery Paul refers to in Ephesians chapters 1-4.

I believe the only reason to allow evil, stemming from the abuse of free will, is so that we may learn to hate and shun it-and so to choose the good alone, the ultimate true good being God, Himself. So that we might learn that His wisdom and will are perfect-and worth heeding after all. That knowledge is a component, along with revelation and grace, in our turning to Him.

fhansen · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
It's a good question and the only way it can be combined with universal salvation is to posit that this choice can be made after death. To universalists anyway, this is the meaning of Phillipians 2:11:

and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

I think this life affords us the time and knowledge to begin choosing now. And that knowledge includes the knowledge of good and evil, the direct, visceral experience of both so that we may learn to hate the one (evil) and run to the other (good), the good being fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. So that we may learn to do what Adam failed to do: to embrace God rather than dismiss Him. And if we're on that path, remaining in Him, and coming back if we've strayed, overcoming sin and doing His will by the Spirit in the overall sense, He'll finish the work in the next life that began here in this one.

Fervent · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
If hell is a place of eternal suffering then it can only be regarded as an evil, which means that God did not succeed in his plan to overcome evil. This would be true even if only one person was there.

Uh huh, tell me again how justice is an evil.

Halbhh · Jun 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
Colossians 2:15 states Christ had victory.. "In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

But according to most traditions Satan will have victory and the majority of the world will find themselves in a hopeless situation due to their own unwillingness or according to John Calvin the simple fact God chose only a few to redeem.

How can this be so when victory of the cross and Christ defeated the evil serpent who destroyed creation in the very beginning? Does Satan actually have the victory when only a few gain the gift of redemption?

ect is a doctrinal idea (theory) based on certain bible verses but not taking into account all of the bible verses... including even from Christ Himself --

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Christ, in Matthew 10

So, as we read in the famous John 3:16, if we are given eternal life, then we will not be destroyed, will not perish, in the second death --

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -- John chapter 3

So, listening to all of the verses that matter, we get it we are not like the devil and his angels that are already immortal and will therefore endure in that fire -- they will suffer ect because they will not perish there -- but human souls are not like them in a very key way: human souls do not already have eternal life until and unless it is given to us(!) (a change!)...so those consigned to hell will perish in that second death.

It's a merciful death they will experience really. For the unrepentant who have rejected God, and Love. They would be dangerous to allow into a peaceful heaven, because they would continue to do evils, being unchanged.

Hmm · Jun 23, 2022

fhansen said:
I think this life affords us the time and knowledge to begin choosing now. And that knowledge includes the knowledge of good and evil, the direct, visceral experience of both so that we lay learn to hate the one (evil) and run to the other (good), the good being fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. So that we may learn to do what Adam failed to do: to embrace God rather than dismiss Him. And if we're on that path, remaining in Him, and coming back if we've strayed, overcoming sin and doing His will by the Spirit in the overall sense, He'll finish the work in the next life that began here in this one.

Yes, I agree with all of that and it would be clearly be good make that choice now in this life, not just to avoid the what would probably be a long and difficult purification and correction process in the next (assuming universalism is true) but more importantly so that we can live a life that's pleasing to God and enjoy a relationship with Him while here on earth. But I believe that if we do mess up on our first attempt, our education will continue and we'll all eventually pass.

The alternative, it seems to me, of getting just one chance and that's it, is that God will have to change from the infinitely forgiving Father of scripture into a endlessly unforgiving and punitive monster, I would say, at the moment of our death if we didn't make the mark, and His promise to one day be 'all in all' will not be honoured.

wendykvw · Jun 23, 2022

Halbhh said:
ect is a doctrinal idea (theory) based on certain bible verses but not taking into account all of the bible verses... including even from Christ Himself --

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Christ, in Matthew 10

So, as we read in the famous John 3:16, if we are given eternal life, then we will not be destroyed, will not perish, in the second death --

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -- John chapter 3

So, listening to all of the verses that matter, we get it we are not like the devil and his angels that are already immortal and will therefore endure in that fire -- they will suffer ect because they will not perish there -- but human souls are not like them in a very key way: human souls do not already have eternal life until and unless it is given to us(!) (a change!)...so those consigned to hell will perish in that second death.

It's a merciful death they will experience really. For the unrepentant who have rejected God, and Love. They would be dangerous to allow into a peaceful heaven, because they would continue to do evils, being unchanged.

Sounds like evil is demolished with fire rather than torment. Would that sum up your paradigm?

ViaCrucis · Jun 23, 2022

I'd like to recommend a rather small work by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar titled "Dare We Hope" in which he makes the case that there is nothing in Scripture or the historic teaching of the Church that says we cannot hope for the ultimate salvation of all (though we can never say that all WILL be saved). And regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with Balthasar, it should provide for thought provoking read.

-CryptoLutheran

fhansen · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
Yes, I agree with all of that and it would be clearly be good make that choice now in this life, not just to avoid the what would probably be a long and difficult purification and correction process in the next (assuming universalism is true) but more importantly so that we can live a life that's pleasing to God and enjoy a relationship with Him while here on earth. But I believe that if we do mess up on our first attempt, our education will continue and we'll all eventually pass.

The alternative, it seems to me, of getting just one chance and that's it, is that God will have to change from the infinitely forgiving Father of scripture into a endlessly unforgiving and punitive monster, I would say, at the moment of our death if we didn't make the mark, and His promise to one day be 'all in all' will not be honoured.

For myself a central message of Christianity is that God's on our side-all of us-and always has been. The main question is whether or not we'll eventually reciprocate. We sin because we're not yet totally sold out to Him. Other, lesser, created, things can still distract us and win our love above Him first above all else. To the extent that we finally love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, our justice/righteousness is complete and our very purpose will be fulfilled. And our satisfaction, happiness, wholeness, would be absolute and uncompromised, incidentally.

wendykvw · Jun 23, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
It isn't a competition.

Satan didn't destroy creation.

We don't know the numbers because Revelation states the elect will be so many they will be uncountable.

Satan is no competition clearly of the creator of the universe. The Victory of Christ declares the end of human efforts to restore what the devil destroyed.

wendykvw · Jun 23, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
I'd like to recommend a rather small work by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar titled "Dare We Hope" in which he makes the case that there is nothing in Scripture or the historic teaching of the Church that says we cannot hope for the ultimate salvation of all (though we can never say that all WILL be saved). And regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with Balthasar, it should provide for thought provoking read.

-CryptoLutheran

A Great book.

Hmm · Jun 23, 2022

fhansen said:
For myself a central message of Christianity is that God's on our side-all of us-and always has been. The main question is whether or not we'll eventually reciprocate. We sin because we're not yet totally sold out to Him. Other, lesser, created, things can still distract us and win our love above Him first above all else. To the extent that we finally love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves, our justice/righteousness is complete and our very purpose will be fulfilled. And our satisfaction, happiness, wholeness, would be absolute and uncompromised, incidentally.

I think we're in complete agreement except on the question of whether death is the final cut off point or we're given a second chance. For me, there must be a second chance because God couldn't otherwise ever be 'all in all' - because clearly we don't all reciprocate His love in this life - and also because I don't believe that either of the possible alternatives, annihilation or something like eternal torment/separation, are compatible with a God of love. I could be wrong of course, but if I was and either ECT or Annihilationism is true, I would reject such a god anyway so that's a relatively easy acknowledgement for me to make - my beliefs would just change from how God is to how I think He should be. I don't think that's arrogance because He has commanded us to love and forgive our enemies, and I don't believe He would do anything less than that Himself. So if I'm wrong about that, then it just means that he is not God for me. This isn't so much a philosophical view for me though. I honestly believe scripture overwhelming supports universal restoration through a free turning to Christ but that's another topic I guess.

Hmm · Jun 23, 2022

Fervent said:
Uh huh, tell me again how justice is an evil.

Your question makes no sense to me alas.

Carl Emerson · Jun 23, 2022

public hermit said:
It does appear, assuming only some are reconciled with God, that God is either too weak to obtain victory or simply inept. It's as if God set out to create a good creation but didn't count the cost.

Paul clearly states that only some are created for salvation. This idea of God being weak is approaching blasphemous...

Fervent · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
Your question makes no sense to me alas.

There's no question, simply pointing out that you are referring to a penal system as an evil. Prisons are not evil simply because prisones suffer, in fact suffering and evil are only superficially related. So your premise that hell would be "evil" is false on its face.

Hmm · Jun 23, 2022

Fervent said:
There's no question, simply pointing out that you are referring to a penal system as an evil. Prisons are not evil simply because prisones suffer, in fact suffering and evil are only superficially related. So your premise that hell would be "evil" is false on its face.

Oh dear. Perhaps you'd like to quote me where I said the penal system is evil. Or are you just making things up again?

Just to humour you, a prison sentence for an eternity with no parole and no rehabilitation, just one of torment, would be a evil but that's just a fiction you may believe in but one which is not possible under our judicial system, which is why I never referred to it.

Fervent · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
Oh dear. Perhaps you'd like to quote me where I said the penal system is evil. Or are you just making things up again?

Just to humour you, a prison sentence for an eternity with no parole and no rehabilitation, just one of torment, would be a evil but that's just a fiction you may believe in but one which is not possible under our judicial system, which is why I never referred to it.

So now you make an assertion that assumes the case from the get-go. Great use of reason there, why bother building a case when we can just make declarations unsupported?

BravoM · Jun 23, 2022

RickReads said:
Calvin gets hammered everywhere around here

That is the way.

Hmm · Jun 23, 2022

Fervent said:
So now you make an assertion that assumes the case from the get-go. Great use of reason there, why bother building a case when we can just make declarations unsupported?

I find it impossible to discuss anything with you.

RickReads · Jun 23, 2022

BravoM said:
That is the way.

What is?

RickReads · Jun 23, 2022

Hmm said:
I find it impossible to discuss anything with you.

You should stick to talking to reasonable people like me for instance.

If the majority end up in ect

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