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If the majority end up in ect

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by wendykvw, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Colossians 2:15 states Christ had victory.. "In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

    But according to most traditions Satan will have victory and the majority of the world will find themselves in a hopeless situation due to their own unwillingness or according to John Calvin the simple fact God chose only a few to redeem.

    How can this be so when victory of the cross and Christ defeated the evil serpent who destroyed creation in the very beginning? Does Satan actually have the victory when only a few gain the gift of redemption?
     
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  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    It isn't a competition.

    Satan didn't destroy creation.

    We don't know the numbers because Revelation states the elect will be so many they will be uncountable.
     
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  3. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Calvin is not God, God decides how many people are saved and God said 2 pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
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  4. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Calvin gets hammered everywhere around here :liturgy:
     
  5. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    If hell is a place of eternal suffering then it can only be regarded as an evil, which means that God did not succeed in his plan to overcome evil. This would be true even if only one person was there.
     
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  6. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The venomous serpent was hated. They had to blame it for the failings of mankind.

    If one repents and heeds God’s calling, one might succeed instead of fail. An alcoholic will become sober. An ignorant person will become studious. A liar will stop guessing and give correct answers. A sick person will be healed through medical knowledge. A warrior will no longer desire to kill.
     
  7. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    Those people in Hell chose to be there, and God respected their decision, and He gave them a whole lifetime to be sure that's what they wanted.

    If they had changed their mind at the last minute of their life, and chosen Christ as their redeemer, God would have listened, forgiven them, and they would be in heaven.
    But they chose what they wanted, and that was hell.
     
  8. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    God's plan and promise was to renew His creation and be "all in all" once again as He was in Eden. If one person falls outside that plan and suffers forever more then He has obviously failed to achieve this plan and keep this promise, whatever free-will reason you can come up with to explain that. I don't agree with your reason btw but that's off topic and it's been discussed enough in other universalist threads anyway.
     
  9. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte-tested and approved Supporter

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    Poor Calvin, and he was such a kind, loving guy, too. ;)
     
  10. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte-tested and approved Supporter

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    It does appear, assuming only some are reconciled with God, that God is either too weak to obtain victory or simply inept. It's as if God set out to create a good creation but didn't count the cost. :scratch:
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Fallen man is lost; he has no hope, he’s alienated from God, not knowing Him and with no way to find Him on his own. God must come to us and reveal Himself and the ultimate revelation of God is in the person of Jesus Christ. Now we have the definitive choice, between good and evil, and the reason and means to overcome evil in ourselves. We can open the door when He knocks and allow Him in, and continue to do so throughout our lives, or not.

    The will of man is involved, from Eden until now, and from the beginning of our lives until the end. God is always there for us; He’s always been there and Jesus proves that. Our own pride-driven rebelliousness separates us from Him. We’re the wildcard, not Him. We value and allow His victory to take place in us, or not.

    If God’s purpose through Christ was simply to defeat evil without regard to our own choice in the matter, then why would He ever have allowed evil to begin with???
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  12. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    You did not just say that :doh:
     
  13. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Codswallop. Nobody, given a credible choice between endless joy and endless torture, chooses torture. Fact is that in the ECT view, endless torture is the default, where those who make no choice at all for whatever reason end up. All by God's design, you see. Nobody was consulted as to their opinion it. The "the damned choose damnation " line is rubbish, designed to hold on to the horrific doctrine but keep God from looking like a pitiless monster.
     
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  14. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    And if they don't they should be tortured forever
     
  15. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Bingo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  16. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not think so. I think it is like they will go to sleep and not wake up. God is merciful, not a torturer.
     
  17. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Perhaps to reveal His divine unconditional love or it could be the mystery Paul refers to in Ephesians chapters 1-4.
     
  18. Hmm

    Hmm Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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    It's a good question and the only way it can be combined with universal salvation is to posit that this choice can be made after death. To universalists anyway, this is the meaning of Phillipians 2:11:

    and every tongue should confess
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.
     
  19. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Your right it was Adam. According to traditional views Adam had victory not Jesus Christ.
    But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [benefit] the many.”

    -Romans 5:15
     
  20. wendykvw

    wendykvw Restoration Minister, Author, Cosplay Artist. Supporter

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    Christ said Satan was a murder from the beginning. Satan's action in Eden was an act of murder. The end of the story ends with death and Satan being defeated and the entire creation being reconciled and restored to their original pre-fallen condition and restored back to God.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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