If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[paulm50]

Chug (translated "circle") can also mean sphere or round...see Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon....

Christopher Columbus, at odds with the Hierarchical Roman Church, read in Isaiah 40 about the alleged “Khug“, or roundness of the Earth (the King James interprets this word as “circle“), he never hesitated to venture off with the same fullness of faith, that later inspired Newton. He did not for one minute doubt the world was round because it was the word of the very God who made the world. The diaries, or journals, of Christopher Columbus, which we now have, actually testify that he personally never saw his journey as holding the danger of falling off the edge of some Aristotlian flatworld! Columbus was entirely convinced from Scripture, that the Holy Spirit had assured him that the world was round (just as many before him believed).

Paul

That period is the best example of how powerful people use religion to get what they want. The number of atrocities committed then makes the child abuse scandals today, seem little. And there's no way they are. Millions were killed in pursuit of money, by people claiming it was what god wanted. Spain spent it all on useless wars and bankrupted the country. And lost. Killing 7.5 million in the process. And people ask.

Do you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?. No because it was clearly a waste of time. As a god he would of done far more, as a man. He couldn't.

 

[Winepress777]

If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

God Bless!

The same way that everything else is true, if you've been given to know anything at all by your creator;

(Mat 13:34) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:


(Mat 13:35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

(Mar 4:11) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

(Mar 4:12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

 

[Chriliman]

Do you believe there is one God who created this universe? I don't know what came before the Universe. This link might help.

Do you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? No, he would of achieved more if he had got off the cross, told Pilot he's a god and can't be killed. Then gone to Rome and started converting them there. Why he never went to Rome, where the real power of the day was, is the mystery. By doing so he would of achieved his goal, and saved billions of lives.

Do you believe satan and evil are real? No. I believe men were created with evil inside them. And therefore accept their god when he does evil things.

This is a common question and the simple answer is that God allows evil in order to teach His Truth. God did not create evil. your god created us, therefore he created the evil in us. He also has created evil. The Tree of Knowledge, serpent, Eve unable to resist temptation, looking on Abel gift more favourable than Cain's. What ever they were doing in Sodom and Gomorrah was pleasurable, a pleasure created by god within us. The Ark of the Covenant. Do you want me to go on with more?

There are many more examples of Man and Nature being evil or making bad things happen. Then the priests tell the people it was their fault for not doing what the priests (god) tell them. The things priests have told people what god wants, usually ends up with the priests better off. The best lesson in the bible is Jesus casting out the money lenders. He saw the corruption that had taken over the church, that has carried on till today.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So beware of what a person who may look good, says.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you because you seem very confused. Your faith is labeled as Christian, yet you do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how can you claim to be Christian? You contradict yourself with this answer to the question: Do you believe satan and evil are real?

"No. I believe men were created with evil inside them. And therefore accept their god when he does evil things."

You're saying men were created...well created by what? You also acknowledge that evil does exist in men, but say no to the question of whether or not you believe evil is real...seems contradictory to me.

You then quote scripture in an attempt to support your view of what is true. If you don't believe scripture is true why would you ever quote it in order to support your view of what is true? If you don't believe scripture is true you should support things that show that scripture is not true you should not use that scripture to support your belief that scripture is not true. This would be like me trying to use scientific facts to prove that scientific facts are not true, do you see how counterintuitive that is?

In fact we can use scientific facts to support our belief that scripture is true.

What you seem to be attempting to do is use scripture to support your belief that scientific facts are the only truth, again why would you use something you don't believe is true to support what you believe is true? Just honest questions. When I ask an honest question I expect an honest answer, unfortunately that's not what I always get.

 

[paulm50]

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you because you seem very confused. Your faith is labeled as Christian, yet you do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how can you claim to be Christian? You contradict yourself with this answer to the question: Do you believe satan and evil are real?

"No. I believe men were created with evil inside them. And therefore accept their god when he does evil things."

You're saying men were created...well created by what? You also acknowledge that evil does exist in men, but say no to the question of whether or not you believe evil is real...seems contradictory to me.

You're getting very confused because you're clinging to a book written by men in a time of little knowledge and with political aims.

I believe in the fundamental lessons of being good to one another. Much of it is in what Jesus says. The sacrifice of Jesus, resulted in what? Really think that one through, because the lass 2,000 years has been pretty grim.

Satan is as real as god. Men are evil.

Men were created by nature, that's an obvious one.

You then quote scripture in an attempt to support your view of what is true. If you don't believe scripture is true why would you ever quote it in order to support your view of what is true? If you don't believe scripture is true you should support things that show that scripture is not true you should not use that scripture to support your belief that scripture is not true. This would be like me trying to use scientific facts to prove that scientific facts are not true, do you see how counterintuitive that is?

Just showing how easy it is to quote the bible to show a biased view. I can quote Jesus where he got it wrong. The OR is a great place to quote from, to show how wrong they were.

In fact we can use scientific facts to support our belief that scripture is true.

Do so please.

[/QUOTE]What you seem to be attempting to do is use scripture to support your belief that scientific facts are the only truth, again why would you use something you don't believe is true to support what you believe is true? Just honest questions. When I ask an honest question I expect an honest answer, unfortunately that's not what I always get.[/QUOTE]

The science backs up some of the bible's claims. Genesis is wrong, science has proven it wrong. Jericho existed, just wasn't destroyed in the time of Joshua, the flood Noah experienced happened. But an act of nature not god and not worldwide. Egypt has plagues, slaves, and the exodus story is a mystery. As the Egyptians never mention it. And there's so much more that science has proven happened, and the people of the time put it down to god. When nature was the culprit.

Jesus lived, proven. Paul lived and changed what he was preaching enough. to encourage gentiles to join. Something Jesus didn't want. Jesus and the old law.

And that's how easy it is to change the written word.

Not the answer you wanted? Because I will never believe the bible 100%

 

[Chriliman]

You're getting very confused because you're clinging to a book written by men in a time of little knowledge and with political aims.

I believe in the fundamental lessons of being good to one another. Much of it is in what Jesus says. The sacrifice of Jesus, resulted in what? Really think that one through, because the lass 2,000 years has been pretty grim.

Satan is as real as god. Men are evil.

Men were created by nature, that's an obvious one.



Just showing how easy it is to quote the bible to show a biased view. I can quote Jesus where he got it wrong. The OR is a great place to quote from, to show how wrong they were.



Do so please.

The science backs up some of the bible's claims. Genesis is wrong, science has proven it wrong. Jericho existed, just wasn't destroyed in the time of Joshua, the flood Noah experienced happened. But an act of nature not god and not worldwide. Egypt has plagues, slaves, and the exodus story is a mystery. As the Egyptians never mention it. And there's so much more that science has proven happened, and the people of the time put it down to god. When nature was the culprit.

Jesus lived, proven. Paul lived and changed what he was preaching enough. to encourage gentiles to join. Something Jesus didn't want. Jesus and the old law.

And that's how easy it is to change the written word.

Not the answer you wanted? Because I will never believe the bible 100%

Okay, I'm going to break all this down in a very simple and easy way to understand.

We all have beliefs correct? What must come before a belief can be established? Knowledge must come before a belief can be established.

So where does knowledge come from? Knowledge comes from observation of our universe, correct? Where does the ability to observe come from? Our ability to observe comes from our subjective minds.

Where did our subjective minds come from? Our subjective minds came from existence. Where did existence come from? Well maybe existence has always existed. Have you ever known anything that didn't exist?

Maybe, since you exist you will never cease to exist. So what happens when we die? Maybe, we continue to exist but just in a different form that is incomprehensible simply because we are subjective beings at the moment.

Okay, so what's the oldest book you can think of that explains this idea of something existing forever and therefore not needing to be created? The Bible is the oldest book I can think of that explains this and that "something" that it explains as always existing and never being "created" is God.

How does such an old book explain the very question that still perplexes us today? Maybe, it's because this book was inspired by something that understands everything about our universe and even beyond our universe.

This is great reason for me to believe in the God of the Holy Bible and I believe all scripture is God breathed and has a purpose that will fulfill God's will.

 

[Merlin]

No, the Bible never refers to the Earth as a sphere. It does refer to the Earth as a flat disc. Most of those that make the "Bible says the Earth is spherical" claim make a basic geometry fail.

Actually,
the Bible does refer to the Earth as round. However when confronted with the Hebrew word for round the 15th century English translators chose to describe the Earth as more plate like or disc like.
Both translations are valid it is just that one translation of the word in English would be better than the other word.

 

[Merlin]

But many people in the 14th and 15th centuries knew the earth was a sphere, especially anyone near the sea. The could see that ships disappeared gradually over the horizon and also knew that the earths shadow on the moon showed the earth as spherical.

Yes, I suppose they did. But the translators of the bible chose to use words that implied more of a disc shape than a sphere shape.Anyways the point is the bible is not an error the 15th century translators are in error.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Chug (translated "circle") can also mean sphere or round...see Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon....

Christopher Columbus, at odds with the Hierarchical Roman Church, read in Isaiah 40 about the alleged “Khug“, or roundness of the Earth (the King James interprets this word as “circle“), he never hesitated to venture off with the same fullness of faith, that later inspired Newton. He did not for one minute doubt the world was round because it was the word of the very God who made the world. The diaries, or journals, of Christopher Columbus, which we now have, actually testify that he personally never saw his journey as holding the danger of falling off the edge of some Aristotlian flatworld! Columbus was entirely convinced from Scripture, that the Holy Spirit had assured him that the world was round (just as many before him believed).

Paul

Sorry, links please. For example this site explain why Chuwg refers to a flat disc and not a circle by usage of that word and "Dur" or ball. He also points to other verses that only make sense if they believed the Earth to be flat:

http://rationalresponses.blogspot.com/2014/08/does-hebrew-word-chuwg-mean-flat-circle.html

And I Google searched your source and it seems to be a bit tainted. It was written with the Bible in mind, that would indicate that the authors would be a bit biased and would want to correct the errors in the Bible. Can you find an unbiased source that makes this translation. I have seen people claim that actual Hebrew lexicons never have this translation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually,
the Bible does refer to the Earth as round. However when confronted with the Hebrew word for round the 15th century English translators chose to describe the Earth as more plate like or disc like.
Both translations are valid it is just that one translation of the word in English would be better than the other word.

Nope, from what I have read that is not the case. It uses a word for a flat circle and not a sphere. The translators got this one right. The Bible says that the Earth is flat.

 

[paulm50]

Okay, I'm going to break all this down in a very simple and easy way to understand.

We all have beliefs correct? What must come before a belief can be established? Knowledge must come before a belief can be established.

So where does knowledge come from? Knowledge comes from observation of our universe, correct? Where does the ability to observe come from? Our ability to observe comes from our subjective minds.

Where did our subjective minds come from? Our subjective minds came from existence. Where did existence come from? Well maybe existence has always existed. Have you ever known anything that didn't exist?

Maybe, since you exist you will never cease to exist. So what happens when we die? Maybe, we continue to exist but just in a different form that is incomprehensible simply because we are subjective beings at the moment.

Okay, so what's the oldest book you can think of that explains this idea of something existing forever and therefore not needing to be created? The Bible is the oldest book I can think of that explains this and that "something" that it explains as always existing and never being "created" is God.

How does such an old book explain the very question that still perplexes us today? Maybe, it's because this book was inspired by something that understands everything about our universe and even beyond our universe.

This is great reason for me to believe in the God of the Holy Bible and I believe all scripture is God breathed and has a purpose that will fulfill God's will.

You assume it explains it correctly. I know it doesn't and can prove it.

The sequence is wrong, it misses out so many creatures that came before man and were here longer, it misses out all the Hominids that came before man, and some who were here along with Homo Sapiens. It totally misses the Hunter Gatherer period. Putting Cain and Abel straight into farming. In the life of man, we were hunter gatherers for a lot longer than farmers. Some tribes still are. There's visual proof of our ancestry, look up Cave Paintings.

As for the question that perplexes, not for most people. They can see the truth by visiting a museum, college or just looking online.

I continually come up with why I believe in science and finding out for myself. And ignore Man Made books written by sinners. Proof the bible is written by man. Most modern people realise it's a collection of stories and not a book of facts.

This is where you're going to be more satisfied. Where the questions are made, answered and accepted by the same person who believes, and uses the bible to back up himself.

The bit about Shakespeare is silly, why not say the Torar, Quran, or Scientology. But that would be the wrong answer, the writer doesn't want.

 

[Anguspure]

I understand Einstein's theory of relativity. I know how the first 24hrs of a Big Bang expansion could be measured as 8 billion years of our time at our speed. I don't think, however, that it is relevant to the text as narrative. I think the Author is addressing something else with the seven days. I agree with you that we have to keep the sovereignty of the Creator in its proper place.

On one level I agree, however the beauty of text inspired by the Spirit of God lies in the fact that multiple levels of complimentary understanding may be revealed with study. The jots and tittles communicate more to someone with understanding than whole paragraphs of non-inspired text.
It is interesting that the Author links 6 days of creation and 1 of rest to the 4th commandment given on Sinai by the same author.
One Rabbinical understanding of the reason for this commandment is in turn linked to the 9th commandment in that by keeping the sabbath apart from the rest of the days we are bearing truthful witness about our Creator.

 

[paulm50]

On one level I agree, however the beauty of text inspired by the Spirit of God lies in the fact that multiple levels of complimentary understanding may be revealed with study. The jots and tittles communicate more to someone with understanding than whole paragraphs of non-inspired text.
It is interesting that the Author links 6 days of creation and 1 of rest to the 4th commandment given on Sinai by the same author.
One Rabbinical understanding of the reason for this commandment is in turn linked to the 9th commandment in that by keeping the sabbath apart from the rest of the days we are bearing truthful witness about our Creator.

Then it would of been day one that the sun, stars and Universe, including the Earth were created.

Am I right in saying. If the Earth was created with the big bang, revolves on it's axis, the second day would of been 24 hours?

The writers were talking about the world they knew and saw then. Not how it was created by a long process. Obviously the Sabbath refers to the people's understanding then of the bible. Doesn't make it right though.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that...

1. Sometimes before the big bang, or the creation of the universe - Lucifer rebels in heaven, taking a third of the angels with him.
2. After the big bang, or the creation of the universe - The universe expands out from a point of origin. I believe that here Lucifer senses that a species will be created to replace his vacated position.
3. At some point he sees and understands the timeline of earth...

And the devil, taking him (Christ Jesus) up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. - Luke 4:5

If Lucifer can see that far into earth's future, I believe that he saw we human's coming before the creation of Earth and he senses our creation to fill his vacated position.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

Space and mass - Nothing else

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:2

Space and mass - Nothing else
Waters - The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is obscured by dark clouds. As this center can be observed with infrared light I can only assume this as H2O water.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

As m = E/c2 so the mass dissociates into energy and light flowing out as plasma from a point of origins forming into what elements the Father willed it to.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. - Genesis 1:4

Keep in mind that the first day has not occurred yet. By dividing the light from the darkness the earth is put in orbit around the sun, dividing the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5

Now we are ready for the first day and the seven day creation story... 15 billion years from the time that God said, "Let there be light!" Now for Genesis 1:6- If I had to arrange things in a timeline...

15+ billion years - Lucifer rebels taking a third of the angels
15 billion years - Big bang, or creation of the universe
4000 BC - God divides the light from the darkness, the earth is formed and inhabited six days after.
0 BC - 32 AD - The life and sacrifice of Christ Jesus
2060 AD - The return of Christ with his saints (I have got to go with Isaac Newton here)
3071 AD - The final battle after a millennial of peace.

--------------------------------------------

From there we have three earth ages...

1. The first earth age
2. The middle ages
3.The seven church ages

The first earth age...

The seven church ages...

--------------------------------------------

As seven is a number of perfection, so God is going to allow the Earth to exist 6,000 years, with about a 400 year extension, this I take as days of grace. This will be followed by a millennial of peace when Lucifer will be vanished for a thousand years from the planet Earth. So the reign of man on earth will be 7,000 years.

When Lucifer is loosed he will try one more time to instigate a rebellion in which he will loose.

--------------------------------------------

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

As m = E/c2 so the elements will disassociate back into the energy and light from whence they were created and return back to God. God then will use that energy to recreate a new heaven and earth...

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. - 1 Peter 4:13

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: - 1 Peter 5:1

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Romans 8:18

So God has not revealed what he is going to do with that enormous amount of energy and light that will return to him through the disassociation of the universe. But I do believe that it will be glorious, and that we saints of God who have weathered the trials of this Earth will be glad on our arrival.

 

[Chriliman]

You assume it explains it correctly. I know it doesn't and can prove it.

The sequence is wrong, it misses out so many creatures that came before man and were here longer, it misses out all the Hominids that came before man, and some who were here along with Homo Sapiens. It totally misses the Hunter Gatherer period. Putting Cain and Abel straight into farming. In the life of man, we were hunter gatherers for a lot longer than farmers. Some tribes still are. There's visual proof of our ancestry, look up Cave Paintings.

As for the question that perplexes, not for most people. They can see the truth by visiting a museum, college or just looking online.

I continually come up with why I believe in science and finding out for myself. And ignore Man Made books written by sinners. Proof the bible is written by man. Most modern people realise it's a collection of stories and not a book of facts.

This is where you're going to be more satisfied. Where the questions are made, answered and accepted by the same person who believes, and uses the bible to back up himself.

The bit about Shakespeare is silly, why not say the Torar, Quran, or Scientology. But that would be the wrong answer, the writer doesn't want.

Does the following verse mean anything to you? If so what do you think it means?

2 Peter 2:1-3
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

Or, how about this one.

Titus 3:9
"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."

If you believe there is a possibility God exists, then I strongly suggest you get serious about figuring out if that possibility is real. If you have any respect for the Bible, I strongly suggest you start studying it deeper with God in mind, He just might start teaching you something about Himself.

 

[Neogaia777]

I should have picked up on that. Not even most Christians are creationists. Let alone all deists.

Define "creationist", I believe that God "created" and set everything in motion, and as to how much he interacts with that creation, i guess only God knows, but I do believe that God did create his creation to interact with it, gives it nudges along the way, and man is a special creation, and he created them to live in an interactive relationship with God.

I might be a creationist but not in the atypical sense, I believe in evolution, for example, but that God created the universe, and seeded the earth.

I'm not a deist, I believe in the spiritual/supernatural here on earth, deist deny miraculous powers and ability through man, through Christ.

 

[Beaker]

He also said people living in his time would see a lot that never happened.

So was he lying or the people who wrote his story?

God CANNOT lie. We are still in HIS time and we are STILL seeing prophecies being fulfilled today

 

[HitchSlap]

In order to "literally" interpret anything in the Bible and expect truth to be revealed you must have the Holy Spirit. God himself determines who has the Holy Spirit. A sure way to receive the Holy Spirit is to believe in Jesus with all your heart, soul and mind. Many people understand the concept of Jesus with their minds, but not their heart or soul. You cannot expect to interpret the Bible in any meaningful way using only your mind.

Metaphysical woo-woo nonsense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Define "creationist", I believe that God "created" and set everything in motion, and as to how much he interacts with that creation, i guess only God knows, but I do believe that God did create his creation to interact with it, gives it nudges along the way, and man is a special creation, and he created them to live in an interactive relationship with God.

I might be a creationist but not in the atypical sense, I believe in evolution, for example, but that God created the universe, and seeded the earth.

I'm not a deist, I believe in the spiritual/supernatural here on earth, deist deny miraculous powers and ability through man, through Christ.

There are all sorts of creationists. If you accept evolution you would barely qualify as a creationist. Almost always a creationist denies evolution. And if you believe that man is a special creation then you are guilty of special pleading. The evidence clearly supports the evolution of man too.

 

[paulm50]

Does the following verse mean anything to you? If so what do you think it means?

2 Peter 2:1-3
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

Yes it tells me to ask questions and check the answers to see if they're true.

Titus 3:9
"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."

It tells me not to ask questions and accept whatever I'm told without question.

If you believe there is a possibility God exists, then I strongly suggest you get serious about figuring out if that possibility is real. If you have any respect for the Bible, I strongly suggest you start studying it deeper with God in mind, He just might start teaching you something about Himself.

Good advice. You should think of it as well. If there is a god and the bible is full of errors, is it the book we should be guided by?

As Peter says False Prophets are everywhere. So research how inaccurate the bible is and question if the writers wer in touch with god.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It could also be that your interpretation of science, as you understand it, could be wrong.

But if that is the case he doesn't know it . . . because if he knew it was wrong, it wouldn't be his interpretation of the science. Same goes for one's interpretation of the Bible.