If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[Merlin]

You need to go back and read Genesis. My Bible says day four is when the Sun and stars were created. The creation of light does not mean the creation of the sun. The Bible does not speak of a spherical body. Circular yes. A curved horizon does not mean a spherical earth to the people of that time. Don't be so sure the people of the time would grasp a spherical earth from that passage. Arguing here for no reason.

You need to keep in mind that most of the translation work from ancient Hebrew into English was done during the 14th and 15th centuries.
Trying to argue modern science does not work mostly because the translation work was done before modern science.
The bible does actually refer to the earth as a sphere but that did not make sense in the 14th century so it was translated as circular to make sense to the translators.
Just as the points of light in the night sky were translated as stars even though we now know there are many objects in the night sky besides stars.

 

[Chriliman]

The Bible is always the best place to go to teach and instruct any believer and it has a clear message in regards to this question you have about Genesis.

James 1:5
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."

What you might find is that God isn't ready to teach you about Genesis yet, He may want to teach you something completely different that you had no idea you needed teaching in, but as soon as you learn it, you realize it was exactly what you needed to continue in your faith. This is why you hear the term "God works in mysterious ways". His ways are mysterious up until there not anymore and they make complete sense to us. God's incredible!

God bless you on your search for truth, just remember God has been searching/waiting for you the entire time. Just be honest with yourself and He will reveal Himself to you through the Holy Spirit when you truly believe the absolute truth of Jesus Christ. You'll then realize how futile your efforts where and you'll realize you exist because of His grace and love and the only true purpose you have is to glorify Him. Amen!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet science has not yet been able to show how life began on its own. There are no valid explanations as to how the DNA was formed on its own containing within its structure the information for all life. There is no valid scientific hypothesis or scientific evidence. The conditions that science says would have been required to form life never existed on this planet. By default I have to believe in a creator. It is impossible for me to accept that the DNA and all its information happened on its own.

That problem is closer to being solved than you realize. And you have simply moved the goalposts. We know that evolution is correct. There is no doubt about that in science.

Also your argument is a strawman. That is two logical fallacies in one post. You are misstating how life is thought to have started.

 

[paulm50]

You need to go back and read Genesis. My Bible says day four is when the Sun and stars were created. The creation of light does not mean the creation of the sun. The Bible does not speak of a spherical body. Circular yes. A curved horizon does not mean a spherical earth to the people of that time. Don't be so sure the people of the time would grasp a spherical earth from that passage. Arguing here for no reason.

For the big bang to happen 4 days after the creation of the Earth is grabbing at straws. Round is something people of the time would grasp. Also check out what the bible says about the Sun revolving around the Earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You need to keep in mind that most of the translation work from ancient Hebrew into English was done during the 14th and 15th centuries.
Trying to argue modern science does not work mostly because the translation work was done before modern science.
The bible does actually refer to the earth as a sphere but that did not make sense in the 14th century so it was translated as circular to make sense to the translators.
Just as the points of light in the night sky were translated as stars even though we now know there are many objects in the night sky besides stars.

No, the Bible never refers to the Earth as a sphere. It does refer to the Earth as a flat disc. Most of those that make the "Bible says the Earth is spherical" claim make a basic geometry fail.

 

[paulm50]

The Bible is always the best place to go to teach and instruct any believer and it has a clear message in regards to this question you have about Genesis.

James 1:5
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."

Can you point me to where I can ask god please. And don't tell me the bible, that's a man made book that's clearly wrong.

 

[paulm50]

Followed the link but can't find it and I can't get the BBC but would like to see "your inner fish..."

I don't think that Moses or God lied. Why would you think that? Check out "David's Gifts" on Amazon. There is a good explanation of God's attempts to make a perfect being. We oversimplify what God has done on this earth. We second guess His process of creation. Mostly because He left a lot of blanks in the story. Our nature is to fill in those blanks. We all have ideas of how it was done and why it was done and no one's depiction is better than any other's.

It's on 11:00 PM - 11:55 PM today. It can be recorded on that site.

I need books that are backed by science, not books backed by what Bronze Age man knew from stories he had been told for 100s to 1,000s of years.

The bible over simplifies it to a degree that one must question the men who wrote it. The depiction we have today of how we got here is very clear, even with the missing pieces.

The problem with believing the bible word for word, is too much is very vague and open to be translated by evil men. Take heed of this. "And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14

More. http://www.openbible.info/topics/witches Read and consider them in the hands of Popes, Cardinals and any clergy. That's why we must question those words, to seek what is true. Man is full of sin, so maybe some of the writers and editors weren't "without sin". We know the priest in Babylon and Constantine had political motives. And were followed by many more politicians in a priest garb.

Even those who try to fill gaps that aren't in the bible, or interpret the errors to fit the truth, are showing what can be done with a book that's very vague in parts. Even saying. "There is a good explanation of God's attempts to make a perfect being." It hardly covers the million of attempts made.

 

[ScottA]

If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

God Bless!

All of scripture is true. The better question would be: What is literal truth, or ultimate truth? The answer, is what is true in the end. But only a fool would presume to speculate facts by extrapolation, when the truth is already a known fact. In other words, ALL knowledge supersedes partial knowledge. One cannot possibly know the whole book by reading just one chapter...not meaning Geneses of course, but the meaning of all of life and history. There is only one Source for such superseding information, and it explains everything that was, and is, and is to come. But many do not believe.

But getting back to a simpler answer to your question: Imagine explaining an abstract fact to someone (to a child perhaps). You would begin at some beginning, tell your abstract fact, and finish with some sort of ending. Your explanation would then tell what was, what is, and what will be. But if that abstract fact of which you were explaining were about a timeless existance, but you took time to explain it, although it ALREADY "is" and is timeless...then your explanation would be "true" EXACTLY as you told it...yet Time would only be for understanding...and otherwise NOT true at all. Time, you see, is like that. Time is (scientifically and spiritually) an illusion.

 

[Chriliman]

Can you point me to where I can ask god please. And don't tell me the bible, that's a man made book that's clearly wrong.

You're missing the point. If you believe in God then you can ask Him in prayer, but as I explained He will give you an answere just not in the way you want it or when you want it, God is in control and He will show you that until your humble enough to accept it and turn to Him for everything. One thing you should not do is stray from His word which is the Bible because He teaches through it. If you seek true wisdom you should be wise and keep Gods word at all times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're missing the point. If you believe in God then you can ask Him in prayer, but as I explained He will give you an answere just not in the way you want it or when you want it, God is in control and He will show you that until your humble enough to accept it and turn to Him for everything. One thing you should not do is stray from His word which is the Bible because He teaches through it. If you seek true wisdom you should be wise and keep Gods word at all times.

What do you mean by "and keep Gods word at all times."

How many Gods are there? What is or are "Gods word"? It looks like there is only one of them.

 

[ScottA]

SCIENCE IS GREAT, it's just extremely limited: If a group of people were all born into a large room and no one had been or seen outside the room, who would actually know what was outside? It's the same with people of the world. The answer is, no one could possibly know ANYTHING intelligent about the outside (about the bigger picture, about the bigger questions of life and the universe)...unless...it came into them from the outside. Yes, the scientist could tell you many things about what is inside, a teacher could teach it, and we could all have our opinions and even vote about it. But it would all be speculation, BS. There IS information coming in from outside, and there have been witnesses to it all throughout history...but you're not listening. You got your fingers in your ears. Meanwhile, you go on with your noses pressed inward making claims of superior knowledge. You know SO LITTLE! And the irony is, that if the same ones professing to be wise were thinking of going somewhere they had never been before (like Turkey or somewhere) they would google it and believe just about anything. But who has believed our witness? You?

 

[paulm50]

You're missing the point. If you believe in God then you can ask Him in prayer, but as I explained He will give you an answere just not in the way you want it or when you want it,

So I pray, he doesn't give me the answer then. He gives it in a way I don't want it, or when I want it. So how do I know he answered?

God is in control and He will show you that until your humble enough to accept it and turn to Him for everything. One thing you should not do is stray from His word which is the Bible because He teaches through it. If you seek true wisdom you should be wise and keep Gods word at all times.

So god is in control, so responsible for all the deaths in his name.

But I will not stray from the word of god, as soon as someone proves it is his word and not the word of people killing in his name.

SCIENCE IS GREAT, it's just extremely limited: If a group of people were all born into a large room and no one had been or seen outside the room, who would actually know what was outside? It's the same with people of the world. The answer is, no one could possibly know ANYTHING intelligent about the outside (about the bigger picture, about the bigger questions of life and the universe)...unless...it came into them from the outside. Yes, the scientist could tell you many things about what is inside, a teacher could teach it, and we could all have our opinions and even vote about it. But it would all be speculation, BS. There IS information coming in from outside, and there have been witnesses to it all throughout history...but you're not listening. You got your fingers in your ears. Meanwhile, you go on with your noses pressed inward making claims of superior knowledge. You know SO LITTLE! And the irony is, that if the same ones professing to be wise were thinking of going somewhere they had never been before (like Turkey or somewhere) they would google it and believe just about anything. But who has believed our witness? You?

Science is becoming less limited by the day. The science of 1,000 BC was more like being in a shoe box than a room. Today tat room is a huge stadium that's getting bigger by the day. so why should we go back to only what people knew in 1,000 BC that today there's so much visual proof it's wrong?

"witnesses to it all throughout history...but you're not listening. You got your fingers in your ears. Meanwhile, you go on with your noses pressed inward making claims of superior knowledge. You know SO LITTLE! "

I assume you're talking about people who believe in the bible word word.

Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself on it.

 

[paulm50]

The god of the bible that so many believe in, doesn't exist or if he does he's a cruel god. and the proof is in the bible.

If god created the world, is perfect all knowing etc. He's responsible for everything. For putting a tree that shouldn't be picked from in the garden. Then placing a serpent in the tree to tempt Eve. Who he made to open to temptation. So did the do what he wanted, or was he testing her not knowing the outcome?

Clearer proof is the Cain and Abel story. He looked on Abel gift as better than Cain's. Any Father will tell you that's a mistake. This enraged Cain, rage was something god put in us, and led to the killing of his brother. Has to be god's fault.

Whatever people were doing in Sodom and Gomorrah and prior to the flood, had to be pleasurable or they wouldn't do it. That pleasure was something in the bodies god created. If he hadn't of created sodomy, or what ever, as pleasurable, no one would do it.

And the faults in god go one, Exodus, Moses, Joshua, Jericho, David, Salomon, the need for Jesus to return to put us back on the right path. the need for him to come back. All are the creation of the creator, a god who isn't so perfect, or Nature that makes no such claim.

No one needs to test something they made perfectly. Most certainly not a perfect creator.

 

[Chriliman]

What do you mean by "and keep Gods word at all times."

How many Gods are there? What is or are "Gods word"? It looks like there is only one of them.

Sorry I forgot the apostrophe. I meant keep God's word, meaning a man who feels guilt or conviction or who just had questions should always go to the Bible and body of Christ (fellow believers) for counsel. When they do this they should open their hearts and minds to the workings of the Holy Spirit. This will convict them of there sins and they will confess and be given peace to continue in there faith and strength to persevere in future trials. This process of feeling lead to read the Bible or talk w fellow believers and being taught something through the Holy Spirit was designed by God in order to teach His Truth.

 

[Chriliman]

The god of the bible that so many believe in, doesn't exist or if he does he's a cruel god. and the proof is in the bible.

If god created the world, is perfect all knowing etc. He's responsible for everything. For putting a tree that shouldn't be picked from in the garden. Then placing a serpent in the tree to tempt Eve. Who he made to open to temptation. So did the do what he wanted, or was he testing her not knowing the outcome?

Clearer proof is the Cain and Abel story. He looked on Abel gift as better than Cain's. Any Father will tell you that's a mistake. This enraged Cain, rage was something god put in us, and led to the killing of his brother. Has to be god's fault.

Whatever people were doing in Sodom and Gomorrah and prior to the flood, had to be pleasurable or they wouldn't do it. That pleasure was something in the bodies god created. If he hadn't of created sodomy, or what ever, as pleasurable, no one would do it.

And the faults in god go one, Exodus, Moses, Joshua, Jericho, David, Salomon, the need for Jesus to return to put us back on the right path. the need for him to come back. All are the creation of the creator, a god who isn't so perfect, or Nature that makes no such claim.

No one needs to test something they made perfectly. Most certainly not a perfect creator.

I have a few questions for you:

Do you believe there is one God who created this universe?

Do you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

Do you believe satan and evil are real?

If you believe there is one God who created this universe and you believe evil is real, then how could it be possible for evil and God to exist simultaneously. This is a common question and the simple answer is that God allows evil in order to teach His Truth. God did not create evil. Beings God created that have free will (free will meaning they are free to not choose God's will) chose evil. Since these beings have free will they are immediately separate from God because only God can be God, nothing else can be God. So it was a free willed being (satan) who was completely separate from God that chose evil and effectively causing all the problems in this world. It is true that all of this is in God's perfect will and it's His perfect will that has destroyed evil and death itself, we just haven't realized yet how this is possible simply because from our subjective perspective it hasn't happened yet, but from God's perspective it has happened, but He's also still making it happen, you have to think of God as timeless, but also in time to understand. You also have to have the Holy Spirit to truly understand anything in the Bible. The Bible has all the answers which are revealed through the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10
"These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God."

Ephesians 1:17
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,"

 

[Dave RP]

You need to keep in mind that most of the translation work from ancient Hebrew into English was done during the 14th and 15th centuries.
Trying to argue modern science does not work mostly because the translation work was done before modern science.
The bible does actually refer to the earth as a sphere but that did not make sense in the 14th century so it was translated as circular to make sense to the translators.
Just as the points of light in the night sky were translated as stars even though we now know there are many objects in the night sky besides stars.

But many people in the 14th and 15th centuries knew the earth was a sphere, especially anyone near the sea. The could see that ships disappeared gradually over the horizon and also knew that the earths shadow on the moon showed the earth as spherical.

 

[Dave RP]

If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

God Bless!

In the same way that any creation myth is true, it is true in the heads of those that believe, but not in any other way.

 

[paulm50]

I have a few questions for you:

If you believe there is one God who created this universe and you believe evil is real, then how could it be possible for evil and God to exist simultaneously. This is a common question and the simple answer is that God allows evil in order to teach His Truth. God did not create evil. Beings God created that have free will (free will meaning they are free to not choose God's will) chose evil. Since these beings have free will they are immediately separate from God because only God can be God, nothing else can be God. So it was a free willed being (satan) who was completely separate from God that chose evil and effectively causing all the problems in this world. It is true that all of this is in God's perfect will and it's His perfect will that has destroyed evil and death itself, we just haven't realized yet how this is possible simply because from our subjective perspective it hasn't happened yet, but from God's perspective it has happened, but He's also still making it happen, you have to think of God as timeless, but also in time to understand. You also have to have the Holy Spirit to truly understand anything in the Bible. The Bible has all the answers which are revealed through the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10
"These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God."

Ephesians 1:17
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,"

Do you believe there is one God who created this universe? I don't know what came before the Universe. This link might help.

Do you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? No, he would of achieved more if he had got off the cross, told Pilot he's a god and can't be killed. Then gone to Rome and started converting them there. Why he never went to Rome, where the real power of the day was, is the mystery. By doing so he would of achieved his goal, and saved billions of lives.

Do you believe satan and evil are real? No. I believe men were created with evil inside them. And therefore accept their god when he does evil things.

This is a common question and the simple answer is that God allows evil in order to teach His Truth. God did not create evil. your god created us, therefore he created the evil in us. He also has created evil. The Tree of Knowledge, serpent, Eve unable to resist temptation, looking on Abel gift more favourable than Cain's. What ever they were doing in Sodom and Gomorrah was pleasurable, a pleasure created by god within us. The Ark of the Covenant. Do you want me to go on with more?

There are many more examples of Man and Nature being evil or making bad things happen. Then the priests tell the people it was their fault for not doing what the priests (god) tell them. The things priests have told people what god wants, usually ends up with the priests better off. The best lesson in the bible is Jesus casting out the money lenders. He saw the corruption that had taken over the church, that has carried on till today.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So beware of what a person who may look good, says.

 

[pshun2404]

No, the Bible never refers to the Earth as a sphere. It does refer to the Earth as a flat disc. Most of those that make the "Bible says the Earth is spherical" claim make a basic geometry fail.

Chug (translated "circle") can also mean sphere or round...see Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon....

Christopher Columbus, at odds with the Hierarchical Roman Church, read in Isaiah 40 about the alleged “Khug“, or roundness of the Earth (the King James interprets this word as “circle“), he never hesitated to venture off with the same fullness of faith, that later inspired Newton. He did not for one minute doubt the world was round because it was the word of the very God who made the world. The diaries, or journals, of Christopher Columbus, which we now have, actually testify that he personally never saw his journey as holding the danger of falling off the edge of some Aristotlian flatworld! Columbus was entirely convinced from Scripture, that the Holy Spirit had assured him that the world was round (just as many before him believed).

Paul

 

[paulm50]

How we Homo Sapiens got to this point is so clearly mapped, that even with a few missing pieces of the jigsaw, the picture is clear. Then there are all the other Hominids who came before us and now extinct. Neanderthals walked the Earth at the time of many bible stories, maybe even up to the time of Farmers (Cain and Abel). Most certainly at the time of the Flood.

The people of the Middle East had no clue of them, neither did they know about penguins, Pandas, kangaroos, and the millions of species in the world. So what effected their little corner of the planet was the whole world.

Plagues in Egypt still happen, are they Acts of god or just nature? 1440 bc everything unexplained was an act of god. And as we find more and more evidence of nature, evolution, some still refuse to use the brain they were given and go back to the comfort of what Bronze Age Man knew. Well a few of them, the rest did as they were told.