If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[paulm50]

No, you have missed the analogy completely. The point is that science is a very little part of something infinitely bigger. In other words, scientific evidence is finite and doesn't stack up to what is available if you have access to the greater amount of infinite information that exists outside of the realm of science. Let me put it this way: If you yourself stay inside/indoors your whole life, what could you possible know about what is outside? You are the one in the bubble. It's finite, and we are infinite. We can see you, and we are waving and shouting trying to get you to look up from your fascination with your indoor, iphone world, but it's going right on by you. And all you can say, is "That's crazy, check out how cool my phone (my closed-circuit finite world) is!"

You'all need to get out more..

You're very confusing.

The bible is finite, if it's written in the bible or not written. It stops there.

Science is infinite it grows every day.

So only confining yourself to the bible is staying indoors, never looking outside at the real world. Your'e the one's saying "That's crazy, check out how cool my bible (my closed-circuit finite world) is!"

You can say black is white, doesn't make it true.

 

[Chriliman]

You cannot expect to interpret the Bible in any meaningful way UNLESS you use your mind and UNLESS you can explain why you do so to others. If you can't explain the biblical interpretation it isn't a real biblical interpretation, its your own ideas.

Right, but you have to look at it from God's perspective. He gave you that mind, but not so you could use your mind to form your own beliefs, but rather so He can communicate His truth to you. If you use your mind to form your own beliefs, it's far to easy to form beliefs that are untrue and against God's will, which is why we MUST rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth, we must not rely on our flesh(brains) for truth.

Romans 8:5-6
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

If you rely on the Spirit for truth, then you will be able to explain and backup everything you believe with scripture. Scripture must back up scripture or else it's being misinterpreted. God's word cannot contradict itself.

 

[Chriliman]

Can or did?

Examples please.

The only way for something to be considered impossible, is if it's not in God's will and who are we to understand God's will without God allowing us to understand. Ask God for understanding and wisdom and He will lead you to it, but the journey to true wisdom from God isn't easy, simply because evil will do anything to try and stop you.

If you believe their is an absolute truth about life, then when that absolute truth is revealed it will make complete sense to you, but if you don't believe their is an absolute truth about life then, if and when that absolute truth is revealed you will at that moment realize that withholding belief in absolute truth was actually the ultimate deception, just hope you're still alive when you realize the absolute truth. Because if you die you will no longer have the choice to believe in anything, you'll be forced to accept the truth that you didn't believe or the truth that you did believe. This is would be end time judgement.

Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

So we all know what the purpose is for the book of life, but what do you think the purpose is for those other books?

 

[paulm50]

Right, but you have to look at it from God's perspective. He gave you that mind, but not so you could use your mind to form your own beliefs, but rather so He can communicate His truth to you. If you use your mind to form your own beliefs, it's far to easy to form beliefs that are untrue and against God's will, which is why we MUST rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth, we must not rely on our flesh(brains) for truth.

Then he got it wrong. My dog does as I want him to, his brain isn't nearly as sophisticated as ours.

So are you wrong or god?

Romans 8:5-6
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

From the book that doesn't want us to think about it. This part is from a man who changed what Christ said.

If you rely on the Spirit for truth, then you will be able to explain and backup everything you believe with scripture. Scripture must back up scripture or else it's being misinterpreted. God's word cannot contradict itself.

You mean not think things through, without the bible telling us what to think, and still be swinging in the trees.

If our most powerful tool is our brain, and it is. If you believe in god. He gave it to you to use fully. Not as a way for others to control your thought process.

The bible is full of contradictions.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You need to keep in mind that most of the translation work from ancient Hebrew into English was done during the 14th and 15th centuries.
Trying to argue modern science does not work mostly because the translation work was done before modern science.
The bible does actually refer to the earth as a sphere but that did not make sense in the 14th century so it was translated as circular to make sense to the translators.
Just as the points of light in the night sky were translated as stars even though we now know there are many objects in the night sky besides stars.

Well actually the knowledge that the earth was a sphere was already circulating then. Its just that the heavens were envisioned as Aristotle's series of crystal spheres surrounding the earth, and the earth was not conceived of as rotating; rather the sun and stars were seen as rotating around the stationary earth, stuck on these vast crystalline spheres.

 

[paulm50]

You said "We serve a God who can achieve the impossible."

So I ask if he can, or did and for examples. You then quote from the bible. If that's always going to be your evidence. You're not using the brain you were given.

And today someone like John would be considered a lunatic and in an asylum. How many of his predictions have come true? Jesus predictions never came true, so I doubt if John had a better insight.

So tell me about the impossible things that god has achieved that have some sense to them.

 

[Chriliman]

You said "We serve a God who can achieve the impossible."

So I ask if he can, or did and for examples. You then quote from the bible. If that's always going to be your evidence. You're not using the brain you were given.

And today someone like John would be considered a lunatic and in an asylum. How many of his predictions have come true? Jesus predictions never came true, so I doubt if John had a better insight.

So tell me about the impossible things that god has achieved that have some sense to them.

If you want proof that I use my brain, here it is. If you can figure out what all of this means you will have fully used your brain as well. Let me give you the answer and if you decide to figure out why this answer is true then good for you. The answer is that the fundamental PURPOSE of our consciousness is to exist and the fundamental FUNCTION of our consciousness is to believe. Belief is the most powerful function of our minds, but that power only comes from the absolute truth, but this requires belief in the absolute truth to realize that power.

 

[Chriliman]

Then he got it wrong. My dog does as I want him to, his brain isn't nearly as sophisticated as ours.

So are you wrong or god?


From the book that doesn't want us to think about it. This part is from a man who changed what Christ said.


You mean not think things through, without the bible telling us what to think, and still be swinging in the trees.

If our most powerful tool is our brain, and it is. If you believe in god. He gave it to you to use fully. Not as a way for others to control your thought process.

The bible is full of contradictions.

Your dog didn't train himself did he? No, you trained him because your dog is incapable of training himself because it requires a mind with greater understanding to train him. What's the key training? Discipline and reward, right. So if we think of God in this way, God doesn't want to discipline us, but if He doesn't we'll never learn to love his teachings and we'll never receive the ultimate reward. Evil is NOT God's purpose, but He ALLOWS it in order to teach us His truth. If it wasn't for evil we'd all be living happily with God. God can't duplicate himself because he's infinite, so he created beings in His image. What happens when we humans try to duplicate something over and over? Imperfections slowly creep in. The difference is we can't stop those imperfections, God can and has destroyed evil, whether you believe it or not, it's done! I strongly suggest you start believing in Jesus Christ who has made it possible for evil to be destroyed. This is the absolute truth that will always be my answer, so if you want to stop talking to me, that's your choice.

 

[HitchSlap]

Your dog didn't train himself did he? No, you trained him because your dog is incapable of training himself because it requires a mind with greater understanding to train him. What's the key training? Discipline and reward, right. So if we think of God in this way, God doesn't want to discipline us, but if He doesn't we'll never learn to love his teachings and we'll never receive the ultimate reward. Evil is NOT God's purpose, but He ALLOWS it in order to teach us His truth. If it wasn't for evil we'd all be living happily with God. God can't duplicate himself because he's infinite, so he created beings in His image. What happens when we humans try to duplicate something over and over? Imperfections slowly creep in. The difference is we can't stop those imperfections, God can and has destroyed evil, whether you believe it or not, it's done! I strongly suggest you start believing in Jesus Christ who has made it possible for evil to be destroyed. This is the absolute truth that will always be my answer, so if you want to stop talking to me, that's your choice.

Believe in a man that never existed? That's odd advice.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Believe in a man that never existed? That's odd advice.

Believe in a man that never existed? That's odd advice.

Adam in the Bible was a real person. If you were alive back then you could have gone to see him to verify for yourself. Outside of the Bible I am sure they embellished a lot. Moses was dependable in his account though. Just as he was dependable to tell the story about Noah.

 

[paulm50]

If you want proof that I use my brain, here it is. If you can figure out what all of this means you will have fully used your brain as well. Let me give you the answer and if you decide to figure out why this answer is true then good for you. The answer is that the fundamental PURPOSE of our consciousness is to exist and the fundamental FUNCTION of our consciousness is to believe. Belief is the most powerful function of our minds, but that power only comes from the absolute truth, but this requires belief in the absolute truth to realize that power.

If you want proof here it is.

Natural history museum exhibits. A little more than a made up image and an old book, that's not really that old.

 

[paulm50]

Your dog didn't train himself did he? No, you trained him because your dog is incapable of training himself because it requires a mind with greater understanding to train him. What's the key training? Discipline and reward, right. So if we think of God in this way, God doesn't want to discipline us, but if He doesn't we'll never learn to love his teachings and we'll never receive the ultimate reward. Evil is NOT God's purpose, but He ALLOWS it in order to teach us His truth. If it wasn't for evil we'd all be living happily with God. God can't duplicate himself because he's infinite, so he created beings in His image. What happens when we humans try to duplicate something over and over? Imperfections slowly creep in. The difference is we can't stop those imperfections, God can and has destroyed evil, whether you believe it or not, it's done! I strongly suggest you start believing in Jesus Christ who has made it possible for evil to be destroyed. This is the absolute truth that will always be my answer, so if you want to stop talking to me, that's your choice.

So god as a trainer has failed. He doesn't want to discipline ius, but according to many bibles passages he will.

If evil isn't gods purpose, why put a tree in a garden with a snake and expect us not to eat from it. He's either not a very good creator, or a bad trainer. Were the imperfections there from the offset.

If god didn't want Cain to kill Abel, why did he look on Abel's gift more favourably? He also created us with rage and envy.

No god clearly can't stop imperfections, he created us with them, and as for stopping evil. He and Jesus failed at that.

Your version of the truth, isn't very true. I used your word to show how he and jesus have failed.

If you want to keep throwing these failures at me, go ahead.

Adam in the Bible was a real person. If you were alive back then you could have gone to see him to verify for yourself. Outside of the Bible I am sure they embellished a lot. Moses was dependable in his account though. Just as he was dependable to tell the story about Noah.

The people who wrote the bible weren't there to verify it. Moses wasn't there either and he didn't write it down. Agreed, the story is as dependable as Noah and the Ark. As it the story of exodus.

 

[Chriliman]

If you want proof here it is.

Natural history museum exhibits. A little more than a made up image and an old book, that's not really that old.

If you're trying to insinuate that I don't believe dinosaurs roamed the earth, then I can clear that up right now. I do believe dinosaurs roamed the earth because there's clear evidence for them. However, just like your dog isn't an essential part of your marriage with your spouse (assuming your married). Dinosaurs are not an essential part of God's plan for redemption for us humans. God loves humans, who he gave the ability to think for ourselves. Even if we "evolved" from lesser beings, those beings were not human, like we are. Do I believe God has a purpose for everything he has created? Yes, of course, but is it up to me to know what the purpose is for everything he has created? No.

Thankfully, all I have to worry about is His purpose for me, and how I can further His kingdom by loving Him and loving others.

 

[HitchSlap]

Adam in the Bible was a real person. If you were alive back then you could have gone to see him to verify for yourself. Outside of the Bible I am sure they embellished a lot. Moses was dependable in his account though. Just as he was dependable to tell the story about Noah.

Nope. Adam never existed, nor did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses; and current scholarship is beginning to admit there is no evidence for the existence of a Jesus as described in the NT.

 

[paulm50]

If you're trying to insinuate that I don't believe dinosaurs roamed the earth, then I can clear that up right now. I do believe dinosaurs roamed the earth because there's clear evidence for them. However, just like your dog isn't an essential part of your marriage with your spouse (assuming your married). Dinosaurs are not an essential part of God's plan for redemption for us humans. God loves humans, who he gave the ability to think for ourselves. Even if we "evolved" from lesser beings, those beings were not human, like we are. Do I believe God has a purpose for everything he has created? Yes, of course, but is it up to me to know what the purpose is for everything he has created? No.

Thankfully, all I have to worry about is His purpose for me, and how I can further His kingdom by loving Him and loving others.

As dinosaurs existed. Genesis is wrong. So god never told the true story about how the Earth evolved.

All we can do, is ask if there is a god. Based on the evidence around us, what is he like?

Nope. Adam never existed, nor did Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses; and current scholarship is beginning to admit there is no evidence for the existence of a Jesus as described in the NT.

The evidence for these people isn't outside the bible. The evidence the Jews existed is. It proves of the different nations around them they were very backward. We can see ruins that were here at the same time and evidence of powerful tribes who pre-date them

The present thinking is they were little more than goat and sheep herders. The city of David is Saul is yet to be found, there's scant evidence of their existence. As the chosen people, they were insignificant and unable to protect their homeland well until the mid 20th Century.

Chosen people or a tribe with an over inflated opinion of itself?

There is some proof in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus.

History is written by thw winners.

The Roman dogma vs history

The history of Jesus and the history of Christianity that we know today is the dogma that the Roman empire forced on all its provinces. When Constantine converted to Christianity, Rome became the center of power also for Christianity and any challenging center was wiped out. What Jesus really said and meant will probably never be known.A new wave of "Historical Jesus" research has emerged in the wake of the discovery in 1947 in Egypt of the ancient manuscripts that are known today as the "Nag Hammadi library" and as "Gnostic Gospels", and of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. Until then, little was known about the early Christians known as the Gnostics. "We've listened to the winners, and their story doesn't make any sense. So let's listen to the losers and see if their story makes more sense" (Freke).

The OT is the bible of the Jewish losers, NT the bible of the European winners. And for over 1,000 years the RC church had a stranglehold on it. Burning people who wanted it read by commoners.

 

[HitchSlap]

There is some proof in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus.

And there's good reason to believe that both Josephus and Tacitus references to Jesus were much later inserted to these manuscripts. I've heard the Josephus reference explained as a commercial - as in, you're watching a re-run of the X-Files, and a Hillary Clinton commercial comes on during the ad break.

 

[Chriliman]

As dinosaurs existed. Genesis is wrong. So god never told the true story about how the Earth evolved.

All we can do, is ask if there is a god. Based on the evidence around us, what is he like?

As soon as someone explains to me exactly how our universe came from an unknowable singularity, then I'll believe it. Unfortunately, explaining something that is unknowable would actually be impossible, because how could you explain it if it's unknowable?

God has explained Himself very well to me and how He explains His existence can explain how our universe came to be and can also explain the bizarre behavior at the quantum level.

Again, as soon as someone explains an unknowable singularity or how the seemingly impossible behavior of quantum particles is actually possible, I'll continue believing God who has clearly shown me how everything in this universe exists. These are my beliefs.

Even if someone could explain the unknowable singularity, I would still have to believe them, even if they presented evidence, I'd still have to believe the evidence was actually true. I can't be absolutely objective about evidence, simply because I'm subjective, I have to BELIEVE it represents truth. This is actually the problem with science, we think we're reaching absolute objectivity, when in reality this is impossible, unless we could take ourselves out of our brains. Hey I know someone who doesn't even need a brain because His existence is beyond time and space, thank God for His INFINITE wisdom and knowledge.

I hope you can at least see why I believe what I believe, even if you don't agree.

 

[ScottA]

So I pray, he doesn't give me the answer then. He gives it in a way I don't want it, or when I want it. So how do I know he answered?

So god is in control, so responsible for all the deaths in his name.

But I will not stray from the word of god, as soon as someone proves it is his word and not the word of people killing in his name.



Science is becoming less limited by the day. The science of 1,000 BC was more like being in a shoe box than a room. Today tat room is a huge stadium that's getting bigger by the day. so why should we go back to only what people knew in 1,000 BC that today there's so much visual proof it's wrong?

"witnesses to it all throughout history...but you're not listening. You got your fingers in your ears. Meanwhile, you go on with your noses pressed inward making claims of superior knowledge. You know SO LITTLE! "

I assume you're talking about people who believe in the bible word word.

Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself on it.

There is finite knowledge, and there is infinite knowledge. Science is finite and limited. Infinite knowledge is unlimited. Yet people asking the meaning of life questions turn to finite information for the answer. That is like asking a mechanic what lies beyond the next bend. Correction: That is like asking a mechanic about brain surgery. Correction: That is like asking a mechanic about God. It's absurd. Would you go to a doctor to get your car fixed? Would you call a plumber about an electrical problem. Yet...that is exactly what so many do...they believe finite information about infinite subjects. Obviously, it's not a very effective practice.

 

[HitchSlap]

There is finite knowledge, and there is infinite knowledge. Science is finite and limited. Infinite knowledge is unlimited. Yet people asking the meaning of life questions turn to finite information for the answer. That is like asking a mechanic what lies beyond the next bend. Correction: That is like asking a mechanic about brain surgery. Correction: That is like asking a mechanic about God. It's absurd. Would you go to a doctor to get your car fixed? Would you call a plumber about an electrical problem. Yet...that is exactly what so many do...they believe finite information about infinite subjects. Obviously, it's not a very effective practice.

How do you know there is "infinite knowledge?"

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Sorry, links please. For example this site explain why Chuwg refers to a flat disc and not a circle by usage of that word and "Dur" or ball. He also points to other verses that only make sense if they believed the Earth to be flat:

Much is made of Isaiah 40:42 where it is asserted that Isaiah told us all that the earth is a sphere. But is this what was really meant by the word the translator's usually present to us as "circle"?

The Hebrew word in Strong's transliteration is "chug". Here are all the verses in which the Hebrew word "chug" appears, included one use of "chug" as a verb:


Isa 40:22
It is He who sits above the [chug] of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
NKJV

Job 22:14
4 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the [chug] of heaven.
KJV

Prov 8:27-29
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a [chug] upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


Job 26:10-11
He hath [chugged] the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

There are some things we can notice about these verses. What is the common meaning between these verses? I submit that it is quite clear the word does not means "sphere". It is also clear the word always is used in the context of the big picture of the earth and even more.

The talmudic writers leave no doubt that their literalistic interpretation of the firmament of Genesis One was simply that of the great bowl of the sky, placed as a dome over the flat earth. You may research this for yourself by searching for "talmud" and "firmament" over the internet; here is a good link you might find that way.

http://www.daatemet.org.il/pamphlets/en_pamphlet4.html

It is quite plain that the word "chug", then, can easily be understood as a reference to the Firmament; it can easily be considered as an alternate word for the same idea. Proverbs 8:27 almost cries out to interpret the word [chug] in that way.

It is also quite plain that this word is no proof that the earth itself is shown by Isaiah to be a sphere.