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If selection pressure waned and waxed, such that the species started again: what'd you do better?

Shemjaza

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This is where I have to take you to task (God help me):

Believers keep the words of Jesus. If what you are saying is true: certain words would be appropriate to one species and (depending on the selection pressures and how each responds to them) other words would be appropriate to the other (species). Say for example that one of the selection pressures was response to the wind and another selection pressure was response to the sun - if Jesus spoke about the wind in one case (which He did) and spoke about the Sun in another case (which He did): would one species remember what was said about the wind and another remember what was said about the Sun?

Let's just establish that, for the time being - I don't want to make it more complicated than it needs to be... (suffice it to say, I do not merely mean "remembering words, is all Creationists think survival takes")
All of that is completely irrelevant to evolution and selection pressures.

Words aren't selection pressures.

The evolution of species has nothing to do with beliefs or choices of individuals, it's about genetic variation across the whole population over multiple generations.

What gets me, is that there are lions and tigers and hyenas in Evolution, but Evolution is not "lead", by anything (not lead by lions, not leads by tigers, not lead by a pack of hyenas working together) - just a random story of pressure, such that "everything is asked, but not everything is done"?

Evolution is a physical process that occurs to species based on statistical success of traits over generations.

It isn't led by anything.

I've come to realise, part of the problem with my asking for accountability in "Evolution" - as pertains to the choice it gives you - is that the "choice" "hurts".

People say "the truth hurts" like it's nothing, but actually the choice hurts.

I'm not sure what you want to make of that, but if the choice remains the same choice, at least we might be able to reconcile ourselves to it, in the end?

Evolution isn't a result of choice.
 
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Gottservant

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All of that is completely irrelevant to evolution and selection pressures.

Words aren't selection pressures.

If the population requires that you remember those words, those words have selective power. That was at least part of my point, the same population has a choice of which words to emphasize or remember. My whole question of Evolution has to begin with been "what does Evolution encourage you to emphasize or remember?".

The evolution of species has nothing to do with beliefs or choices of individuals, it's about genetic variation across the whole population over multiple generations.

A whole population of believers is a whole population.

Evolution is a physical process that occurs to species based on statistical success of traits over generations.

It isn't led by anything.

Evolution isn't a result of choice.

If it is anything verifiable, it is either led or able to choose - that's your choice! I would rather it be led, but I know that it can't be (not by the individual; not without repeating WWII).

I am trying to help you: Jesus has real and relevant words for life, not just on Earth but in Heaven to come. You cannot believe some and ignore others, they are all wise. The point of wisdom, is that it saves you from something you otherwise would not have avoided. In other words, the words of Jesus save your Evolution, from something you would otherwise would have thought was normal (for Evolution, or more).

I'm not going to jump in the water with you, because you are drowning - you honestly need to grasp the words I am telling you are life.

In your terms, the words of Jesus give you the capacity to compare one "Evolution" with another ("Evolution"), because how evolved they may be, depends on context, more than intent. Without these words, you will simply conflate context with intent, which is sin (in every circumstance where doing so, separates you from God).
 
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Gottservant

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If Evolution is conflating context with intent, the expectation is that difference will either play its own way or will be self-defeatist; playing its own way or self-defeatist, is a crime punishable with protracted silence - for all that it would have kept meaning.

In other words, your Evolution is as powerless, as you not knowing what your words are for.

But I'm not consigning you to that, I am saying "the words of Jesus, will help you develop a sense of what your words are for" - an adaptation without mutation, that has tremendous polyvalent reinterprability (the kind that can stabilize other words you believe in).

If you don't incorporate the words of Jesus into what you evolve, you will die! And so will your evolution!!
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Who said you could pick and choose, what I believe is associated with Evolution? On what foundation?

That you remember biology? or trust Evolution?

What choice does your foundation give me??

EDIT: I base my interpretation of life on the blood of Jesus and the word of my testimony! (both of which you are free to have, with me)

There is no foundation for evolution because evolution is not a religion!! Why are you not understanding this simple idea?
 
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Shemjaza

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If the population requires that you remember those words, those words have selective power. That was at least part of my point, the same population has a choice of which words to emphasize or remember. My whole question of Evolution has to begin with been "what does Evolution encourage you to emphasize or remember?".

Your question is not in any way relevant to the process of evolution.

The beliefs of the population are not relevant, only if they are genetically isolated from the rest of their species on a time scale that could allow evolution.

A whole population of believers is a whole population.

But not an isolated population that could be relevant to evolution.

If it is anything verifiable, it is either led or able to choose - that's your choice! I would rather it be led, but I know that it can't be (not by the individual; not without repeating WWII).

This doesn't make sense.

Please explain why and how physical processes that occur to groups of living things over many, many generations are either led or able to choose?

I am trying to help you: Jesus has real and relevant words for life, not just on Earth but in Heaven to come. You cannot believe some and ignore others, they are all wise. The point of wisdom, is that it saves you from something you otherwise would not have avoided. In other words, the words of Jesus save your Evolution, from something you would otherwise would have thought was normal (for Evolution, or more).

I don't have "an evolution" neither do you, neither does anyone. It's a process that occurs on the species level, not a possession of an individual.

Whether or not I need salvation from Jesus is also totally irrelevant to the evolution of species or the history of evolution.

I'm not going to jump in the water with you, because you are drowning - you honestly need to grasp the words I am telling you are life.

In your terms, the words of Jesus give you the capacity to compare one "Evolution" with another ("Evolution"), because how evolved they may be, depends on context, more than intent. Without these words, you will simply conflate context with intent, which is sin (in every circumstance where doing so, separates you from God).

Evolution is not connected to an individuals beliefs, intent or salvation.
 
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Shemjaza

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For context, this is Gottservant's Meme:

GottServantMeme.jpg


You always criticize me for attempting to link agency with evolution: here's a meme, that shows exactly what that flaw is (and its not something I say!)

Image

Your meme demonstrates the issue perfectly. Air does not choose to commit motion, it's a mindless, choice-less consequence of air's properties.

It is literally, nonsense. In that it does not make sense.

Likewise evolution is not conscious and is not a choice by an individual.
 
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Gottservant

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For context, this is Gottservant's Meme:

View attachment 306047



Your meme demonstrates the issue perfectly. Air does not choose to commit motion, it's a mindless, choice-less consequence of air's properties.

It is literally, nonsense. In that it does not make sense.

Likewise evolution is not conscious and is not a choice by an individual.

That's what I am saying!

People who confuse context and intent, create memes like this!

Unless you discern whether your agency is responsible or accountable, you will never have justification (to separate agency for and agency against, in principle).

I'm not saying you need to make a radical change, it is doable, you just have to be realistic about how amazing a species can be, before the change you expect of it, forces it to self-destruct.
 
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Shemjaza

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That's what I am saying!

People who confuse context and intent, create memes like this!

You confusion about how evolution works seems identical to the deliberate nonsensical nature of the meme.

Unless you discern whether your agency is responsible or accountable, you will never have justification (to separate agency for and agency against, in principle).

I'm not saying you need to make a radical change, it is doable, you just have to be realistic about how amazing a species can be, before the change you expect of it, forces it to self-destruct.
Except that the scale in both time and population of an evolving species makes any awareness, expectation or agency completely irrelevant.
 
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Gottservant

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It comes down to one thing:

"he who is faithful in what is least, is faithful in much" (gospels)

OR

"you cannot make one hair black or white" (gospels)

If you can be faithful you can change your hair? Or if you cannot make a hair different, you cannot have faith?

See the problem you are causing here? Faith that does not accept who you are, is not faith; changing your hair is not a sign you know better where your hair is from - you really have to learn with the fact you didn't know anything in the beginning, and what you decided after the fact, was not in contradiction the species you became (but in addition to it).
 
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Gottservant

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Your meme demonstrates the issue perfectly.

What you have failed to understand, is that I am saying that this meme is correctable?

How would you correct this meme, in Evolutionary terms?

Or you would rather let it be forgotten without being corrected - you see how that attitude confuses what can be called "adaptive" right? As in, if you don't correct it, you are likely to mistake it for truth?

EDIT: The correction is this: this is what happens when you conflate context with intent (agency is not able to inform the interpretation of what you think it means)
 
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Gottservant

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Does what you believe changes your Evolution, change what you do to justify it?

Or if you don't believe your Evolution changes, what do you do to justify not working any differently (on that which justifies your justice)?

Agency needs to be justified, that's why I am asking (if you don't have agency, you still need to justify something to justify that)...

How does the faith justify itself? We do the works of God and remind each other of the words of God we have come to trust (essentially, to the death).
 
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Shemjaza

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What you have failed to understand, is that I am saying that this meme is correctable?

How would you correct this meme, in Evolutionary terms?

Or you would rather let it be forgotten without being corrected - you see how that attitude confuses what can be called "adaptive" right? As in, if you don't correct it, you are likely to mistake it for truth?

EDIT: The correction is this: this is what happens when you conflate context with intent (agency is not able to inform the interpretation of what you think it means)

The meme has mistakes, but it can't be corrected in "Evolutionary terms" because evolution is relevant to populations of creatures over generations, not weird art about the weather.

However, the meme could be corrected to better reflect reality.

GottServantMeme-fixed.jpg


It's still weird, but it doesn't include misunderstandings about how air works.

Likewise, beliefs and messages are not related to adaptation or traits relevant to evolution.

Your suggestions and inferences about what evolution is and how it works are simply wrong.
 
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Shemjaza

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Does what you believe changes your Evolution, change what you do to justify it?

No. It doesn't.

Individuals do not have "an evolution" so this doesn't make sense.

Or if you don't believe your Evolution changes, what do you do to justify not working any differently (on that which justifies your justice)?

Individuals do not have "an evolution" so this doesn't make sense.

I also don't understand what you mean when you describe an individual as having a justice.

Agency needs to be justified, that's why I am asking (if you don't have agency, you still need to justify something to justify that)...

How does the faith justify itself? We do the works of God and remind each other of the words of God we have come to trust (essentially, to the death).

This isn't clear... but it does seem to be relevant to an individuals beliefs and relationships with God, and so it is totally irrelevant to evolution which does not apply to individuals.
 
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Gottservant

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The meme has mistakes, but it can't be corrected in "Evolutionary terms" because evolution is relevant to populations of creatures over generations, not weird art about the weather.

However, the meme could be corrected to better reflect reality.

Yes, it could - and so could the mentality that corrected it, which is my point

It's still weird, but it doesn't include misunderstandings about how air works.

Likewise, beliefs and messages are not related to adaptation or traits relevant to evolution.

Your suggestions and inferences about what evolution is and how it works are simply wrong.

You corrected it, by giving it a context (wind) and an intent (moving).

EDIT: Note that the meme you changed it to, now has utility in connection with serving as a warning about what may be excess "wind" (because you put it in connection with "truth")

Now look at Evolution: what context is their for an ape to wish he was a man? And what intention of man would their be, to incorporate having been an ape, in his being more a man?

Don't just scramble my words, as you are beginning to be aware: even things with independent identities need to be justified or brought into relationship with "justice".
 
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Gottservant

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No. It doesn't.

Individuals do not have "an evolution" so this doesn't make sense.

IT doesn't change what you do to justify, it - great: what is it you do (that has an evident connection with Evolution)?

Individuals do not have "an evolution" so this doesn't make sense.

Individuals have part of a population. If that population has Evolution, an individual has a part of that Evolution. It's just one for one.

I also don't understand what you mean when you describe an individual as having a justice.

An individual is an "agent", an agent is either justified or put in a relationship with justice. You may have to take a gamble, but not with your "agency" or the "justice of it" (on its own).

This isn't clear... but it does seem to be relevant to an individuals beliefs and relationships with God, and so it is totally irrelevant to evolution which does not apply to individuals.

So there is just a mass of stuff that you don't do anything about, because you believe in Evolution?

You are appealing to the "gravity" of the "rarity of believing" (rare when compared with what it applies to or consider what you could have believed instead)?
 
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Shemjaza

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I thought of a simpler way of putting it (browsing a meme): what is it, that makes believing Evolution a reflex?

Essentially, what do you most trust, won't change?
Accepting evolution is some mix of accepting the evidence and trusting the source of the analysis.
 
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Gottservant

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The whole point of this thread is the scientific repetition, of what you call "Evolution" - that is, one would assume in a laboratory setting.

I am not trying to prove that the laboratory will evolve, if I am using the laboratory in a way that can already be used to find what it was that it was built for.

Can't you understand the utility of not believing "Evolution" in every circumstance, where a simpler concept could function more effectively uninterfered with?
 
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