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Featured If Jesus is God, why did he forsake himself?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by compassion 4 humanity, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. compassion 4 humanity

    compassion 4 humanity Active Member

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    I was talking religion with a friend of mine who isn't a Christian. We got on the subject of Jesus and God being the same personage. He mentioned Jesus dying on the cross while crying out, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" (The verse he was referring to is Matthew 27:46). Then he asked me: if Jesus is God, why did he forsake himself?

    Basically, he was implying that Jesus can't be God because he thinks this verse suggests otherwise. I'm usually a good apologist, but I wasn't really sure how to reply. How would you respond to him?
     
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  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    two things come to mind 1. where they are the same they are also different. Genesis is a good example of this where it says, let us make man in our image....the way I look at it is that God is too big to be limited even to our understanding of oneness which is why the trinity is so hard for people to grasp. 2. we often forsake ourselves. Every time we sin for example or eat junk food or do anything reckless we are forsaking ourselves to indulge in that activity. Even every broken promise. It is perfectly logical that God as one would forsake Himself as three in one.
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Are you the same person as your father? Yet you have his name and are of the same essence in the same family.
     
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  4. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God is a Spirit and while Jesus had the Spirit of God he was flesh and blood. The Spirit fled the flesh and blood.
     
  5. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, to show His fulfillment of prophecy. The Father never abandoned the Son, for that would have meant the Trinity was destroyed and that did not happen. The Jews at the time would have recognized very quickly that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, but because of His injuries, He was not able to quote all of Psalm 22.

    Moreover, the person of the Son and the person of the Father (and the person of the Holy Spirit) are not the same person. They are the same being in 3 persons. Being and person are not the same thing.

    The person claiming that Jesus and God [the Father] are the same person does not understand the Trinity, but believes in a unitarian [false] god.
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is just quoting a Psalm to express anguish. He's not making a metaphysical statement.
     
  7. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The enigmatic "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?", that's a quote from Psalm 22. It's a prayer and his enemies understood what it meant. "The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him." (Matt. 27:49). It's a prayer for deliverance.

    Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.

    All my bones are on display;
    people stare and gloat over me.

    They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

    But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
    You are my strength; come quickly to help me. (Psalm 22:16-19)​

    He was also fulfilling prophecy.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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  8. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    God is indescribable. If you give a description of God that our carnal minds can understand...it is a false description. Any attempt to describe God to another....causes one to shape and mold a God in the image of your words.....and it likened to the golden calf created by Arron.

    When you experience God.....see Him face to face....you realize that He cant be explained.....only known. So why not lead others to Know God, instead of creating a picture of Him, which could hinder ones desire to know from themselves?
     
  9. Matthew 24 10

    Matthew 24 10 Member

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    Because he was in your place so God could bruise him and pour his wrath on him so he does not have to pour his wrath on you if you accept your replacement .
     
  10. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is God, but He's not the same PERSON as the Father, ... or the Holy Spirit.

    You can think of Jesus as being in the God family ...
     
  11. Matthew 24 10

    Matthew 24 10 Member

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    John 3:13
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    How can Jesus say it about himself that he is in heaven while talking to people on earth ?

    also

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    That child born in Bethlehem was Everlasting Father too looks like .
     
  12. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    This what theologians call the Covenant of Redemption. This is the plan of salvation that took place from eternity past between the God-head (Father, Son, Spirit). The extra-short-short version is that the Father would send the Son to die for the sins of His people, and the Son would be willing to do so. Titus 1:1-3, Hebrews 10:5-7; Philippians 2:5-11; Ephesians 5:1-2
    This death for sin necessitated the Son to satisfy the Justice of God in order for believers to be rescued from the punishment for their sin, and to give them a holy standing in the court of Heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24
     
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ... or He represented Him ...

    John 6

    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    John 8

    28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.
     
  14. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Orthodox doctrine says Jesus was fully God and fully man. Maybe your friend is leaving out the "fully man" part of the doctrine?
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    My response would be, you do well, if you believe what the Bible tells and remain in truth. No need to twist what the Bible tells. :)
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    deleted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    It appears that Jesus died spiritually while alive upon the Cross. God the Father within Him (John 14:7-11) was a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and the Spirit of Jesus. It appears that immediately before Jesus said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me." Jesus' Spirit left His body while His soul remained within His body, that is, if Oneness doctrine is true and also if He said, "Into thy hands I commend my Spirit" BEFORE saying, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If He said the latter before the former, then God the Father forsook Him before He commended His Spirit (the third Person of the Trinity), to the Father in heaven outside of time and Omnipresent, also a Spirit (see John 4:23-24 and Ephesians 4:4). He may have also had a human spirit that was one with the Father up to the point of spiritual death.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    One God in Three Persons... not "one God in one Person"

    One God -- Deut 6:5
    Three Persons - Matthew 28:19

    John 14:28 "28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
     
  19. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    In my reflections of Christ's Passion on the cross. God the Son chose to empty Himself to become man. As man He chose to empty Himself of life. The experience of death is the final end of Christ's kenosis. He does feel separated from God. He say's twice " My God My God" He addresses the Father and the Holy Spirit. His cry is genuine but it is not despair. He attaches His experience of final kenosis to the Psalm as a sign of hope for those at the foot of the cross who are witnessing His death. Christ's experience of complete loss allows disembodied souls that exist in a state of abandonment to unite to Him since His soul bares their likeness of abandonment. In other words the experience of abandonment allowed Jesus' soul to reach the deepest recesses of Hades.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Oneness Pentecostals would say that Matthew 28:19 is referring to a singular God with a singular name but three differen titles. In John 14:28 the human aspect of Jesus would be saying that His Divine nature is greater than His human flesh.
     
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