If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

[BBAS 64]

How do you understand the word "world" in "for God did so love the world"?

Good Day. Peter

Great question in the context:

Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

To answer the question we have to the OT example of Moses and the serpent (numbers 21:8) as it is a comparison of the lifting up of Christ.

I do not deny that God loves all of His creation, it is an extension of God's love that this rebellious world continues. God has a purpose it allowing it to continue and He loves His purposes above all things.
I even believe that God in a sense loves all people, as it rains on the just and the unjust. Here is the rub God does love the just and the unjust, just not in the same way for the same purposes.

I have the ability and the freedom to love my wife different that my mother, or daughter, or grand daughter. I love my Son in a different way than I love my cousin or my nephew or someone elses son.

Do you follow?

In Him,

Bill

 

[BobRyan]

Free will? Hmm


Well, you brought up Romans (even though your context was wrong). Let’s see if Paul addresses that.

I think I just did that...

2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

2 Cor 5, Romans 10 .. that's where we were looking at what Paul said.


So also in Romans 6


Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:16-18

does not say "when God zaps you into being his slave" it says "when YOU present YOURSELF as slaves for obedience".

The point remains.

So then in Romans 6 Paul argues against disobedience -- not as sending a message to God asking God to stop having his slaves rebel against the Word of God -- but rather a letter to the person the reader - telling them not to go on presenting themselves as slave of sin.

So then the Arminian point.

 

[Hammster]

I think I just did that...



2 Cor 5, Romans 10 .. that's where we were looking at what Paul said.


So also in Romans 6


Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:16-18

does not say "when God zaps you into being his slave" it says "when YOU present YOURSELF as slaves for obedience".

The point remains.

So then in Romans 6 Paul argues against disobedience -- not as sending a message to God asking God to stop having his slaves rebel against the Word of God -- but rather a letter to the person the reader - telling them not to go on presenting themselves as slave of sin.

So then the Arminian point.

Do you know what a slave is?

 

[zoidar]

Good Day. Peter

Great question in the context:

Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

To answer the question we have to the OT example of Moses and the serpent (numbers 21:8) as it is a comparison of the lifting up of Christ.

I do not deny that God loves all of His creation, it is an extension of God's love that this rebellious world continues. God has a purpose it allowing it to continue and He loves His purposes above all things.
I even believe that God in a sense loves all people, as it rains on the just and the unjust. Here is the rub God does love the just and the unjust, just not in the same way for the same purposes.

I have the ability and the freedom to love my wife different that my mother, or daughter, or grand daughter. I love my Son in a different way than I love my cousin or my nephew or someone elses son.

Do you follow?

In Him,

Bill

Do I follow, yes and no. Yes, comparison to the bronze serpent. How that would tell the meaning of the word "world" in 3:16, no.

 

[Sam81]

The word of God is clear that God predestined us. It talks about vessels unto honor and dishonor, makes clear that faith comes from God, that one can only come to Christ if drawn by the Father, etc. The only reason people arrive at an arminian perspective is through imposing their own incredulity into the Word and eisegeting out from scripture what isn't taught, in an effort to construct a god that better suits their own view of morality.

 

[BBAS 64]

Do I follow, yes and no. Yes, comparison to the bronze serpent. How that would tell the meaning of the word "world" in 3:16, no.

Good Day, Peter

There are some 12 different ways that the work "world" is used in the NT, for this context I would say # 3 is most fitting.

Thayers gives us the most common:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:47 1Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19

In Him

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Peter

There are some 12 different ways that the work "world" is used in the NT, for this context I would say # 3 is most fitting.

Thayers gives us the most common:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:47 1Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19

In Him

Bill

He gave his Son because he loved the universe (birds, trees, rocks, people) that every one that believes will be saved.

Doesn't really make sense to me. I would go with the understanding "all sinners in the world" (5), since rocks and trees can't believe.

 

[Hammster]

He gave his Son because he loved the universe (birds, trees, rocks, people) that every one that believes will be saved.

Doesn't really make sense to me. I would go with the understanding "all sinners in the world" (5), since rocks and trees can't believe.

Regardless of the meaning, it’s still limited to those who are believing having eternal life.

 

[zoidar]

Regardless of the meaning, it’s still limited to those who are believing having eternal life.

God sent Jesus because he loved every sinner in the world so much, that everyone who believes in him will be saved.

Or:

God loved every chosen sinner in the world so much, that everyone who believes in him will be saved. It's just not working.

 

[Hammster]

God sent Jesus because he loved every sinner in the world so much, that everyone who believes in him will be saved.

But He obviously didn’t love every sinner enough to not send the unbelievers to hell.

Weird understanding of loving everyone.

 

[A_Thinker]

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

Jesus also said that "If He is lifted up from the earth ... He will draw all men to come to Him"

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Christ died for all, but there's not real point in Christ praying for those who will not come to Him.

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didn't die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

He had to buy the field ... to obtain the treasure.

If God died for the entire world then why hasn't the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming.

Scripture says that, after His crucifixion and before His resurrection, He went down into Sheol and preached to the OT souls there, ... eventually leading many of to salvation.

What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

All heard the gospel ... and had the opportunity to establish relationship with Christ. You know, ... like the thief on the cross.

In short, the opportunity for salvation (i.e. atonement with God) ... is to establish relationship with Jesus.

An interesting analogy to the salvation truth is that, once you enter into the afterlife, ... if you want to live with God, He will ask if you are a friend of His Son, Jesus.

All of Jesus' friends are welcome at God's house.

 

[zoidar]

But He obviously didn’t love every sinner enough to not send the unbelievers to hell.

Weird understanding of loving everyone.

We all have to face the question: If God is love why aren't all men saved?

 

[Hammster]

We all have to face the question: If God is love why aren't all men saved?

All men aren’t saved because God only determined to save some, and entered into a covenant with His Son to ensure it would happen. That’s why Jesus says


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

 

[zoidar]

All men aren’t saved because God only determined to save some, and entered into a covenant with His Son to ensure it would happen. That’s why Jesus says


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

But why didn't He choose everyone if He is love?

 

[zoidar]

All men aren’t saved because God only determined to save some, and entered into a covenant with His Son to ensure it would happen. That’s why Jesus says


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

Do you agree to this statement? "Man will be saved because of God. Man will be lost because of man".

 

[BBAS 64]

We all have to face the question: If God is love why aren't all men saved?

Good Day, Peter

You may fond this helpful: https://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/2000_difficult_doctrine_of_the_love_of_God.pdf

 

[bling]

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
— Matthew 25:32-33

We must read carefully what message Jesus is trying to convey and not extend the analogy beyond what Jesus is trying to communicate.

Jesus is not trying to convey the idea: good people are like sheep and bad people are like goats, but the method of separating the saved from those lost at judgement time is like a shepherd separating sheep from goats, which is extremely easy for a shepherd and requires no real deciding on the shepherd’s part.

Jesus refers to people as being lost or followers, so we all start off lost and some become followers.

 

[BBAS 64]

But why didn't He choose everyone if He is love?

Good Day, Peter

You assume that not choosing everyone is unloving....the weight falls on you.

Some get mercy, some get justice nobody is treated unjustly.... that is not unloving.

Can a loving God send people he created to hell?

in Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

But why didn't He choose everyone if He is love?

Honestly, I think it’s the wrong question. If He loves Himself the most, and in the Godhead is perfect love without sin, why did He choose to love any sinner?

 

[Hammster]

Do you agree to this statement? "Man will be saved because of God. Man will be lost because of man".

At face value, yes.