If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

[zoidar]

They would be His sheep. But they wouldn’t become His sheep.

We don't got the answer if some of them later became followers of Christ.

 

[bling]

So some people have enough good in them to make the saving choice and some don't? Is it a matter of luck, biology, or environment? Take Cain and Abel for example. Same mother and father, same environment. But what was in Cain that caused him to choose evil?

Let's say God makes everything even-steven. There's still a factor at work as to why one chooses what they choose. And here it is: some are the lost sheep of God, and some are the children of the devil.

God alone is sovereign. To Him alone be the glory and the honor forevermore. Amen.

You are building your own strawman, so let us look at what really happens:

No two humans are exactly alike, but they do not have to be for them to be treated equally in the one area which really matters (salvation).

The Bible does not really “address” those who die before having the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love (like an unborn child), so their “fate” is up to God, but I do want to address everyone else which scripture does talk about specifically.

No one has the natural power within themselves to be “good”, which Adam and Eve showed us, and Paul says: “We all sin”. Sin is not the “problem” and our objective is not to never ever sin, since we all sin, but unfortunately sin actually helps the nonbeliever in fulfilling his earthly objective.

God has carefully arranged for every mature adult to have the very best opportunity for them to fulfill their earthly objective, but once they repeatedly reject His Charity to the point of never accepting God’s charity, then they can be used to help others fulfill their objective and can cease to have free will.

You present the choice as “what was in Cain that caused him to choose evil”, when we all chose to do evil. The choice is not between doing “good or evil”, to choose “good” would be noble, righteous, worthy, honorable, glorious, and holy. The choice is between: Hanging in there, being macho. Being willing to pay the piper, taking the punishment you fully deserve and not disturbing your Father with undeserving requests or wimp out, giving up and surrendering to your hated enemy while you still are hating Him, but you are just willing to selfishly humbly accept pure undeserved charity. There is nothing worthy about being willing to humbly accept pure charity. It is only after this willingness to accept the invitation you get to go to the banquet and from there out of a gratitude type of Love for all the gifts showed upon you, the desire to please God is born.

 

[zoidar]

Only sheep believe.. it is what sheep do.

So when we ask why do some not believe..

The answer is because they are not sheep, only His sheep hear his voice... Goats do not because they can not.

joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

In Him,

Bill

A sidenote: Do you know how many years I didn't listen to his voice?

 

[bling]

I challenge anyone to tell me why, in a neutral environment, some choose Christ and other's do not. What is the missing element? There has to be something deep down in a person that determines whether or not that person will exercise faith in Christ. What is it? Who put it there? If it's innate, did that person create themselves? If it's not innate, then where did it come from?

I explained in my post 122.

They choose to be a follower of Christ after they have been showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts including Godly type Love, the birthright to heaven, a purpose in life, fellowship with God’s indwelling Holy Spirit and fellowship with other Christians.

The question should really be: Why do we accept or reject God’s pure charity?

Like the prodigal son turning to the father, we turn to God for unholy selfish reasons (it is never good to be selfish): we just want some kind of undeserving livable life and are not willing to pay the piper.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill, anyone who is born again is his sheep. John 3:16 says anyone can be saved, so.

Good Day, Peter

The text of John 3:16 says the ones believing will have eternal life.

oh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

There is no mention of goats becoming sheep.... we know that sheep believe that is what sheep do because they are sheep.

So what text says that goats can transform into sheep?

In Him

Bill

 

[bling]

When you make a choice you are saying that you prefer that options over other options. What makes you prefer Jesus to Muhammad?
Also the foreknowledge of God proves the errancy of free will. If God knows everything that will happen then no matter what you do you cannot do something that is contrary to the foreknowledge of God. Your will and choices are not free, God knows the choices you will make, the reasons for those choices and you will make those choices no matter what. There is no ifs in foreknowledge.

I explain most of this in my posts 122 and 124.

You bring up “free will” so let me explain:

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. The beings in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Issues:

1. There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.

2. There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).

3. The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .

4. God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.

5. With other theories, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.

6. While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).

 

[BBAS 64]

A sidenote: Do you know how many years I didn't listen to his voice?

Good Day, Peter

I do not know... But The good Shepard always finds his sheep, and they hear his do voice.

and when the times was right you did hear, because you are of His sheep or else you could not of.

Praise God for the Good Shepard of His flock.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Peter

The text of John 3:16 says the ones believing will have eternal life.

oh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

There is no mention of goats becoming sheep.... we know that sheep believe that is what sheep do because they are sheep.

So what text says that goats can transform into sheep?

In Him

Bill

How do you understand the word "world" in "for God did so love the world"?

 

[BobRyan]

I posted this

*sigh*
One, there’s no mention of choice in John 12.

1. John 12:32 says God draws all mankind... not "just those that choose him. so then all are enabled to choose ... which means depravity is not an issue blocking them.
2. Even Calvinists admit that in John 6 the drawing of God enables all the choice that depravity disables. I am ok with that.

Two, let’s look at Romans 2:11. In context.

It shows both the success cases and the failing cases


But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

(the success example)
who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

(now the failing case)
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

(the success example
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(Here God explicitly states that HE is not the one making the difference between success and fail)
For there is no partiality with God.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.— Romans 2:1-13

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul’s argument is that the Jews have no special privilege when it comes to salvation.

More than that - He shows that there are success and failing cases among both Jews and gentiles and that God is not the one determining the case - but the people do.

Instead of "God was partial" it is "God IS not partial" and "God changes not"

Which ends with this --

More than that - He shows that there are success and failing cases among both Jews and gentiles and that God is not the one determining the case - but the people do.

Instead of "God was partial" it is "God IS not partial" and "God changes not"

If you are correct, then God is partial to those who do good. .

Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with

 

[zoidar]

Deleted! Meaningless post, sorry

 

[Hammster]

We don't got the answer if some of them later became followers of Christ.

We know that they are already His sheep because they hear. Goats don’t hear. If they did, He would say so.

 

[Hammster]

A sidenote: Do you know how many years I didn't listen to his voice?

It was 26 for me.

Thankfully


For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
— Luke 19:10

 

[BobRyan]

I posted

The elect cannot resist the grace of God, as there is no part of our salvation dependent on ourselves.

Those who are truly saved will, by the grace of God, persevere to the end, as there is no part of our salvation dependent upon ourselves.

Which is not what we find in 1 Cor 6 or Romans 11

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

All these sorts of warnings and reprimands always point to the danger of not listening to the warning and taking action.

How very different from "no matter what you may choose or wish - if God ordains it, you will persevere and if He does not, you will not persevere -- so just relax and enjoy the ride".

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:11

IF your point is to remind us that the dire warning we see in 1 Cor 6 starting with "do not be deceived" is directed at actual born-again Christians that are in that dire state - we fully agree to that from the start... which is "the point".

you ignore my response and just post "again"

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:11

I put in bold the part you are missing.

Which I already addressed with this


"IF your point is to remind us that the dire warning we see in 1 Cor 6 starting with "do not be deceived" is directed at actual born-again Christians that are in that dire state - we fully agree to that from the start... which is "the point"."

It is THEY that suffer the damage in the text.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


It is THEY who are warned NOT to be decieved into thinking that people that do that - go to heaven anyway.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with

Good Day, Rob

No struggles here with free-will for your further understanding:

From America's foremost theologian.

https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Will-Jonathan-Edwards/dp/1470179768

In Him

Bill

 

[Hammster]

Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with

Free will? Hmm


Well, you brought up Romans (even though your context was wrong). Let’s see if Paul addresses that.


Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:16-18

Yep, we aren’t free. We are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness.

For me, I’m happy to be a slave of righteousness, what you call “a robot”.

 

[Hammster]

I posted



you ignore my response and just post "again"



Which I already addressed with this


"IF your point is to remind us that the dire warning we see in 1 Cor 6 starting with "do not be deceived" is directed at actual born-again Christians that are in that dire state - we fully agree to that from the start... which is "the point"."

It is THEY that suffer the damage in the text.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


It is THEY who are warned NOT to be decieved into thinking that people that do that - go to heaven anyway.

I’m not the one ignoring. You are the one ignoring Paul. Nothing I can do about that, apparently.

 

[BobRyan]

I posted this

*sigh*
One, there’s no mention of choice in John 12.

1. John 12:32 says God draws all mankind... not "just those that choose him. so then all are enabled to choose ... which means depravity is not an issue blocking them.
2. Even Calvinists admit that in John 6 the drawing of God enables all the choice that depravity disables. I am ok with that.

Two, let’s look at Romans 2:11. In context.

It shows both the success cases and the failing cases


But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

(the success example)
who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

(now the failing case)
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

(the success example
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(Here God explicitly states that HE is not the one making the difference between success and fail)
For there is no partiality with God.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.— Romans 2:1-13

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul’s argument is that the Jews have no special privilege when it comes to salvation.

More than that - He shows that there are success and failing cases among both Jews and gentiles and that God is not the one determining the case - but the people do.

Instead of "God was partial" it is "God IS not partial" and "God changes not"

=====================================

Which ends with this --

More than that - He shows that there are success and failing cases among both Jews and gentiles and that God is not the one determining the case - but the people do.

Instead of "God was partial" it is "God IS not partial" and "God changes not"

If you are correct, then God is partial to those who do good. .

Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with

Hi Bill -- you responded with this

Good Day, Rob

No struggles here with free-will for your further understanding:

From America's foremost theologian.

https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Will-Jonathan-Edwards/dp/1470179768

In Him

Bill

My post above ends with this --

=======================================

If you are correct, then God is partial to those who do good. .

Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with
===============================

So then - question to Bill: What point does your post make to address it?? (Since that is the post you just responded to)

 

[BobRyan]

I keep posting Paul's statment in 1Cor 6 and you respond with ???

I’m not the one ignoring. You are the one ignoring Paul. Nothing I can do about that, apparently.

I find that logic in that response "illusive" given my insistance that you look at the very part of 1 Cor 6 that I keep posting even as I show you that what you are posting is not helping your case - since in fact it is precisely my point that it is to those who ARE born again saints that the dire warning is given.

if they had NOT ever been born again - it would still be in line with "calvinism" the fact that they WERE born again destroys the Calvinist argument. You keep reposting that text "as if it is helping" your argument without actually showing how it helps your point.

Why keep doing that?

 

[Hammster]

I posted this


Hi Bill -- you responded with this



My post above ends with this --



Well first of all the logic in that is somewhat hard to find - because it would be like saying that the teachers are partial to students that get all the answers right - because they give them A's. That does not fit the definition of partial. It is hard to see how it makes sense at all.

But what I am saying is that ALL get the "teacher's assistant" - the Holy Spirit - to help each student on the test. Those students that ignore that assistant do poorly. Since the Holy Spirit is "all powerful" there is no amount of "sin has designed/created that student wrong" to overcome the all powerful Holy Spirit.

But there is "choice"... free will. The non-robotize element that Calvinism struggles with
===============================

What point does your post make to address it?

Who are you addressing? Your post is quite confusing.

 

[Hammster]

I keep posting Paul's statment in 1Cor 6 and you respond with ???

Right. Because you chose to ignore all he said to fit your tradition. I can’t do anything about that.