• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

if Harry Potter were real he would be going to hell

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jul 13, 2011
129
8
✟22,802.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
< staff edit > You have steadily refused to respond to posts that directly quote the author's intent for the series, posts that speak to the issue of the difference between pretend magic and the "sorcery" spoken about in the Bible, posts that point out that people can read books like Harry Potter and still be in service to the Lord, etc. Your argument is lacking because you haven't studied what you are condemning. It is a flaw. It is one thing to read something and make an educated argument against it, it is another thing to not read something and make a flawed argument against it.
can I tell you something you seem to overlook as even most people involved in witchcraft overlook, Its not specific formulas, or recipes that give witchcraft its power, you would be naive to believe the eye of newt, and a bats wing are what bring forth the dark powers, Just as the 7 sons of sceva found out the name of Jesus was not enough to protect them, Its the faith that brings the power, both to those who acknowledge Jesus as Savior and Lord, Which has ALL power and authority over all darkness and demons and also to those who put their faith in these forms of witchcraft by demonic power their faith activates it. Thus when a novice attempts witchcraft and has no faith at all his concoction and ritual will succeed, it won't and like an earlier poster who simply believes their is no power in the satanic realm, he will say I tried it, its useless it doesn't work. This is also VERY VERY TRUE for those who said I prayed to God He never answered me, I never felt His presence or His love, its all phoney their is no God and His Son Jesus, I tried that christianity thing it didn't work for me...........ITS ALL BASED ON FAITH! and if someone were to decide to pick a power, Its the power of Jesus blood that breaks apart ALL WORKS OF DARKNESS! just as the rock hitting the statue, they all fall down at the same time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
71,185
7,966
Western New York
✟163,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
can I tell you something you seem to overlook as even most people involved in witchcraft overlook, Its not specific formulas, or recipes that give witchcraft its power, you would be naive to believe the eye of newt, and a bats wing are what bring forth the dark powers, Just as the 7 sons of sceva found out the name of Jesus was not enough to protect them, Its the faith that brings the power, both to those who acknowledge Jesus as Savior and Lord, Which has ALL power and authority over all darkness and demons and also to those who put their faith in these forms of witchcraft by demonic power their faith activates it. Thus when a novice attempts witchcraft and has no faith at all his concoction and ritual will succeed, it won't and like an earlier poster who simply believes their is no power in the satanic realm, he will say I tried it, its useless it doesn't work. This is also VERY VERY TRUE for those who said I prayed to God He never answered me, I never felt His presence or His love, its all phoney their is no God and His Son Jesus, I tried that christianity thing it didn't work for me...........ITS ALL BASED ON FAITH! and if someone were to decide to pick a power, Its the power of Jesus blood that breaks apart ALL WORKS OF DARKNESS! just as the rock hitting the statue, they all fall down at the same time.

You could say the same thing to just about anyone, on just about any topic! If someone wanted to delve into the supernatural, they will, whether they have read Harry Potter or not. Harry Potter is just a fictional story with no power at all. I know hundreds and hundreds of kids who have read Harry Potter and have no inkling, whatsoever, to dabble. If someone does, it is coincidence, and they would have done so anyway, even had they not read it.

And you are still overlooking the fact that those who do dabble in the supernatural in real life use it as a religion. Harry Potter and crew did not. It was a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 13, 2011
129
8
✟22,802.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You could say the same thing to just about anyone, on just about any topic! If someone wanted to delve into the supernatural, they will, whether they have read Harry Potter or not. Harry Potter is just a fictional story with no power at all. I know hundreds and hundreds of kids who have read Harry Potter and have no inkling, whatsoever, to dabble. If someone does, it is coincidence, and they would have done so anyway, even had they not read it.

And you are still overlooking the fact that those who do dabble in the supernatural in real life use it as a religion. Harry Potter and crew did not. It was a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.
So you are saying reading the book or watching a HP movie will in no way shape or form cause or interest anyone into witchcraft and sorcery, AND IF IT DOES ITS A COINIDENCE.........ha ha ha ........OK!....if thats what you want to believe, I'm sorry to inform you nothing could be farther from reality, it appears your reading fantasy novels has pulled you in the fantasy world itself, ALL MEDIAS INFLUENCE CULTURE AND THE WORLD AROUND THEM! THIS IS A FACT! and it is unrefutable.
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Have you read all of 2 Peter 2? It is talking about the most heinous people. Anyway, not all who claim to be saved, are saved. Some think that they are saved, and might have had an emotional reaction to hearing the gospel, but are not truly saved in their heart, and turn back to their natural ways. Not all who cry "Lord, Lord" are Christ's. Those that endure to the end in the faith are those whose hearts were turned by God and saved by Christ.

Im not really understanding you.:confused:

Peter clearly explained to us that it is possible for a Christian to willingly choose to return to their sinful lifestyle even after they have known Jesus Christ. This is basically the same teachings the author of Hebrews states:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26-27

Once saved, always saved doctrine is only true provided that one remains in Jesus Christ. Nobody can claim to be saved if they continue sinning even after receiving the knowledge of God.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mark 13:13

...and yes, it is very possible for a person to lose their salvation. The LORD can easily blot out the name of anyone written in the Book of Life should they continue living in sin. So even if one has been saved earlier, he can still lose his gift of salvation.

"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it." Ezekiel 33:13
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
71,185
7,966
Western New York
✟163,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Im not really understanding you.:confused:

Peter clearly explained to us that it is possible for a Christian to willingly choose to return to their sinful lifestyle even after they have known Jesus Christ. This is basically the same teachings the author of Hebrews states:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26-27

Once saved, always saved doctrine is only true provided that one remains in Jesus Christ. Nobody can claim to be saved if they continue sinning even after receiving the knowledge of God.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mark 13:13

...and yes, it is very possible for a person to lose their salvation. The LORD can easily blot out the name of anyone written in the Book of Life should they continue living in sin. So even if one has been saved earlier, he can still lose his gift of salvation.

"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it." Ezekiel 33:13

Perhaps you can go to Soteriology and join in the myriads of threads that discuss this issue. This thread is not the place. :)
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
71,185
7,966
Western New York
✟163,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So you are saying reading the book or watching a HP movie will in no way shape or form cause or interest anyone into witchcraft and sorcery, AND IF IT DOES ITS A COINIDENCE.........ha ha ha ........OK!....if thats what you want to believe, I'm sorry to inform you nothing could be farther from reality, it appears your reading fantasy novels has pulled you in the fantasy world itself, ALL MEDIAS INFLUENCE CULTURE AND THE WORLD AROUND THEM! THIS IS A FACT! and it is unrefutable.

Media cannot create magic in a world where no magic exists. Sorry.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 13, 2011
129
8
✟22,802.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Citations, por favor. I don't see any such thing.

I also believe that the Bible says about him, that he's the father of lies. I'm not one of the folks who says "Oh yeah, he's a liar, but he's telling the truth about his powers.". Nick says it, and y'all spread the word for him. Congratulations.

In other words, he can pass himself off as someone he isn't. Dang,I wouldn't expect the Fathe of Lies to do anything lie that, would I?

The Scripture doesn't say that it was done with anyone else's power, does it?

She had a spirit of divination, right enough, that told fortunes. So are we to believe that every forture teller can actually see the future? You'll note that the Bible does not say that she could actually tell the future, only that she told fortunes. You infer that she was given power by demons based solely on your own superstition.

Magical power? Not a bit of it. That's simply superstition talking.

quote], demon possession as if satan and his demons are powerless here on earth,
Not powerless, but not, as you appear to believe, little negative gods who can essentially do anything. That's simply superstition.
Can the grant people magical powers? The Bible doesn't say so. Can they foretell the future? The Bible doesn't say so. Can they be in many places at once, as many appear to believe? The Bibel doesn't say so. The trick is that the source of such silly, syncretistic, and essentially pagan, notions is not the BIble at all, but culturally based superstitions.

Anyone with access to the right weapons systems can "call down fire from heaven" in this day and time. And the there is no "the Antichrist" in the Bible, is there? ;)

Fact is, you're peddling superstition and trying to make it sound Biblical. In fact, it is false, and thus diabolical. You're unwittingly acting as a propagandist for the enemy.[/quote]...........................................................
Ok! I will point out some passages and you can try to twist your superstition and slight of hand as being the cause of what the bible clearly depicts as caused by satan or demons.........did the demons enter the pigs and cause them to run down the steep bank into the lake and die in the water...(Mathew 8:30,32) or (Mathew 9:32,33) a demon was in a man causing him to be mute, as soon as the demon is cast out the man we are told has the ability to speak. (Mathew 17:15-18) the boy has a demon and it causes seizures and he often falls into the fire and water, casting out the demon the boy is healed....Luke 13:11 "And a woman was there who had been crippled BY A SPIRIT for eighteen years. She was bent over and couldn't straighten up at all" Jesus healed her and she was able to straighten up, Jesus set her free from the spirit that bound her, and a few verses latter we see it was satan who held her in this bondage for eighteen years.............................So I will be interested to see how you relate these incidents to be sheer acts of superstition, or did these demons use their power to afflict people with sickness and disease, with all sorts of seizures, and muteness, they can go inside of animals and cause them to kill themselves, I would imagine that if they can manifest in these ways, as we also see satan entering Judas and working inside him to do what scripture already declared. your powerless underworld doesn't seem to hold water in the light of plain and simple to read scripture, I won't even get into the book of Job. as its a testimony of testing that would scare most Christians
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
here is something
this is just me
but as a kid
I was more interested in the occult and demonology before I read Harry Potter then I was after I read it
I did not want to be a witch or to summon demons, but I did like to learn about the darker stuff
I have always been interested in mythology and religion and folklore and stories

before I read Harry Potter I was much more into the darker stuff, learning about voodoo and demons and alchemy (alchemy is not dark but is very close to "new age" and can be dangerous to learn about)
after Harry Potter I have been much more interested in fiction and folklore in general
that is just me
I am not saying it will be like this for everyone
also because I knew a bit about wicca and demonology and medieval witchcraft I knew that what was described in Harry Potter was not a description of modern wiccan (which focuses on getting power from the earth and nature spirits) or medieval witchcraft (which focuses on demons and selling the soul)
now there are little tidbits taken out fo folklore, like the "hand of glory" in a shop used by evil wizards, hands of glory were really made in the medieval and early modern times as a tailmen to help theives
 
Upvote 0

ToBeInChrist

Newbie
Jul 13, 2011
763
24
✟23,548.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I wonder then if the decision to read fantasy stories ought to be left to the individual. This is along the lines found in Romans 14 where Paul writes that each individual is responsible for what they take in, but they ought to take care not to cause a brother to stumble.

I think there are degrees of influence, degrees of error that need to be considered. When I read a book written by a Christian, I have to filter some stuff out as non-Biblical, merely opinion, irrelevant, or misinterpretation, or worldly influence.

====

With Lewis' Narnia and Space Trilogy, there are a few areas that should be filtered out as unfortunate decisions on Lewis' part, as a Christian author. On the positive side, Lewis does do some theological exploration on the subject of why magic is evil, and how miracles or the actions of naturally gifted beings with secret knowledge approved by God may operate. In The Magician's Nephew, the magician is clearly presented as an evil man -- he manipulates formula to utilize secret knowledge, it is forbidden, he is not guided by God to do it, his motives are bad, his character is evil. The witch he meets, by way of comparison, is demonic, she is not a child of Eve, she naturally has various magical powers and finds the magician's technical manipulations to be inferior. Both are clearly shown to be evil characters who ought not be emulated. On the other hand, in Dawn Treader there is a being on an island who is actually a star, a spiritual being of some kind, who has a book containing formulae; various creatures have natural abilities that are magical but they aren't evil, and they aren't human. In the instance of the star, one of the girls is tempted to use one of the formulae against Aslan's warnings -- she almost falls. Unfortunately, centaurs do astrology, but they are not human, they are not on earth, and they may simply be able to communicate with star beings, it isn't presented as ordinary astrology, they somehow discern what the stars are saying; I wish it was presented better theologically, or avoided. Also unfortunately, there is a wise-man advisor to Caspian who may engage in forbidden arts, and I don't see any theological dealing with the subject, any presentation of concerns about his activities; but he isn't exactly a wizard, it's hard to say just how much of a wizard or occultist he may be; I wish it was clearer for the sake of not encouraging what is forbidden, but on the other hand, it isn't a clear encouragement of anything forbidden, I don't think. And in these cases, these are not major characters, the advisor is not set up as a major hero, and the centaurs, not being humans, may simply be able to communicate with such beings as the star on the island. Also in Space Trilogy there is communication with angels who preside over planets that I wish was handled just a little bit differently, to distance the worldview and speculation more away from certain hermetic and medieval speculations, to reduce the possibility of rationalizing or encouraging such things. In Space Trilogy Merlin, who was frozen asleep, is brought out of sleep and is used to take down an evil organization with the help of these angels from the planets, but on the positive side, he is sternly rebuked for dabbling in forbidden techniques and abilities; Merlin is called to repent and sanctify his ability to be guided by spiritual beings and act with various powers, by submitting himself to God's limits. In these handful of unfortunate cases where one may possibly be lead to rationalize or glorify dubious or forbidden explorations, there is also on the positive side, theological exploration and speculation about how and why various acts are immoral or forbidden, for spiritual beings or mankind or for other beings God might create, and concern for acting according to God's direction, obediently.

Lewis briefly incluse mention of various mythological beings and gods in Narnia. He clearly represents them as mere creatures with natural abilities and functions according to God's direction. Lewis in a few instances is very near the line of orthodox speculation. He could have refrained, and it would have strengthened his books, made them more suitable for Christian enjoyment. He includes a character who gazes into a lake to see visions, refering to this as an art. He isn't a major hero, but as a minor character he plays a positive role, and this along with the Centaurs who read the stars, are among the few major gaffes by Lewis. Lewis's work would have been better if he played a little more cautious, deciding to hover less near that boundary of orthodox speculation, to reign in a bit. That said, when he wanders near that line, he does present theological food for thought about the line, and often raises the theological issues into awareness.

So Lewis' issues are similar to the issues found in conventional folk-tales. Sometimes speculation about the lives of various beings gets to be dubious. But on the other hand, like conventional folk-tales, witches and sorcerers are presented as evil characters, though various unusual beings have powers and people sometimes dabble with the forbidden and come through by the skin of their teeth.

======

Both Lewis and conventional folk-tales are sometimes too casual about forbidden speculation and forbidden practices. Handled with care and filtering, a Christian may benefit from some of the stories. Lewis is far more cautious than many conventional folk-tales when dealing with such issues. Lewis' fiction is far more edifying for a Christian than Grimm Fairytales. Like Beowulf and Spencer's The Faerie Queen, there is caution against magic and enchantment, fighting against evil beings, and encouragement of virtues, and Christian references, but unlike these works there is more specifically Christian theological speculation going on.

======

Tolkein features Gandalf as a major character. On the positive side, Gandalf is actually an angel of sorts who comes to earth, in Tolkein's world, and just about all humans who crave, seek, or use magical incantations/power are shown to be warped by it, not to be emulated. Unfortunately, elves and dwarves and these angel-like beings like Gandalf do use incantations and secret arts to harness natural powers, and this does glamorize such things as using magical crystals or magical runes. A serious problem for Tolkein is the Silmarilion, which features a gnostic-like creation account, where various angel-like beings (of a higher order than Gandalf) are in charge of various aspects of creation, much like that found in pagan myth, and like gnostic speculation, the evil angel-like being who falls has creative powers. Tolkein crosses a line that Lewis does not. Lewis hovers the line of orthodoxy in his speculative fiction, which is problematic but not a fatal flaw. Tolkein crosses the line and in the Silmarillion he presents rank heresy as entertainment. The Lord of the Rings itself doesn't go into the details of the back-story of the Silmarillion, at least. Tolkien doesn't use such speculations and alternate world situations to explore theological questions, and when there are theological aspects to his speculation, it is reminiscent of heretical qabalistic/hermetic/gnostic speculation, involving a worldview where many created beings do the creation work for God. If it weren't for the Silmarillion and the heretical quazi-qabalistic/gnostic speculations involved in the background creation story and history of Middle Earth that lies behind The Lord of the Rings, it would be more like Beowulf and Faerie Queen.

=====

With Potter and Twilight, magic, blood-drinking, etc., is sensationalized, the enchanters who do incantations or vampires or werewolves are major heroes, and these subjects are pervasive. This makes a serious difference to me. Why do I want to watch something where the 'heroes' are involved with such evil? The main human (or once human) characters and heroes do magic, they use incantations, they talk to the dead, they use runes, etc. The author of Potter admits that 1/3 of the magical material traces to real historical and folk material on magic. And it is presented as positive. It IS the story, it IS the heroes. Glamorization of magic powers and techniques and learning, all through. Forbidden studies are 'good' in this 'alternative world'... VERY difficult to filter out all that is wrong with this. Our hearts urge us to agree with what we find entertaining, to approve, to laugh, to treat it casually, to endorse it, to excuse it. No such constraints as those found in Lewis or Tolkein. And as far as unorthodox speculation goes, Potter and Twilight not only present decidedly non-orthodox spiritual worlds (a problem with Tolkein's Silmarillion, where evil angel-like beings are said to have creative powers, and there are various angel-like beings which are co-creators), Potter and Twilight are re-visionist about what is good or evil: they decidedly take the stand of denying that that which is evil is evil, no, they do more, they call that which is evil to be good.

However, why must the mentality be that Christians who chose to read Harry Potter and LOTR for their stories aren't following Christ? I don't think our salvation is dependent on what we read or do not read.

As a heart-issue, we should want to steer ourselves more into what God loves/approves of, and away from what God hates/disaproves of. Lewis' Space Trilogy and Narnia could be improved in a few areas, filtered in a few areas, and be quite positive fantasy speculation. Tolkein and traditional fairy-tales require a bit more filtering, but at least in the best stories the main heroes are trying to be freed from evil wizards and witches, and magic is presented as dangerous for people to dabble in, something forbidden that evil enemies use.

Harry Potter -- why encourage the heart to enjoy such things, that is the challenge I'm putting out there. The other fantasy materials one should be careful with and filter, and yet the best of them don't encourage humans to seek to become a wizard but rather warn of the danger, don't present vampires or werewolves as beings to sympathize with or to emulate, don't encourage conversations with ghosts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

wannabeadesigirl

Regular Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,501
128
37
✟24,794.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Green
Tobe that's probably the most believeable arguement against HP, and one I used for awhile, and then I spent some time with some neopagans. Their rituals, spells and sabbats are a far cry from the brief monosyllabic spells presented in HP.

Also, what is keeping us from filtering, as you put it, the good things from HP? It's undeniable that HP and co are brave, the books reiterate the belief that our backgrounds are not what make us who we are, but rather our choices.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeInChrist

Newbie
Jul 13, 2011
763
24
✟23,548.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Tobe that's probably the most believeable arguement against HP, and one I used for awhile, and then I spent some time with some neopagans. Their rituals, spells and sabbats are a far cry from the brief monosyllabic spells presented in HP.

I was involved with various types of occultism. There are different systems and conventions. It sounds like your argument is something like this: because Harry may use a simple one-word spell with a simple object, and you saw neopagans with an intricate religious ceremony using mental techniques and a metaphysical philosophy, it's apples and oranges.

First of all, many neo-pagans or wiccans do use simple techniques which are rather unsophisticated, gathering spells from traditional folk material or using simple objects in meditation.

Secondly, not all occultists, witches, etc., are neopagans or wiccans.

Thirdly, enchanting others with incantations or potions, consulting astrology, doing sorcery, raising up ghosts to speak with them, observing omens, all of this is forbidden in Scripture, without reference to the specific technique one may use or the tradition or system that serves as the framework or context.

Also, what is keeping us from filtering, as you put it, the good things from HP? It's undeniable that HP and co are brave, the books reiterate the belief that our backgrounds are not what make us who we are, but rather our choices.

If I'm in a waiting room and it's on the TV and I have to stay, I'll do my best to filter it.

I want to steer my choices away from such media, though, as a general principle.
 
Upvote 0

SonOfTheWest

Britpack
Sep 26, 2010
1,765
66
United Kingdom
✟24,861.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Labour
I think there are degrees of influence, degrees of error that need to be considered. When I read a book written by a Christian, I have to filter some stuff out as non-Biblical, merely opinion, irrelevant, or misinterpretation, or worldly influence.

====

With Lewis' Narnia and Space Trilogy, there are a few areas that should be filtered out as unfortunate decisions on Lewis' part, as a Christian author. On the positive side, Lewis does do some theological exploration on the subject of why magic is evil, and how miracles or the actions of naturally gifted beings with secret knowledge approved by God may operate. In The Magician's Nephew, the magician is clearly presented as an evil man -- he manipulates formula to utilize secret knowledge, it is forbidden, he is not guided by God to do it, his motives are bad, his character is evil. The witch he meets, by way of comparison, is demonic, she is not a child of Eve, she naturally has various magical powers and finds the magician's technical manipulations to be inferior. Both are clearly shown to be evil characters who ought not be emulated. On the other hand, in Dawn Treader there is a being on an island who is actually a star, a spiritual being of some kind, who has a book containing formulae; various creatures have natural abilities that are magical but they aren't evil, and they aren't human. In the instance of the star, one of the girls is tempted to use one of the formulae against Aslan's warnings -- she almost falls. Unfortunately, centaurs do astrology, but they are not human, they are not on earth, and they may simply be able to communicate with star beings, it isn't presented as ordinary astrology, they somehow discern what the stars are saying; I wish it was presented better theologically, or avoided. Also unfortunately, there is a wise-man advisor to Caspian who may engage in forbidden arts, and I don't see any theological dealing with the subject, any presentation of concerns about his activities; but he isn't exactly a wizard, it's hard to say just how much of a wizard or occultist he may be; I wish it was clearer for the sake of not encouraging what is forbidden, but on the other hand, it isn't a clear encouragement of anything forbidden, I don't think. And in these cases, these are not major characters, the advisor is not set up as a major hero, and the centaurs, not being humans, may simply be able to communicate with such beings as the star on the island. Also in Space Trilogy there is communication with angels who preside over planets that I wish was handled just a little bit differently, to distance the worldview and speculation more away from certain hermetic and medieval speculations, to reduce the possibility of rationalizing or encouraging such things. In Space Trilogy Merlin, who was frozen asleep, is brought out of sleep and is used to take down an evil organization with the help of these angels from the planets, but on the positive side, he is sternly rebuked for dabbling in forbidden techniques and abilities; Merlin is called to repent and sanctify his ability to be guided by spiritual beings and act with various powers, by submitting himself to God's limits. In these handful of unfortunate cases where one may possibly be lead to rationalize or glorify dubious or forbidden explorations, there is also on the positive side, theological exploration and speculation about how and why various acts are immoral or forbidden, for spiritual beings or mankind or for other beings God might create, and concern for acting according to God's direction, obediently.

Lewis briefly incluse mention of various mythological beings and gods in Narnia. He clearly represents them as mere creatures with natural abilities and functions according to God's direction. Lewis in a few instances is very near the line of orthodox speculation. He could have refrained, and it would have strengthened his books, made them more suitable for Christian enjoyment. He includes a character who gazes into a lake to see visions, refering to this as an art. He isn't a major hero, but as a minor character he plays a positive role, and this along with the Centaurs who read the stars, are among the few major gaffes by Lewis. Lewis's work would have been better if he played a little more cautious, deciding to hover less near that boundary of orthodox speculation, to reign in a bit. That said, when he wanders near that line, he does present theological food for thought about the line, and often raises the theological issues into awareness.

So Lewis' issues are similar to the issues found in conventional folk-tales. Sometimes speculation about the lives of various beings gets to be dubious. But on the other hand, like conventional folk-tales, witches and sorcerers are presented as evil characters, though various unusual beings have powers and people sometimes dabble with the forbidden and come through by the skin of their teeth.

======

Both Lewis and conventional folk-tales are sometimes too casual about forbidden speculation and forbidden practices. Handled with care and filtering, a Christian may benefit from some of the stories. Lewis is far more cautious than many conventional folk-tales when dealing with such issues. Lewis' fiction is far more edifying for a Christian than Grimm Fairytales. Like Beowulf and Spencer's The Faerie Queen, there is caution against magic and enchantment, fighting against evil beings, and encouragement of virtues, and Christian references, but unlike these works there is more specifically Christian theological speculation going on.

======

Tolkein features Gandalf as a major character. On the positive side, Gandalf is actually an angel of sorts who comes to earth, in Tolkein's world, and just about all humans who crave, seek, or use magical incantations/power are shown to be warped by it, not to be emulated. Unfortunately, elves and dwarves and these angel-like beings like Gandalf do use incantations and secret arts to harness natural powers, and this does glamorize such things as using magical crystals or magical runes. A serious problem for Tolkein is the Silmarilion, which features a gnostic-like creation account, where various angel-like beings (of a higher order than Gandalf) are in charge of various aspects of creation, much like that found in pagan myth, and like gnostic speculation, the evil angel-like being who falls has creative powers. Tolkein crosses a line that Lewis does not. Lewis hovers the line of orthodoxy in his speculative fiction, which is problematic but not a fatal flaw. Tolkein crosses the line and in the Silmarillion he presents rank heresy as entertainment. The Lord of the Rings itself doesn't go into the details of the back-story of the Silmarillion, at least. Tolkien doesn't use such speculations and alternate world situations to explore theological questions, and when there are theological aspects to his speculation, it is reminiscent of heretical qabalistic/hermetic/gnostic speculation, involving a worldview where many created beings do the creation work for God. If it weren't for the Silmarillion and the heretical quazi-qabalistic/gnostic speculations involved in the background creation story and history of Middle Earth that lies behind The Lord of the Rings, it would be more like Beowulf and Faerie Queen.

=====

With Potter and Twilight, magic, blood-drinking, etc., is sensationalized, the enchanters who do incantations or vampires or werewolves are major heroes, and these subjects are pervasive. This makes a serious difference to me. Why do I want to watch something where the 'heroes' are involved with such evil? The main human (or once human) characters and heroes do magic, they use incantations, they talk to the dead, they use runes, etc. The author of Potter admits that 1/3 of the magical material traces to real historical and folk material on magic. And it is presented as positive. It IS the story, it IS the heroes. Glamorization of magic powers and techniques and learning, all through. Forbidden studies are 'good' in this 'alternative world'... VERY difficult to filter out all that is wrong with this. Our hearts urge us to agree with what we find entertaining, to approve, to laugh, to treat it casually, to endorse it, to excuse it. No such constraints as those found in Lewis or Tolkein. And as far as unorthodox speculation goes, Potter and Twilight not only present decidedly non-orthodox spiritual worlds (a problem with Tolkein's Silmarillion, where evil angel-like beings are said to have creative powers, and there are various angel-like beings which are co-creators), Potter and Twilight are re-visionist about what is good or evil: they decidedly take the stand of denying that that which is evil is evil, no, they do more, they call that which is evil to be good.



As a heart-issue, we should want to steer ourselves more into what God loves/approves of, and away from what God hates/disaproves of. Lewis' Space Trilogy and Narnia could be improved in a few areas, filtered in a few areas, and be quite positive fantasy speculation. Tolkein and traditional fairy-tales require a bit more filtering, but at least in the best stories the main heroes are trying to be freed from evil wizards and witches, and magic is presented as dangerous for people to dabble in, something forbidden that evil enemies use.

Harry Potter -- why encourage the heart to enjoy such things, that is the challenge I'm putting out there. The other fantasy materials one should be careful with and filter, and yet the best of them don't encourage humans to seek to become a wizard but rather warn of the danger, don't present vampires or werewolves as beings to sympathize with or to emulate, don't encourage conversations with ghosts.

< staff edit >. Personally I've found Tolkien to be a bit boring. I never got into Lewis.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

wannabeadesigirl

Regular Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,501
128
37
✟24,794.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Green
I don't enjoy stories that try to say something is good when God says it is abominable.

The magic in harry potter is neutral however, and can be used by good folk or bad folk...to varying degrees of success and different consequences...
 
Upvote 0

LinuxUser

Well-Known Member
Jun 1, 2011
1,018
83
in a house :)
✟1,655.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't enjoy stories that try to say something is good when God says it is abominable.
The problem is you the individual must interpret what that is. Many seem to forget the bible was written not in English but when they see the words in English they than assume that is what it really says instead of really finding out.

Many have taken time to tell others that the Bible does not say what those who go off the English assume it does.
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
71,185
7,966
Western New York
✟163,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
With Potter and Twilight, magic, blood-drinking, etc., is sensationalized, the enchanters who do incantations or vampires or werewolves are major heroes, and these subjects are pervasive. This makes a serious difference to me. Why do I want to watch something where the 'heroes' are involved with such evil? The main human (or once human) characters and heroes do magic, they use incantations, they talk to the dead, they use runes, etc. The author of Potter admits that 1/3 of the magical material traces to real historical and folk material on magic. And it is presented as positive. It IS the story, it IS the heroes. Glamorization of magic powers and techniques and learning, all through. Forbidden studies are 'good' in this 'alternative world'... VERY difficult to filter out all that is wrong with this. Our hearts urge us to agree with what we find entertaining, to approve, to laugh, to treat it casually, to endorse it, to excuse it. No such constraints as those found in Lewis or Tolkein. And as far as unorthodox speculation goes, Potter and Twilight not only present decidedly non-orthodox spiritual worlds (a problem with Tolkein's Silmarillion, where evil angel-like beings are said to have creative powers, and there are various angel-like beings which are co-creators), Potter and Twilight are re-visionist about what is good or evil: they decidedly take the stand of denying that that which is evil is evil, no, they do more, they call that which is evil to be good.

Since this thread (at least the title) is about Harry Potter, I'm going to stick with discussing that and not the others that have been brought in, except I would like to point out that C. S. Lewis is an Anglican theologian and The Chronicles of Narnia were written to introduce the Bible to children. And the magic in Narnia is pervasive. Except for the first chapter where the kids are introduced, the books are filled with magic, and the major character, Aslan, uses the deep magic from before the beginning of time.

As for what you are saying here, I have to disagree with just about all of it. In the Harry Potter books, magic is what you are born with, like an arm or a leg. You don't seek it out. You have it or you don't. It is a tool. What is hard for people to understand about this? You go to magic school not because it is glamorous, but to learn to control your ability. Do some people use it for bad? Yes, they do, but IRL, people use their hands for evil, too. Within the world of magic, there are forbidden studies, and the protagonists do not use any of those, even when fighting against the antagonists. This is the problem with those who do not read Harry Potter but insist on arguing against it. There is a lot going on in HP that will show you that it is just an alternate reality where magic coexists with Christianity, to the extent that the wizards, themselves (the ones on the side of good), are Christian. It is only in your imagination that they stand for evil or call evil good.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: LinuxUser
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.